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Munya

August-Movement Discussion Thread

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OU:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  296376 49396
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Scizor 14572 29.50%
Ferrothorn 11987 24.27%
Conkeldurr 10815 21.89%
Hydreigon 10682 21.63%
Gengar 10319 20.89%
Salamence 8873 17.96%
Volcarona 8803 17.82%
Milotic 8088 16.37%
Jolteon 8022 16.24%
Tyranitar 7609 15.40%
Gyarados 7317 14.81%
Togekiss 7215 14.61%
Tentacruel 7127 14.43%
Pelipper 6786 13.74%
Magnezone 6682 13.53%
Blissey 6622 13.41%
Swampert 6616 13.39%
Gliscor 6562 13.28%
Cofagrigus 6502 13.16%
Skarmory 6189 12.53%
Excadrill 6147 12.44%
Kingdra 6096 12.34%
Mienshao 5618 11.37%
Dragonite 5533 11.20%
Darmanitan 5329 10.79%
Chandelure 4838 9.79%
Chansey 4635 9.38%
Reuniclus 4510 9.13%
Breloom 3870 7.83%
Cloyster 3735 7.56%
Kabutops 3461 7.01%
Hippowdon 3095 6.27%
Metagross 3082 6.24%
Starmie 2980 6.03%
Lucario 2453 4.97%
Arcanine 2445 4.95%
Umbreon 1833 3.71%
Mamoswine 1801 3.65%
Porygon2 1797 3.64%
Mandibuzz 1774 3.59%
Haxorus 1622 3.28%
Zoroark 1446 2.93%
Aerodactyl 1444 2.92%
Snorlax 1370 2.77%
Torkoal 1316 2.66%
Weavile 1183 2.39%
Lanturn 1161 2.35%
Jellicent 1116 2.26%
Electrode 1108 2.24%
Crobat 1084 2.19%
Scrafty 1084 2.19%
Mantine 1036 2.10%
Alakazam 947 1.92%
Charizard 897 1.82%
Donphan 890 1.80%
Azumarill 890 1.80%
Venusaur 884 1.79%
Forretress 873 1.77%
Whimsicott 853 1.73%
Krookodile 834 1.69%
Ludicolo 817 1.65%
Flygon 811 1.64%
Dugtrio 800 1.62%
Electivire 790 1.60%
Dusclops 696 1.41%
Gardevoir 676 1.37%
Yanmega 660 1.34%
Heracross 629 1.27%
Eelektross 599 1.21%
Slowbro 597 1.21%
Bisharp 594 1.20%
Weezing 589 1.19%
Medicham 583 1.18%
Bronzong 562 1.14%
Ambipom 557 1.13%
Porygon-Z 540 1.09%
Vaporeon 538 1.09%
Swellow 509 1.03%
Gallade 506 1.02%
Wobbuffet 494 1.00%

UU:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  5436 906
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Crobat 339 37.42%
Mamoswine 264 29.14%
Bronzong 197 21.74%
Heracross 186 20.53%
Lanturn 166 18.32%
Medicham 153 16.89%
Jellicent 148 16.34%
Porygon2 139 15.34%
Snorlax 139 15.34%
Mandibuzz 135 14.90%
Scrafty 126 13.91%
Typhlosion 126 13.91%
Yanmega 123 13.58%
Forretress 119 13.13%
Eelektross 105 11.59%
Venomoth 105 11.59%
Weavile 97 10.71%
Vaporeon 96 10.60%
Krookodile 92 10.15%
Dusclops 92 10.15%
Azumarill 90 9.93%
Magneton 88 9.71%
Zoroark 85 9.38%
Gligar 80 8.83%
Donphan 76 8.39%
Rhyperior 74 8.17%
Flygon 72 7.95%
Venusaur 68 7.51%
Bisharp 66 7.28%
Alakazam 65 7.17%
Absol 63 6.95%
Mantine 61 6.73%
Electrode 59 6.51%
Sigilyph 58 6.40%
Slowbro 51 5.63%
Umbreon 49 5.41%
Manectric 48 5.30%
Roserade 46 5.08%
Machamp 46 5.08%
Torkoal 43 4.75%
Gigalith 42 4.64%
Dugtrio 39 4.30%
Galvantula 39 4.30%
Whimsicott 37 4.08%
Linoone 37 4.08%
Aerodactyl 36 3.97%
Gallade 35 3.86%
Weezing 34 3.75%
Honchkrow 33 3.64%
Poliwrath 31 3.42%
Ambipom 30 3.31%
Wobbuffet 27 2.98%
Steelix 22 2.43%
Clefable 22 2.43%
Houndoom 21 2.32%
Nidoqueen 21 2.32%
Charizard 20 2.21%
Electivire 20 2.21%
Ursaring 20 2.21%
Serperior 19 2.10%
Primeape 18 1.99%
Omastar 17 1.88%
Gardevoir 16 1.77%
Exeggutor 16 1.77%
Blastoise 16 1.77%
Sceptile 16 1.77%
Swellow 15 1.66%
Blaziken 13 1.43%
Marowak 13 1.43%
Archeops 13 1.43%
Claydol 13 1.43%
Feraligatr 12 1.32%
Braviary 12 1.32%
Ludicolo 10 1.10%
Cradily 10 1.10%
Lilligant 10 1.10%
Victreebel 10 1.10%
Durant 10 1.10%

