Draconid Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) Hi everyone! I'm really new here - I've just completed White, and have been trying to design a solid team for the Doubles metagame so that I can take a stab at playing competitively. I want to make sure that I'm headed in the right direction first before attempting to build this team in game from scratch, which is why I need your help. So let's get to the team. At a Glance In-Depth Tyranitar @ Chople Berry Ability: Sand Stream EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant Nature - Rock Slide - Crunch - Superpower - Protect By far my favourite weather setter. Tyranitar is the crux of the team, allowing Excadrill to sweep with Sand Rush, and to function as a sweeper under both Tailwind and Trick room. Chople Berry allows Tyranitar to tank a hit from the several fighting types that pervade the metagame, and the 252/252/4 EV spread simplifies IV breeding, which is something I've applied to each Pokemon here to save time on team building. Pretty standard move set here, with Superpower allowing Tyranitar to take on threats like Hydreigon with greater ease. Excadrill @ Life Orb Ability: Sand Rush EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Earthquake - Rock Slide - X-Scissor - Protect Sand sweeper. Very self-explanatory set, with X-Scissor as coverage. Excadrill would typically be conserved for late-game, while the rest of the team clear out any potential hazards and have Tyranitar set up sandstorm. I have a suspicion that Excadrill would be too dependent on sandstorm that his role in the team in Trick Room/Tailwind modes would be inflexible, so if you have any other suggestions as to whom might be able to replace him, let me know. Salamence @ Haban Berry Ability: Intimidate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest Nature - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Tailwind - Protect Best type synergy with Tyranitar/Excadrill out of all available Dragons. Tailwind setter. Haban berry allows Salamence to function as somewhat of a counter to Kingdra, especially under Sandstorm/Tailwind/Trick Room conditions. Intimidate means that the team have an easier time against physical threats, and Salamence's flying type makes it an excellent partner for an Excadrill sweep. Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem Ability: Intimidate EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant Nature - Fake Out - Close Combat - Feint - Wide Guard One of the best offensive support Pokemon available. Fake Out makes for a more efficient Trick Room/Tailwind set up, Feint makes sweeping easier, Fighting Gem Close Combat handles Tyranitar, Wide Guard blocks opposing Earthquakes, Rock Slides, Muddy Water etc... The list goes on. Oh, and it's also got intimidate. Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Effect Spore EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Sassy Nature IVs: 0 Spe - Spore - Rage Powder - Giga Drain - Protect Another fantastic support Pokemon. Amoonguss provides redirection and sleep support for all team members, giving Tyranitar and Excadrill a way to deal with Fighting types in Rage Powder, which also allows Jellicent to set up Trick Room much more easily. Sitrus Berry allows it to stay on the field for a little longer, giving it more time to offer redirection support. All-round great little mushroom. Jellicent @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Water Absorb EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA Quiet Nature IVs: 0 Spe - Trick Room - Scald - Shadow Ball - Protect Trick Room setter immune to Fake out, Rain check and Fighting type counter. Jellicent is mainly here as a counter to Rain, and to offer another form of speed control that supports nearly every member of the team. There's not much else to say here. Threats Rain The most threatening weather to sand. I would usually respond to rain teams with Jellicent+Amoonguss in order to set up TR, taking Pelipper out with Tyranitar, and handling Kingdra with Salamence. All of which are very shaky counters, so I'd appreciate some advice on how to go about beating it. Bisharp Having two Pokemon with intimidate on the team leaves me wide open to Bisharp's Defiant, allowing it to cut through the bulk of my team if I don't handle it quickly enough. Ideas for Team Changes --> / These three Steel Pokemon are all floating around the same spot for me. Excadrill has a number of flaws, namely that he can only safely Earthquake next to Salamence, and that he needs Sandstorm to be up to function properly. Bisharp on the other hand doesn't need the field to be cleared to threaten the opponent, he thrives in Sand/TR/TW, threatens Kingdra with Sucker Punch, and effectively removes the threat of opposing Intimidate. Ferrothorn too provides another check to Rain, and doesn't require any set ups to exert pressure on the field. I'm leaning toward Bisharp, what do you think? Bisharp Spoiler Bisharp @ Dark Gem / Life Orb Ability: Defiant EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant Nature - Sucker Punch - Night Slash / Low Kick - Iron Head - Protect Ferrothorn Spoiler Ferrothorn @ Leftovers Ability: Iron Barbs EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD Brave Nature IVs: 0 Spe - Power Whip - Gyro Ball - Leech Seed - Protect Importable Spoiler Tyranitar @ Chople Berry Ability: Sand Stream EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant Nature - Rock Slide - Crunch - Superpower - Protect Excadrill @ Life Orb Ability: Sand Rush EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Earthquake - Rock Slide - X-Scissor - Protect Salamence @ Haban Berry Ability: Intimidate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Draco