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Munya

August-Movement Discussion Thread

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3 minutes ago, Cacha said:

Ahahahaha, no no, I did not say that, I said that there is a large amount of the current population that if it is in that range, and thinks, of course, why it is free, and it is fine, but let's accept it. That was not the message anyway, I continue reading seeing how the matter is going, I do not want to divert the subject, it was only an opinion based on everything I have been reading. Because believe it, yes, I read them all.

Well, to address your point that the lower you go down in tiers, the less teams you see - do you think this could have something to do with mons that are centralizing, and restricting the tier? You're saying it's because players aren't creative or good enough - maybe that even has something to do with it. But you can't just rule out the possibility that certain mons are restricting the tier and restricting creativity, too. That's what we're here to discuss

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2 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Discussion threads such as this are made for discussing potentially OP threats in a certain metagame. It always has been like that, through many years, in literally every competitive community- this includes ours. Argument "git gud" is usually used by people who got absolutely no clue about either competitive play or discussion threads (or even both), especially if it comes out from someone who cannot really show off any personal accolades. Maybe Frags, Nik or LifeStyle could say the "git gud" phrase and it would have a way different tone.

 

We discuss threats based on multiple different stands- unhealthy, overcentralizing, uber support/ offensive/ defensive. It's incredibly alarming if usage of 2 pokemons in the metagame goes over 50% and for LC, we got one threat which sits on astonishing 74% usage which is probably the highest usage mon in PokeMMO history and second on 61%. These mons are too good not to use; therefore they make the metagame become stagnant, and that's something we want to avoid.

 

As much as my previous posts were only pointing out the obvious (especially the scarf Bouffalant), that much I would like to see every metagame becoming healthy and enjoyable for everyone- although LC is not really my tier and I cannot discuss anything more as much as I'd like to.

Yes, I understand perfectly what you are trying to say, but look at it from this side, you cannot ban everything that brings "problems", currently you cannot go to pvp without something that counteracts chansey, conkeldurr, weather equipment and hydreigon scarf and volcarona. There practically everything is allowed and nothing is banned, however it is the most played tier. I was referring to that, but I think it is the least important, I will open another thread about opinions to encourage comp in other tiers, those numbers are alarming.

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11 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

The focus should probably be on whether diglett, and really arena trap as a whole, is uncompetitive. And the answer is, yes, it clearly is.

Then why allow Dugtrio in UU and decide to ban Diglet in LC? Your statement contradicts itself, or it needs further development with actual facts.

13 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

It takes an enormous amount of autonomy away from individual players - the ability to switch out is a very important tool in competitive player's arsenal.

Again this exact same line could be used as an argument against Dugtrio, yet somehow Dugtrio is fine and Diglet isn't.

 

21 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

The follow up question, though, which tends to set things like arena trap and shadow tag apart from, say, magnet pull or mean look, is this: is it SO uncompetitive that it's banworthy? Does this lack of autonomy actually hurt the healthiness of the tier?

 

22 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I think anyone who has been around long enough should knwo by now that the remedy for a potential unhealthy mon, is a suspect test. There are certainly some issues with LC right now, usage CAN tell us that. Maybe it's worth it to observe the tier for a month without diglett? See if that lessens the impact of some of the problematic offensive threats as GB suggests it might.

So basically what I understand ( since your whole argument is just general theory without any LC factual examples ) is that you have no idea about LC but you heard from GB that Diglet is actually uncompetitive, and you're down for a 1 month test ban.

I apologize in advance in case I'm wrong, but I had to since you decided to vote for a diglet ban with the only argument that Arena trap is uncompetitive, which doesn't explain the contradiction of Dugtrio roaming free.

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24 minutes ago, camilo7 said:

@gbwead always want ban pokemons that his boyfriends cant stop, gb plzz stop ban pokemons . u dont play any tier why u are tier council?

jajajajajajajajaja

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I don't think anything is going to happen this month tiering wise, but feel free to keep discussing if any actual discussing is going on, deadline for this thread is getting close to coming to an end and there is no consensus being reached rn that I've seen.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Laz said:

Then why allow Dugtrio in UU and decide to ban Diglet in LC? Your statement contradicts itself, or it needs further development with actual facts.