 

NU:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  8100 1350
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Steelix 409 30.30%
Blastoise 359 26.59%
Golbat 314 23.26%
Gallade 268 19.85%
Mismagius 232 17.19%
Charizard 224 16.59%
Primeape 206 15.26%
Clefable 195 14.44%
Slowbro 180 13.33%
Slowking 169 12.52%
Sceptile 165 12.22%
Espeon 161 11.93%
Druddigon 159 11.78%
Rhydon 157 11.63%
Houndoom 153 11.33%
Ambipom 140 10.37%
Gardevoir 140 10.37%
Lilligant 117 8.67%
Swellow 113 8.37%
Braviary 108 8.00%
Durant 108 8.00%
Vanilluxe 108 8.00%
Kangaskhan 102 7.56%
Archeops 94 6.96%
Omastar 93 6.89%
Aerodactyl 91 6.74%
Bibarel 91 6.74%
Linoone 88 6.52%
Altaria 84 6.22%
Whimsicott 82 6.07%
Roselia 81 6.00%
Froslass 79 5.85%
Musharna 79 5.85%
Serperior 77 5.70%
Dusknoir 72 5.33%
Cryogonal 72 5.33%
Ursaring 71 5.26%
Ferroseed 67 4.96%
Sableye 66 4.89%
Ludicolo 65 4.81%
Throh 62 4.59%
Feraligatr 61 4.52%
Golurk 61 4.52%
Electivire 59 4.37%
Hariyama 56 4.15%
Nidoqueen 55 4.07%
Raichu 55 4.07%
Blaziken 54 4.00%
Miltank 53 3.93%
Claydol 51 3.78%
Probopass 50 3.70%
Wobbuffet 47 3.48%
Escavalier 47 3.48%
Weezing 45 3.33%
Poliwrath 45 3.33%
Accelgor 45 3.33%
Quagsire 43 3.19%
Hitmontop 42 3.11%
Lapras 42 3.11%
Scyther 42 3.11%
Golem 41 3.04%
Hitmonchan 40 2.96%
Aggron 40 2.96%
Tauros 39 2.89%
Crawdaunt 39 2.89%
Magmortar 38 2.81%
Pikachu 37 2.74%
Sawk 36 2.67%
Emboar 35 2.59%
Stunfisk 34 2.52%
Samurott 33 2.44%
Lickilicky 31 2.30%
Seismitoad 30 2.22%
Haunter 28 2.07%
Exeggutor 25 1.85%
Smeargle 25 1.85%
Hitmonlee 25 1.85%
Alomomola 25 1.85%
Ampharos 24 1.78%
Ninetales 23 1.70%
Sandslash 23 1.70%
Munchlax 23 1.70%
Dodrio 22 1.63%
Gurdurr 22 1.63%
Crustle 21 1.56%
Amoonguss 21 1.56%
Carracosta 21 1.56%
Muk 20 1.48%
Jynx 20 1.48%
Victreebel 19 1.41%
Flareon 19 1.41%
Nidoking 19 1.41%
Shiftry 18 1.33%
Vileplume 18 1.33%
Sawsbuck 16 1.19%
Audino 16 1.19%
Stoutland 14 1.04%

