Talk About “Donations”

[blankf4ce]

1 minute ago, kuplion said:

Uh..no. The best legal loophole here is donations and the legal responsibility for acquiring the required roms being on the end user.

I was speaking on the topic of accepting "donations", not the topic of roms. Since everyone on this thread is stating that they use that term to avoid legal trouble, and to avoid being open about any profit they seem to not be making according to Kittokatsu. Since, this would likely cause a lawsuit from Nintendo. I doubt they would continue to keep this game running if they were losing money.

[KittoKatsu]

9 minutes ago, blankf4ce said:

Oh, but I thought they were doing this out of the kindness of their hearts? At least that's what they make it seem like. Considering this is not their game, switching to a pay what you want model would be the best legal loophole they have. Profit is revenue-cost. If you think I'm wrong about radiohead, then do some research, thought you had experience, they made A LOT of PROFIT using this model. You are right about one thing, I do not know how much it would cost to keep a game like this running. Don't play yourself the devs are very open about the fact that this is a side hustle and not their actual jobs. Development funding for what? the game was already made, they just make a few minor adjustment, that's why we download roms. That leaves what? hosting? How much does hosting ACTUALLY cost, if you don't mind me asking someone with experience on the subject. I personally was going to donate a few hundred dollars when platinum went live, but this recent update has made me reconsider even playing this game again. I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable donating if this is the direction the game is headed. Sorry they can't legally make this pay to play, that's probably for a good reason.

To the ears of me, someone who actually understands the costs the developers are incurring both tangible and intangible, and to whom it is clear that you DO NOT...

 

...understand that you just sound like a horribly misinformed/willfully ignorant freeloader who just wants everything to be magically free and doesn't care that the service being granted to him actually costs more than PokeMMO could ever actually make in donations.

Edited July 29, 2019 by KittoKatsu

[blankf4ce]

32 minutes ago, KittoKatsu said:

To the ears of me, someone who actually understands the costs the developers are incurring both tangible and intangible, and to whom it is clear that you DO NOT...

 

...understand that you just sound like a horribly misinformed/willfully ignorant freeloader who just wants everything to be magically free and doesn't care that the service being granted to him actually costs more than PokeMMO could ever make actually make in donations.

I asked what it costs. I don't claim to know how much it costs, that's why I asked you. I would not donate towards something I do not support. I did enjoy this game, and am not ignorant to the fact that it does cost something to keep the game running. Tangible costs, nobody is forcing them to do this. However, I think the efforts the devteam is making towards turning a profit, which I am not necessarily convinced that they are not already doing, are going to do nothing but push people away from playing the game. Keep in mind, most people do not have the technical knowledge you do, and are only interested in playing the game they love (pokemon) in an mmo format, that is kept as close to the original games as possible. Trying to force money out of our pockets is only going to push us away.

edit: just found a provider offering servers of a similar type (teardown and rebuild of cs:go) for $119-$980 a month: https://www.servermania.com/kb/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-run-a-game-server/, and and you expect me to believe they aren't turning a profit? Or couldn't with a pay what you want model? And that's assuming they use a similar service and don't just own their own processors.

Edited July 29, 2019 by blankf4ce

[blankf4ce]

If they're losing money right now then I'm sorry and would redact my previous statements. However, I don't believe that in the slightest. 

[KittoKatsu]

25 minutes ago, blankf4ce said:

I asked what it costs. I don't claim to know how much it costs, that's why I asked you. I would not donate towards something I do not support. I did enjoy this game, and am not ignorant to the fact that it does cost something to keep the game running. Tangible costs, nobody is forcing them to do this. However, I think the efforts the devteam is making towards turning a profit, which I am not necessarily convinced that they are not already doing, are going to do nothing but push people away from playing the game. Keep in mind, most people do not have the technical knowledge you do, and are only interested in playing the game they love (pokemon) in an mmo format, that is kept as close to the original games as possible. Trying to force money out of our pockets is only going to push us away.