Again this exact same line could be used as an argument against Dugtrio, yet somehow Dugtrio is fine and Diglet isn't.

 

 

So basically what I understand ( since your whole argument is just general theory without any LC factual examples ) is that you have no idea about LC but you heard from GB that Diglet is actually uncompetitive, and you're down for a 1 month test ban.

I apologize in advance in case I'm wrong, but I had to since you decided to vote for a diglet ban with the only argument that Arena trap is uncompetitive, which doesn't explain the contradiction of Dugtrio roaming free.

It is not contradictory to say that diglett is uncompetitive while dugtrio remains unbanned. As you can see later on, uncompetitive =/= banworthy. Yes, dugtrio is obviously uncompetitive, just like critical hits and magnet pull to an extent. But is it banworthy? I dunno, clearly TC doesn't think so, and when have they ever been wrong?

 

But my focus is on diglett, and my point has nothing to do with which SIDE i'm on (hence why I didn't provide examples one way or the other). I've seen a lot of people who have stated that LC is an unhealthy metagame now, and a lot of examples have been thrown around as to why. My point was, the tiering solution for a potential unhealthy pokemon is a suspect test. We can all theorymon all day about which pokemon is making LC unhealthy or centralized, and whether the top usage mons are strong because of themselves or because of the support they receive from, say, diglett. But it's all just speculation. We won't have any actual answers unless we do a suspect test, removing one of the problematic elements and observing the results.

 

So, is LC unhealthy enough to warrant a suspect test? Idk, I don't play LC lol. But any attempts to dodge the suspect test issue are veering off tiering precedent

 

 

e: by the way, here's an obnoxiously long but good post on the issue of uncompetitiveness in mons https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/competitive-and-uncompetitive-definition-discussion.3522799/

Edited by Gunthug

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In case it wasn't clear, there is no plan to ban Misdreavus, Mienfoo and Clamperl. Do not worry, it was just a joke.

When it comes to Diglett, I'm in favor of a test ban, but that's just me.

Regarding Murkrow, I don't recall what were the main checks. Archen was a big one iirc. Now that the berry juice bug is fixed, perhaps Heat Proof Bronzor would be able to check Murkrow. What else can stop Murkrow?

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16 minutes ago, gbwead said:

In case it wasn't clear, there is no plan to ban Misdreavus, Mienfoo and Clamperl. Do not worry, it was just a joke.

When it comes to Diglett, I'm in favor of a test ban, but that's just me.

Regarding Murkrow, I don't recall what were the main checks. Archen was a big one iirc. Now that the berry juice bug is fixed, perhaps Heat Proof Bronzor would be able to check Murkrow. What else can stop Murkrow?

Magnemite checks it too I'd say.

On the diglett topic, 1 month suspect testing on a format which isn't played much generally doesn't lead to any significant results. The meta is a lot slower at adapting due to the lack of battle experiences.

Better would be to target the obvious threats and assess their banworthiness.

MissdyD is probably too good to not use, same goes for mienfoo. They also work hand in hand with and against eachother due to their strength and weaknesses.

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I think LC its simple just ban baton pass and deep sea tooth and the tier is balanced.

But diglet is the problem.... :)

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Posted (edited)

Strongly agree to ban Clamperl or item deep sea tooth in LC. By setting the Stealth Rock/Spikes on enemy's field,  Clamperl with deep sea tooth and after shell smash can easily destory others team:

Ex for Eviolite Porygon: After Stealth Rock 

 +2 252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 25-30 (96.1 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Full hp Porygon has even gone with this ridiculous damage.

 

And, normally a Clamperl would with HP fire/grass, Ice beam, and Protect. The move set with grass+ water+ Ice has full attack side in MMO ( I think). Lets see below:

for Eviolite Ferroseed: After Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes. (In LC, Ferroseed likely have 16 SPD and 24 HP)

+2 252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

 

Yes, if Clamperl with HP fire, Chinchou/Wooper/Frillish...etc have chance to counter down the Clamperl, but in the above case, Clamperl is able to bring with HP grass, and take down all its enemys.