Meteor - Fire Blast - Tailwind - Protect Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem Ability: Intimidate EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant Nature - Fake Out - Close Combat - Feint - Wide Guard Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Effect Spore EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Sassy Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Spore - Rage Powder - Giga Drain - Protect Jellicent @ Mental Herb Ability: Water Absorb EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA Quiet Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Trick Room - Scald - Shadow Ball - Protect Edited July 28, 2019 by Draconid pictures not loading Lin 1 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) I think the team in general is very solid. Amoonguss took a huge hit in terms of viability after the implementation of Sleep Clause to Doubles metagame in PokeMMO, so it's nowhere near as good and useful as it is in other platforms, e.g. VGC. The main usefulness to Amoonguss in that team is Rage Powder to redirect Fight-attacks but Exca/TTar are weak to so many spread moves (Muddy Water/Earthquake, etc.) I think your team did a pretty fine job trying to counter rain teams which you're right to say are a huge pain to Sand teams, Jellicent for example is a very creative Pokemon that definitely performs well in this regard. However, in my opinion the biggest and most reliable counter to rain is Ferrothorn. You considered of dropping Excadrill and well... I would hate to get into semantics but to me a sand team isn't a sand team without Excadrill. That being said, Excadrill is a super difficult Pokemon to use effectively so making your team into "not really a sand team, just 6 great Pokemon" isn't a bad idea either if Excadrill doesn't seem to work. Wide Guard is such a pain to get past for Exca, therefor your Feint Hitmontop idea is also a good one. I'd probably put Dragon Gem on Salamence. Even though Haban Berry allows to live a Draco from other Mences, Salamence rarely is at full HP because it's just a great switch-in due to Intimidate. Rather than rain, I think the biggest pain to your team is opposing Hitmontop and Salamence is one Pokemon to give it a maximum nuke. Also, I'd maybe suggest some other Pokemon that can switch on Hitmontop and nuke it from the face of the earth. Reuniclus could be one potential at that. Jellicent sure is a switch in but offensively it doesn't pressure that much. In conclusion, if there's anything I'd maybe replace Amoonguss with Ferrothorn and consider Reuniclus for the Jellicent, as much as I love the idea of it as a rain counter. But just a suggestion, I'd say your team is already a really well thought out team that I'd imagine would perform well in practice. Quick edit: You seemed to be worried about Bisharp and kinda rightfully so. However, I don't find Bisharp really that much of a threat if you play smart. Salamence + Excadrill in my opinion deals with anything Bisharp has to bring just fine, especially because we have the lower power 70 power Sucker Punch in PokeMMO. Earthquake also allows to get past Blastoise + Bisharp which is the most common partner I've seen for it. Bisharp in general is super uncommon though, so I wouldn't use that much time worrying about it. Maybe invest your Hitmontop to live a +1 Iron Head and that's also additional way of not getting beat by it. Edited July 28, 2019 by OrangeManiac because I can Draconid 1 Link to comment
Draconid Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: I think the team in general is very solid. Amoonguss took a huge hit in terms of viability after the implementation of Sleep Clause to Doubles metagame in PokeMMO, so it's nowhere near as good and useful as it is in other platforms,, e.g. VGC. The main usefulness to Amoonguss in that team is Rage Powder to redirect Fight-attacks but Exca/TTar are weak to so many spread moves (Muddy Water/Earthquake, etc.) I think your team did a pretty fine job trying to counter rain teams which you're right to say are a huge pain to Sand teams, Jellicent for example is a very creative Pokemon that definitely performs well in this regard. However, in my opinion the biggest and most reliable counter to rain is Ferrothorn. You considered of dropping Excadrill and well... I would hate to get into semantics but to me a sand team isn't a sand team without Excadrill. That being said, Excadrill is a super difficult Pokemon to use effectively so making your team into "not really a sand team, just 6 great Pokemon" isn't a bad idea either if Excadrill doesn't seem to work. Wide Guard is such a pain to get past for Exca, therefor your Feint Hitmontop idea is also a good one. I'd probably put Dragon Gem on Salamence. Even though Haban Berry allows to live a Draco from other Mences, Salamence rarely is at full HP because it's just a great switch-in due to Intimidate. Rather than rain, I think the biggest pain to your team is opposing Hitmontop and Salamence is one Pokemon to give it a maximum nuke. Also, I'd maybe suggest some other Pokemon that can switch on Hitmontop and nuke it from the face of the earth. Reuniclus could be one potential at that. Jellicent sure is a switch in but offensive it doesn't pressure that much. In conclusion, if there's anything I'd maybe replace Amoonguss with Ferrothorn and consider Reuniclus for the Jellicent, as much as I love the idea of it as a rain counter. But just a suggestion, I'd say your team is already a really well thought out team that I'd imagine would perform well in practice. Fantastic response, thank you very much. I hadn't actually considered hitmontop as a threat until you brought it up, thank you. I