 

Doubles:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  2712 452
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Hitmontop 117 25.88%
Togekiss 105 23.23%
Gengar 92 20.35%
Pelipper 87 19.25%
Gyarados 85 18.81%
Conkeldurr 82 18.14%
Metagross 82 18.14%
Hydreigon 80 17.70%
Volcarona 80 17.70%
Salamence 74 16.37%
Ferrothorn 69 15.27%
Kingdra 69 15.27%
Scizor 66 14.60%
Reuniclus 65 14.38%
Tyranitar 63 13.94%
Excadrill 62 13.72%
Blastoise 61 13.50%
Porygon2 61 13.50%
Torkoal 52 11.50%
Snorlax 48 10.62%
Jolteon 47 10.40%
Mienshao 42 9.29%
Arcanine 41 9.07%
Hariyama 37 8.19%
Manectric 35 7.74%
Marowak 35 7.74%
Lilligant 31 6.86%
Ludicolo 29 6.42%
Darmanitan 27 5.97%
Swampert 27 5.97%
Chandelure 25 5.53%
Dragonite 25 5.53%
Cofagrigus 24 5.31%
Crobat 24 5.31%
Kabutops 24 5.31%
Amoonguss 23 5.09%
Milotic 23 5.09%
Gliscor 22 4.87%
Bronzong 21 4.65%
Whimsicott 21 4.65%
Magnezone 20 4.42%
Typhlosion 20 4.42%
Chansey 19 4.20%
Starmie 19 4.20%
Bisharp 18 3.98%
Serperior 18 3.98%
Golduck 17 3.76%
Breloom 16 3.54%
Eelektross 16 3.54%
Slowbro 16 3.54%
Gigalith 15 3.32%
Venusaur 15 3.32%
Hippowdon 14 3.10%
Slowking 13 2.88%
Tentacruel 13 2.88%
Cloyster 11 2.43%
Dusclops 11 2.43%
Electrode 11 2.43%
Lucario 11 2.43%
Mamoswine 10 2.21%
Skarmory 10 2.21%
Ambipom 9 1.99%
Haxorus 9 1.99%
Jellicent 9 1.99%
Medicham 9 1.99%
Porygon-Z 9 1.99%
Rhyperior 9 1.99%
Escavalier 8 1.77%
Krookodile 8 1.77%
Lanturn 8 1.77%
Vaporeon 8 1.77%
Aerodactyl 7 1.55%
Alakazam 7 1.55%
Gardevoir 7 1.55%
Machamp 7 1.55%
Smeargle 6 1.33%
Blissey 5 1.11%
Charizard 5 1.11%
Donphan 5 1.11%
Mandibuzz 5 1.11%
Raichu 5 1.11%
Scrafty 5 1.11%
Shuckle 5 1.11%

LC:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  2424 404
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Misdreavus 300 74.26%
Mienfoo 249 61.63%
Ferroseed 200 49.50%
Vullaby 179 44.31%
Porygon 142 35.15%
Clamperl 110 27.23%
Chinchou 97 24.01%
Timburr 87 21.53%
Onix 82 20.30%
Grimer 75 18.56%
Diglett 55 13.61%
Munchlax 52 12.87%
Bronzor 44 10.89%
Tentacool 43 10.64%
Staryu 38 9.41%
Elekid 36 8.91%
Meowth 31 7.67%
Gastly 28 6.93%
Magnemite 28 6.93%
Larvesta 27 6.68%
Frillish 26 6.44%
Dwebble 25 6.19%
Ponyta 25 6.19%
Pawniard 22 5.45%
Shellder 22 5.45%
Slowpoke 19 4.70%
Taillow 19 4.70%
Rufflet 16 3.96%
Voltorb 15 3.71%
Cottonee 14 3.47%
Koffing 14 3.47%
Abra 14 3.47%
Yamask 14 3.47%
Axew 13 3.22%
Ekans 11 2.72%
Hippopotas 10 2.48%
Magby 10 2.48%
Sandshrew 10 2.48%
Zubat 10 2.48%
Drilbur 9 2.23%
Tirtouga 9 2.23%
Venonat 9 2.23%
Darumaka 8 1.98%
Sandile 8 1.98%
Charmander 7 1.73%
Solosis 7 1.73%
Krabby 6 1.49%
Psyduck 6 1.49%
Wynaut 5 1.24%
Anorith 5 1.24%
Drifloon 5 1.24%

 

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Normal discussion thread rules apply.