Okay, fair enough I will believe that you genuinely just don't understand and want to. I am sorry for my tone. - Listen, baseline here: developers with the skill set needed to work on projects like this make at minimum $50,000 a year working on just about any other full time project. That's -one- developer. A lot of developers make in excess of $70,000 a year. So already, if you take what I said about time being money (gained or lost) for developers, you can begin to understand where this is going. Now I'm telling you as a matter of fact, there is no way the hosting of this service is also any less than $1,000 a month. I'm being generous here. Given the team here must have at least 2 - 3 developers, and a reliable and reasonably fast hosting service, we're already in over $150,000 a year (I'm counting time as money here again, these skills ain't free and aren't easy to achieve so rightfully a developer is worth this much). Now how many players do we have here? I don't know but I'm guessing ballpark 5,000 to 8,000 on a good week (wild guess) and the vast majority, I guarantee you do not and will not donate. 10% maximum might. If we say the average donator, at %10, spends $20 a month (being very generous here) that comes to about... what.... $10,000 (500 x 20)? $20,000 at best? Of which $1,000 - $2,000 automatically goes to hosting cost. $18,000 - $150,000... is -$132,000....

Edited July 29, 2019 by KittoKatsu

[blankf4ce]

1 hour ago, KittoKatsu said:

Okay, fair enough I will believe that you genuinely just don't understand and want to. I am sorry for my tone. - Listen, baseline here: developers with the skill set needed to work on projects like this make at minimum $50,000 a year working on just about any other full time project. That's -one- developer. A lot of developers make in excess of $70,000 a year. So already, if you take what I said about time being money (gained or lost) for developers, you can begin to understand whee this is going. Now I'm telling you as a matter of fact, there is no way the hosting of this service is also any less than $1,000 a month. I'm being generous here. Given the team here must have at least 2 - 3 developers, and a reliable and reasonably fast hosting service, we're already in over $150,000 a year (I'm counting time as money here again, these skills ain't free and aren't easy to achieve so rightfully a developer is worth this much). Now how many players do we have here? I don't but I'm guessing ballpark 5,000 to 8,000 on a good week (wild guess) and the vast majority, I guarantee you do not and will not donate. 10% maximum might. If we say the average donator, at %10, spends $20 a month (being very generous here) that comes to about... what.... $10,000 (500 x 20)? $20,000 at best? Of which $1,000 - $2,000 automatically goes to hosting cost. $18,000 - $150,000... is -$132,000....

I don't know if I would fully consider the time is money argument.  They do put work into the game that is highly valuable in the current job market. However, they are still probably working their full-time jobs, and are doing this on the side in their free time. They also do not put enough work into this game to consider it a full-time project. It does take them a few years for each new region. It seems to me that they put the work into creating the game to create passive income on top of a full-time job's salary. They are still choosing to do this, and I doubt they would if they weren't already making enough at their jobs, or turning some kind of profit. I'll still give you 10k per developer here making it 30k a year, as they could be doing something else in their free time with their coding knowledge to make money. At least, for while the game is in development. It sounds like once platinum is out they will be more or less done working on the game. Plus 1.5k a month would be another 18k, so 48k a year, including intangibles. I would also say that the majority of people that actually donate, don't just get donator's status. They buy extra and exchange them for in-game currency. This could cover the tangible costs, while donations could cover the intangibles. This would still put them at a loss, so thank you for teaching me on this subject I genuinely knew nothing about, I was not trolling you or baiting you in any way. I will agree now that a pay what you want model would not work for this game, but not necessarily due to the costs. 