thought there was something I missed. So with your rate, a team of Tyranitar/Excadrill/Salamence/Hitmontop/Ferrothorn/Reuniclus would suffice? How would you go about optimising Reuniclus for the team in this meta? I would personally go with: Reuniclus @ Life Orb Ability: Magic Guard Quiet Nature EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD IVs: 0 Spe - Trick Room - Psychic - Focus Blast - Protect Anything you'd change? Thanks again, Draconid Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Draconid said: Fantastic response, thank you very much. I hadn't actually considered hitmontop as a threat until you brought it up, thank you. I thought there was something I missed. So with your rate, a team of Tyranitar/Excadrill/Salamence/Hitmontop/Ferrothorn/Reuniclus would suffice? How would you go about optimising Reuniclus for the team in this meta? I would personally go with: Reuniclus @ Life Orb Ability: Magic Guard Quiet Nature EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD IVs: 0 Spe - Trick Room - Psychic - Focus Blast - Protect Yeah, that is exactly the standard Reuniclus for Doubles. That team is the kind of team that I would use if I played Japan Sand (TTar-Exca-Salamence) core. That being said, I personally do not play Excadrill often due to being a bit clunky and I always enjoy using flexible, multi-dimensional Pokemon. But rather than taking out Excadrill for this team, my thought process would probably be starting a new team "from scratch" and try to pick up 2-3 Pokemon you wanna use and then completely rethink the best possible support for those Pokemon. The outcome could obviously by similar, if not the same, but it's important to consider every support move for the current version of the actual team. Edited July 28, 2019 by OrangeManiac Draconid 1 Link to comment
Draconid Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said: Yeah, that is exactly the standard Reuniclus for Doubles. That team is the kind of team that I would use if I played Japan Sand (TTar-Exca-Salamence) core. That being said, I personally do not play Excadrill often due to being a bit clunky and I always enjoy using flexible, multi-dimensional Pokemon. But rather than taking out Excadrill for this team, my thought process would probably be starting a new team "from scratch" and try to pick up 2-3 Pokemon you wanna use and then completely rethink the best possible support for those Pokemon. The outcome could obviously by similar, if not the same, but it's important to consider every support move for the current version of the actual team. Sounds like a plan, I'll keep re-working the team until I can't break it. What are some common cores in the current meta? Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Draconid said: Sounds like a plan, I'll keep re-working the team until I can't break it. What are some common cores in the current meta? Rain: Pelipper-Kingdra-Ludicolo Sun: LilliKoal Trick Room: Reuniclus + Conkeldurr/Hariyama Volca support: Blastoise, Hitmontop, Volcarona Individual Pokemon that fit just about every team: Hitmontop, Salamence, Ferrothorn, Togekiss, Blastoise, Hydreigon, Tyranitar, Gyarados Also, your Exca needs Iron Head over X-Scissor, I'd even argue Iron Head is even more spammable than EQ. Draconid 1 Link to comment
Draconid Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said: Rain: Pelipper-Kingdra-Ludicolo Sun: LilliKoal Trick Room: Reuniclus + Conkeldurr/Hariyama Volca support: Blastoise, Hitmontop, Volcarona Individual Pokemon that fit just about every team: Hitmontop, Salamence, Ferrothorn, Togekiss, Blastoise, Hydreigon, Tyranitar, Gyarados Also, your Exca needs Iron Head over X-Scissor, I'd even argue Iron Head is even more spammable than EQ. Thanks a lot for the help! I've had a go at experimenting with some of the cores you listed, and arrived back at the conclusion of Tyranitar/Salamence/Ferrothorn/Hitmontop/Reuniclus/Excadrill. Excadrill this time being added on as a filler, as the rest of the team does plenty to support it. Link to comment
Draconid Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 Quick question, where can I find more resources for this metagame? These forums seem a little lacking in resources like viability rankings, sample teams etc. If the community here need a hand with creating this type of thing, I'd be willing to help! I made this resource for VGC 2016 which gained some popularity on smogon/nugget bridge: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vgc-16-teambuilding-frameworks.3564141/ Link to comment
Lluvvia Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 X-Scissor is kinda bad, and so is Iron Head imho in a gen 5 environment. I would suggest to run Drill Run in that slot, just to spam Ground stab without hitting Wide Guards or partners. I believe Excadrill is an extremely strong and underrated mon in this doubles meta. Draconid 1 Link to comment
Draconid Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 37 minutes ago, Lluvvia said: X-Scissor is kinda bad, and so is Iron Head imho in a gen 5 environment. I would suggest to run Drill Run in that slot, just to spam Ground stab without hitting Wide Guards or partners. I believe Excadrill is an extremely strong and underrated mon in this doubles meta. I agree completely! I didn't know that iron head was available and completely forgot about drill run! Thanks for pointing them out! :) Link to comment
jfk Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I really like the team, in case you do wanna try ferrothorn out I would put it over exca or amoonguss. I really like to carry SR on my dubs teams so you may wanna give it a try Link to comment
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