 

This is the first month in a cycle as such we will be using 1.7 to move down and 6.7 to move up.

 

No usage based movements this month, discuss whatever you feel is wrong with the existing tiers if you wish. I'll let the discussion come to an end on Tuesday given I am sure people are busy with the PTS, myself included.

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2 minutes ago, soyhector said:

I think we should wait until sinnoh release. New pokemones will have impact on the composition of all tiers.

That

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1 hour ago, razimove said:

yeah lets just wait 4 months.

didn't they said a long time ago there were gonna be 3 PTS before its release?

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20 hours ago, razimove said:

yeah lets just wait 4 months.

If they release the PTS supposedly they should release sinnoh in less than 1 week. If not the PTS is absurd.

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For OU, UU, NU and Doubles, I don't see the need to ban or unban any pokemon this month.

When it comes to LC, I feel there is something wrong. I'm not concerned with Misdreavus being everywhere, Clamperl sweeping with ease or Mienfoo/Timburr dominating the meta, but I am concerned with how the tier is so centralized around all these threats. Imo, I feel one of the reason is Diglett or Arena Trap in general. Even with Team Preview, Diglett unlike Dugtrio in other tiers has remained very viable in LC. Diglett and Trapinch are both very problematic for grounded Poison, Fire, Steel, Electric and Rock types and, if those were more viable, I think the threats that I previously listed would not be as meta defining as they are now.

 

For instance, both Tentacool and Eviolite Chinchou would be able to stop Clamperl with more ease if they didn't fear getting ohko by Diglett. Fighting types in general would have more counters if Poison types were more viable. The need to play Misdreavus to counter the dominating fighting types of LC would also decrease if Poison types became more viable. One of the biggest bane of Special Defense Bronzor, a great Misdreavus counter, is getting knocked off and, since Knock Off spam can hardly be punished right now, it would be great if Sticky Hold users like Trubbish or Grimer became more viable to protect Bronzor. If there was no Diglett, Ponyta would be able to stand up to Misdreavus. Larvesta would be able to be played defensively more effectively against Misdreavus, but more importantly against Mienfoo that would then not be able to spam u-turn risk free. If it wasn't for Diglett, Abra would be more common to revenge kill fighting types and Scarf Elekid would be able to revenge kill Clamperl more reliably. I heard a lot of complaints about Baton Pass and, considering that Baton Passing into Arena Trap is imo one the ugliest combo of competitive play, Arena Trap is to me one of the reason why Baton Pass so annoying.

 

There is probably some down side to losing Diglett and perhaps Trapinch, maybe Volt Switch spam would become too difficult to deal with even though Numel would probably become more viable. However, I believe overall that test banning Diglett, Diglett/Trapinch or Arena Trap would help LC develop into a more healthy metagame.

TL;TR  Ban Diglett from LC.

 

edit: I was just reminded that Diglett is also a great memento user to help set up clamperl.

Edited by gbwead

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Polygon-Z to UU

Arcanine to UU

Mamoswine to OU

Machamp to NU

Honchkrow  to NU

Manectric to NU

Wobbuffet to UU

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Don't feel like anything should be moved up or down in any tier.

For the record people, we cannot disregard usage, things like Manectric to NU or Arcanine to UU are out of our control. Also if you want something to drop from a BL it'd help if you made a case for it, a post that showcases and explains why it should drop, it'd probably spawn more discussion about the topic and change some minds.

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26 minutes ago, mago1993 said:

Manectric NU or Arca9 to UU its very probably 

Ppl said machamp Nu? You are kidding me?

They are above the cutoff point so it's not doable

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16 hours ago, gbwead said:

For instance, both Tentacool and Eviolite Chinchou would be able to stop Clamperl with more ease if they didn't fear getting ohko by Diglett

Scarf Misdreavus / Gastly

16 hours ago, gbwead said:

Fighting types in general would have more counters if Poison types were more viable. The need to play Misdreavus to counter the dominating fighting types of LC would also decrease if Poison types became more viable

Zubat

16 hours ago, gbwead said:

If there was no Diglett, Ponyta would be able to stand up to Misdreavus.