 

Only few ways to counter this

- Misdreavus/ghost with Choice Scarf

Normally in this way, we need to giving out one poke which already on the field, and the move will be locked after beat down the Clamperl. If we counter with move Destiny Bond, which means we need to give out two poke for the Clamperl. Not fair.

 

-Clean/prevent Stealth Rock/ Spikes on your field

So that the poke with ability Sturdy is able to counter the Clamperl. In this case, Clamperl can safty use shell smash while you clean the rock, and one poke stay on the field would be take down so that the Sturdy poke can come onto the field.

 

-If Clamperl bring with move set grass+ water+ Ice, Mienfoo may have chance to take it down by Fake Out, but many team mates would be given away in this case.

-If Clamperl bring with move set fire+ water+ protect, water tank ofc can come up the field, but your enemy is not fool, they can always switch back Clamperl to other pokes to short ur water tank's HP.

 

I mean, not thing is wrong, but the combo Clamperl + item deep sea tooth + shell smash is too OP in MMO LC environment.

 

Added info:

As required by Pachima(whos at the next floor of mine)

 

Tentacool

Before shell smash

252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 6-7 (26 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

After shell smash

+2 252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 11-13 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

 

 

Still, 2HKO after shell smash. Someone may argue that at the turn shell smash, Tentacool can come up and conter Clamperl by Giga drain, ture. But, think of these senior player, when they saw Tentacool in enemy's team, would they use shell smash at that turn? No, they would do surf and short the Hp of Tentacool, we know the Tentacool in LC only recover HP with giga drain, lack of reliable recover move. Few runs later, tentacool would no longer counter Clamperl. (And, but the calculation, if  Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes exist in enemy's field, after the first surf, next time when Clamperl come up, shell smash would smash everything.)

 

 

Munchlax

without Eviolite:

+2 252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 33-40 (100 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

with Eviolite:

+2 252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 24-28 (72.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

with Eviolite and Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252 SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 24-28 (72.7 - 84.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

 

High chance take down Eviolite Munchlax by Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes in this case. However, so far I observe,  normally the munchlax brings with barries or Berry Juice in LC, combo with Recycle. And as mention as in Tentacool, players can always short Munchlax's HP due to lack of reliable recover move.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mxdzzz
Pachima ask for more info

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Posted (edited)

Add tentacool and eviolite munchlax to the list of mons that survive anything +2 camperl throws at them (No, hp ele clamperl sucks)

There is also some good priority mons in the tier and absence of eviolite (for deepseatooth) makes clamperl pretty squishy after a shell smash and therefore even easier to be revenged with those priority moves.

Now, speaking of the usage. I believe the problem is not usage itself being high, but rather playerpool of LC tier being too small.

Does this matter?

Yes, unlike OU where 200 different people play, with different playstyles and therefore different teams, in LC the playerbase is much much smaller. With a much smaller playerbase, one will therefore expect the same few playstyles and as a consequence, the exact same teamsamples or cores used by those few players. 

If you still cant see where I am getting into, or I am explaining it poorly, let´s exacerbate this to the maximum:

- Imagine a tier played by 2 people. Usage of each mon would be close to 100% cause there arent more mons being played cuz there arent more ppl playing.

-Imagine a tier played by infinite people. Usage is now much much more scattered cuz different people will use different stuff.

LC right now is statistically too close to the first scenario. One cannot simply deem a mon unhealthy by usage under these circunstances.

Edited by pachima

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15 minutes ago, pachima said:

If you still cant see where I am getting into, or I am explaining it poorly, let´s exacerbate this to the maximum:

- Imagine a tier played by 2 people. Usage of each mon would be close to 100% cause there arent more mons being played cuz there arent more ppl playing.

-Imagine a tier played by infinite people. Usage is now much much more scattered cuz different people will use different stuff.

LC right now is statistically too close to the first scenario. One cannot simply deem a mon unhealthy by usage under these circunstances.

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but at the same time, even though the lc comp scene is indeed very small, it is still growing. With more players added to our comp scene, we should expect more strategies being developed, new cores appearing and more creativity overall, but usage is showing us each month that the tier is getting more and more centralized around the same threats. It's concerning because all we see is pretty much more of the same things over and over. For instance, today in the LC tournament, the second place finisher used the same exact team each round; diglett scarf supporting clamperl, mienfoo and misdreavus basically. His opponent in the finale used the Diglett + Clamperl combo as well and pretty much won simply because he was able to abuse Diglett first. I really believe that banning Diglett would give a more dynamic and healthy LC metagame and I wish there was more support for the test ban.
 