I'm sorry to say that the vast majority of players would not even consider this. As far as the business aspect of things is concerned, most consumers don't care enough to research this stuff. Until now, the amount I was willing to donate was based on how much I felt I was enjoying the game, which was quite a bit. Let's be real here the value of the compensation given for donating is not even close to being considered a purchase (+10% shiny rate, +10% egg hatching on rates that are nerfed af for 1 week costs $5?). They don't need to nerf F2P, they need to buff P2P if anything. Myself and many others do not like being deceived into spending money, it definitely doesn't make me want to open up my wallet. Right now it feels like I'm being swindled into paying, not donating. Effectively making me want to walk away from the game for good. Converting every aspect of the game to consumables makes me increasingly less willing to spend money on the game, especially when the costs of said consumables outweigh the benefits, as I feel like I'm wasting my time playing it already I'd rather not waste my money too. Most people who play MMOs want to build up their accounts and enjoy the game, not use all their items in limited time periods. Nerfing the F2P players in an attempt to get them to spend money just isn't helping, and if they walk away from the game they will never be spending any money on it. From the sounds of it, the majority of the cost is intangible, in which case actual donations (pay what you want) would be the best way to go about it. People won't do that if they don't enjoy what they're getting from the devs. If improvements were made to the game people could and likely would feel good about supporting the devs and the game. While I would agree with you, the devs definitely deserve compensation for making this game possible, I still feel that they are going about it in the wrong way. Making the game so nerfed (1/30k shiny rate, no long term amulet coin, no long term lucky egg, etc.) that the average f2p player can't enjoy it long enough to consider donating doesn't seem like a good idea to me. People like this game so much because it is so similar to the original games. But, at this rate, the game will no longer be enjoyable unless you donate, making it pay to play, which I can't logically or morally agree with. The changes they are making all seem negative to the average consumer. I feel like the game I've enjoyed for so long is being ruined by the economic aspects of things, meanwhile the devs are making it seem like a hobby. Switching to a pay what you want model would only not work because so many people aren't happy about donating, give the customer what they want and they will be happy to pay. 

F2P can be replaced with casual, as casual players still spend money^

Edited July 29, 2019 by blankf4ce

[Dibz]

Ok so google "macroeconomic concepts" and "causes and effects of inflation and deflation". I've seen you make the point before that these are basically in-game purchases of Pokeyen with extra steps. 

Point 1: No one has to or is required to buy these items, and they have a choice to spend Pokeyen for it if they'd rather do that. They don't even give people significant advantages, just make them look prettier, get rid of HM slaves and give you the tiniest buff in shiny hunting. 

Point 2: Idk if you've googled what I told you to google yet, but go google it before you read on. RP items are mostly stuff that can't be consumed, and those that can be consumed provide no amazing benefit to the game's grind vs people who don't use those items. When you bring an item like that into the game and sell it, money that already exists within the game is given to you, that money is circulated, not generated. Therefore it doesn't really contribute to inflation, though I won't comment on whether it's fair that some people can pay to not grind pokeyen. 

And most importantly, point 3: What? Like, legit, what is the point of this post? What are you trying to argue? That we shouldn't call these things donations because the devs decided to create the concept or Reward Points to (idk just making a wild guess as to what their purpose is) REWARD players who choose to donate to the game? At a point in time, RP didn't exist. People just donated to the game because they loved it and believed in it. Reward Points exist now as a little "thank you for donating!" as well as to incentivise donating. Which is completely fine cause do you have ANY idea how much it costs to host an online game whose population grows exponentially and keep it running??? 

 

I don't mean this offensively at all, just stating it as a fact: you spam forums a lot and put hella thought into things you don't even think properly about. Maybe LEARN about the topics you write 5000 words per post about before you write anything or even think at all? Seriously, I have yet to see a single valid point or argument from you. Right now you just seem like a spoiled child who pretends he's an expert on everything just because he thinks he is.

 

PSA: no one has to donate anything to this game. Everyone who does, chooses to. Same goes for playing it.