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On 8/13/2019 at 1:33 AM, gbwead said:

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but at the same time, even though the lc comp scene is indeed very small, it is still growing. With more players added to our comp scene, we should expect more strategies being developed, new cores appearing and more creativity overall, but usage is showing us each month that the tier is getting more and more centralized around the same threats. It's concerning because all we see is pretty much more of the same things over and over. For instance, today in the LC tournament, the second place finisher used the same exact team each round; diglett scarf supporting clamperl, mienfoo and misdreavus basically. His opponent in the finale used the Diglett + Clamperl combo as well and pretty much won simply because he was able to abuse Diglett first. I really believe that banning Diglett would give a more dynamic and healthy LC metagame and I wish there was more support for the test ban.
 

well I might be wrong, and I would need tools to compare usage from the different past months, but I believe (at least in my experience) misdreavus has been declining in usage after people found munchlax. Still, again, people´s adaptation in this game is so damn slow that we could find out its effects somewhere near 2051.

Either way, clamperl is fine. (tbh I have no idea why some ppl pushing towards a clamperl ban instead of misd or mienfo but ok).  For misd Id probs want to take a look at the end of this month usage and see its evolution. For diglett, I was always against trapping abilities in some specific mons and Im not really sure if diglett is that different from dugtrio for both to have different judgments.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, pachima said:

well I might be wrong, and I would need tools to compare usage from the different past months, but I believe (at least in my experience) misdreavus has been declining in usage after people found munchlax. Still, again, people´s adaptation in this game is so damn slow that we could find out its effects somewhere near 2051.

Since December 2018, right after the Scraggy and Murkrow bans, Misdreavus has gained 26.71% in usage and Munchlax has gained only 0.12% in usage.

Edited by gbwead

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5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Since December 2018, right after the Scraggy and Murkrow bans, Misdreavus has gained 26.71% in usage and Munchlax has gained only 0.12% in usage.

well yeh makes sense misd would get more usage after those 2 bans. I mean like the latter 2/3 months. What has been misd evolution?

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4 minutes ago, pachima said:

well yeh makes sense misd would get more usage after those 2 bans. I mean like the latter 2/3 months. What has been misd evolution?

For Misdreavus, its usage dropped 6.18% from May to June, went up 1.96% from June to July and went up again 10.94% from July to August. In the past 3 months, Misdreavus gained 6.72% in usage.

 

For Munchlax, its usage dropped 2.03% from May to June, dropped again 3.85% from June to July and went up 0.81% from July to August. In the past 3 months, Munchlax lost 5.07% in usage.

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

For Misdreavus, its usage dropped 6.18% from May to June, went up 1.96% from June to July and went up again 10.94% from July to August. In the past 3 months, Misdreavus gained 6.72% in usage.

 

For Munchlax, its usage dropped 2.03% from May to June, dropped again 3.85% from June to July and went up 0.81% from July to August. In the past 3 months, Munchlax lost 5.07% in usage.

thanks. How could I forget the good old mmo? If misd rises, munchlax gotta drop.

Well, if it doesnt drop significantly this month, then probs ban it.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, pachima said:

thanks. How could I forget the good old mmo? If misd rises, munchlax gotta drop.

Well, if it doesnt drop significantly this month, then probs ban it.

Well, there is still a very high correlation between the usage fluctuations of Misdreavus and the usage fluctuations of Munchlax. The last two months have been weird, but from December to June, each time Misdreavus' usage went up, Munchlax's usage followed and the same goes with when their usage dropped.

Edited by gbwead

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Well, there is still a very high correlation between the usage fluctuations of Misdreavus and the usage fluctuations of Munchlax. The last two months have been weird, but from December to June, each time Misdreavus' usage went up Munchlax's usage follows and the same goes with went their usage dropped.

hm... Did anything change at all for those 2 months (Like, if there was way less LC matches to be counted for, affecting the statistics of those numbers?)