 

tl;dr: wtf dude

Edited July 29, 2019 by Dibz

[KittoKatsu]

14 minutes ago, blankf4ce said:

I don't know if I would fully consider the time is money argument.  They do put work into the game that is highly valuable in the current job market. However, they are still probably working their full-time jobs, and are doing this on the side in their free time. They also do not put enough work into this game to consider it a full-time project. It does take them a few years for each new region. It seems to me that they put the work into creating the game to create passive income on top of a full-time job's salary. They are still choosing to do this, and I doubt they would if they weren't already making enough at their jobs, or turning some kind of profit. I'll still give you 10k per developer here making it 30k a year, as they could be doing something else in their free time with their coding knowledge to make money. At least, for while the game is in development. It sounds like once platinum is out they will be more or less done working on the game. Plus 1.5k a month would be another 18k, so 48k a year, including intangibles. I would also say that the majority of people that actually donate, don't just get donator's status. They buy extra and exchange them for in-game currency. This could cover the tangible costs, while donations could cover the intangibles. This would still put them at a loss, so thank you for teaching me on this subject I genuinely knew nothing about, I was not trolling you or baiting you in any way. I will agree now that a pay what you want model would not work for this game, but not necessarily due to the costs. 

I'm sorry to say that the vast majority of players would not even consider this. As far as the business aspect of things is concerned, most consumers don't care enough to research this stuff. Until now, the amount I was willing to donate was based on how much I felt I was enjoying the game, which was quite a bit. Let's be real here the value of the compensation given for donating is not even close to being considered a purchase (+10% shiny rate, +10% egg hatching on rates that are nerfed af for 1 week costs $5?). They don't need to nerf F2P, they need to buff P2P if anything. Myself and many others do not like being deceived into spending money, it definitely doesn't make me want to open up my wallet. Right now it feels like I'm being swindled into paying, not donating. Effectively making me want to walk away from the game for good. Converting every aspect of the game to consumables makes me increasingly less willing to spend money on the game, especially when the costs of said consumables outweigh the benefits, as I feel like I'm wasting my time playing it already I'd rather not waste my money too. Most people who play MMOs want to build up their accounts and enjoy the game, not use all their items in limited time periods. Nerfing the F2P players in an attempt to get them to spend money just isn't helping, and if they walk away from the game they will never be spending any money on it. From the sounds of it, the majority of the cost is intangible, in which case actual donations (pay what you want) would be the best way to go about it. People won't do that if they don't enjoy what they're getting from the devs. If improvements were made to the game people could and likely would feel good about supporting the devs and the game. While I would agree with you, the devs definitely deserve compensation for making this game possible, I still feel that they are going about it in the wrong way. Making the game so nerfed (1/30k shiny rate, no long term amulet coin, no long term lucky egg, etc.) that the average f2p player can't enjoy it long enough to consider donating doesn't seem like a good idea to me. People like this game so much because it is so similar to the original games. But, at this rate, the game will no longer be enjoyable unless you donate, making it pay to play, which I can't logically or morally agree with. The changes they are making all seem negative to the average consumer. I feel like the game I've enjoyed for so long is being ruined by the economic aspects of things, meanwhile the devs are making it seem like a hobby. Switching to a pay what you want model would only not work because so many people aren't happy about donating, give the customer what they want and they will be happy to pay. 

"I don't know if I would fully consider the time is money argument.  They do put work into the game that is highly valuable in the current job market. However, they are still probably working their full-time jobs, and are doing this on the side in their free time. They also do not put enough work into this game to consider it a full-time project."

 

Yes, but you see, even if they are only working part time... the amount this game makes does not exceed what is being sacrificed. It is precisely because they work full time REAL jobs that the spare time they spend on this is so important... it's time they could be relaxing from their actual work or spending time with family or expanding their project/professional portfolio or skills (you aren't going to put "developed for a blatantly copyright infringing fan game" on a resume, so this project does NOT count). They are simply not making what their time is worth.

 

In so far as P2P being buffed, you have to also consider that they are trying to make the game feel fair and not pay to win, which is a noble goal imo...

Edited July 29, 2019 by KittoKatsu

[Desu]

I think this has gone on long enough. We don't have any plans to change any terms, the terms are fine as is.