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, pachima said:

hm... Did anything change at all for those 2 months (Like, if there was way less LC matches to be counted for, affecting the statistics of those numbers?)

The amount of LC usage collected has been pretty steady since February. There hasn't been any bans. I don't know when the berry juice + recycle bug was fixed, but it has been a while now.

Edit:
Overall evolution of LC usage from December to August

  • Vullaby: +28.62%
  • Misdreavus: +26.71%
  • Ferroseed: +24.99%
  • Clamperl: +19.39%
  • Mienfoo: +16.04%
  • Grimer: +9.25%
  • Chinchou: +7.83%
  • Porygon: +4.27%
  • Ponyta: +3.74%
  • Frillish: +2.03%
  • Diglett: +0.37%
  • Meowth: +0.32%
  • Munchlax: +0.12%
  • Larvesta: -0.18%
  • Onix: -1.76%
  • Elekid: -2.36%
  • Shellder: -2.88%
  • Tentacool: -3.58%
  • Bronzor: -4.64%
  • Magnemite: -6.80%
  • Dwebble: -7.54%
  • Staryu: -9.71%
  • Timburr: -10.33%
  • Pawniard: -11.22%
  • Gastly: -21.99%

 

Edited by gbwead

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Posted (edited)
On 8/14/2019 at 12:49 PM, pachima said:

well I might be wrong, and I would need tools to compare usage from the different past months, but I believe (at least in my experience) misdreavus has been declining in usage after people found munchlax. Still, again, people´s adaptation in this game is so damn slow that we could find out its effects somewhere near 2051.

Either way, is fine. (tbh I have no idea why some ppl pushing towards a clamperl ban instead of misd or mienfo but ok).  For misd Id probs want to take a look at the end of this month usage and see its evolution. For diglett, I was always against trapping abilities in some specific mons and Im not really sure if diglett is that different from dugtrio for both to have different judgments.

Clamperl is fine, true. But the combo Clamperl+ deep sea tooth is too op in LC. Priority mons may help, but before that, some mons will be gviven away allow them comes on to the field. As I discuss, reliable counter for  Clamperl+ deep sea tooth is not exist. The reason I do not discuss about mienfoo and Misd is just that I would have koffing, yamask, grimer, bronzor as the counter of mienfoo, and have porygon, half of the ferroseed, half of the vullaby to counter Misd( although I know its hard to counter Misd, but Portgon and vullaby would bave reliable move to recover hp.) 

 

Again, Clamperl is fine, deep sea tooth+ shell smash is too OP in LC. I am more prefer to suggest ban deep sea tooth rather than Clamperl herself. Noting that, the deep sea tooth =+2Spa, but with shell smash, the damage for deep sea tooth+ shell smash = +6 Spa. 

Edited by mxdzzz

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42 minutes ago, mxdzzz said:

As I discuss, reliable counter for  Clamperl+ deep sea tooth is not exist.

You are relying on a lot of factors for clamperl to be able to beat mantyke and tentacool, and disregarding the fact it can only choose 1x hidden power to beat some other stuff.

Based on your logic, there is no reliable counter for anything at all. (Tenta is much more of a clamperl counter than grimer or koffing are mienfoo counters. And dont even get me started on porygon or vullaby to counter misd cuz they dont at all)

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49 minutes ago, pachima said:

You are relying on a lot of factors for clamperl to be able to beat mantyke and tentacool, and disregarding the fact it can only choose 1x hidden power to beat some other stuff.

Based on your logic, there is no reliable counter for anything at all. (Tenta is much more of a clamperl counter than grimer or koffing are mienfoo counters. And dont even get me started on porygon or vullaby to counter misd cuz they dont at all)

I still think porygon is a good counter for misd, why not? (really dont get it).  Reliable counter existed when the counter comes on to the field, and its enemy does not have normal means to deal with them, and switch to the others, at the point the counter have chance to recover, and have possibility to counter its enemy again. Or, the counter,  at least, would not get too much damage from its enemy, like Tentacruel with a normall setting Kingdra. But Tenta lacks of reliable recover move, I would consider it's the counter but a weak counter for Clamperl. 

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