Flame charge turn 1

16 hours ago, gbwead said:

considering that Baton Passing into Arena Trap is imo one the ugliest combo of competitive play, Arena Trap is to me one of the reason why Baton Pass so annoying.

so you setup +4 ATK and pass it to Diglet to sweep, when you could be facing Koffing, w.o.w Misdreavus, Ferroseed, etc. Never seen it and it's probably a dumb idea to pass stats to diglet for a final sweep anyway, when other mons could do it better.

 

Anyway, for now 

Diglett  55  13.61%
Misdreavus 300  74.26%

I'd maybe start considering a test ban for Arena Trap if the usage rises tremendously, the reason Diglet isn't much used is because of its downsides that you didn't mention to make it seem banworthy.

Dugtrio and Diglet seem similar to me and I fail to see why one should be banned and the other can roam free.

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3 hours ago, Laz said:

Scarf Misdreavus / Gastly

Zubat

Flame charge turn 1

Scarf Misdreavus / Gastly can RK Clamperl, I never said otherwise, so I fail to see how your comment has anything to do with what I was talking about: the fact that both Chinchou and Tentacool struggle because of Diglett and yet would make decent check for Clamperl.

 

Zubat is a poison type not affected by Diglett. Once again, you just replied by saying something completly unrelated to what I was talking about. Koffing is a poison type immune to Diglett, Gastly too. Those are not Trubbish, Tentacool or Grimer. Grounded Poison types with a weakness to ground moves does not include Zubat.

 

There is no turn 1 if Diglett outspeeds you in 1v1...

 

3 hours ago, Laz said:

so you setup +4 ATK and pass it to Diglet to sweep, when you could be facing Koffing, w.o.w Misdreavus, Ferroseed, etc. Never seen it and it's probably a dumb idea to pass stats to diglet for a final sweep anyway, when other mons could do it better.

I didn't talk about setting up or passing stats to Diglett lmao. I talked about using baton pass. Maybe it didn't cross your mind, but dry baton pass into Diglett is possible.

 

3 hours ago, Laz said:

Anyway, for now 

Diglett  55  13.61%
Misdreavus 300  74.26%

I'd maybe start considering a test ban for Arena Trap if the usage rises tremendously, the reason Diglet isn't much used is because of its downsides that you didn't mention to make it seem banworthy.

Dugtrio and Diglet seem similar to me and I fail to see why one should be banned and the other can roam free.

If I didn't mention the downsides of playing Diglett, please let me know what those are. I never said Diglett was broken btw, just unhealthy, so it does have downsides ofc. Dugtrio is unable to stay above the cut-off point of OU and now of UU. Diglett is the 11th most used pokemon of LC where was Dugtrio is the 43th most used pokemon of UU and 62th most used pokemon in OU. That by itself shows that Dugtrio's impact on OU and UU is not as important as the impact Diglett has in LC. Dugtrio is also not the fastest pokemon of UU or NU. Diglett is the fastest pokemon of LC. 

 

When it comes to Misdreavus having high usage, there are 2 reasons imo: Misdreavus is both good and essential. Good, because there is a lack of counters to Misdreavus. Essential, because there is a lack of counters to fighting types. Removing Diglett from the metagame should add counters to Misdreavus or make the ones we already have more viable (Bronzor or Ponyta for instance) and should add more counters to fighting types (Trubbish, Grimer or Larvesta for instance). Therefore, it's only hypothetical but removing Diglett from the metagame should help lower the usage of Misdreavus, but also the usage of Mienfoo and Clamperl.

Edited by gbwead

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

the fact that both Chinchou and Tentacool struggle because of Diglett and yet would make decent check for Clamperl.

So does lanturn with Trio around in UU yet that poses no problem to u.

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Maybe it didn't cross your mind, but dry baton pass into Diglett is possible.

It didn't cross my mind because I fail to see any interesting situation where dry baton pass into diglet can be very helpful, some examples would be nice tbh ( also most stuff use uturn instead, baton pass is for other obvious purposes but that's not the topic anyway )

 

Scarf Chinchou doesn't fear diglet as long as rocks are set, and you could always trap diglet with Trapinch if you fear diglet that much, Giga drain + Quick attack can easily take care of it.

 

Anyway the usage clearly shows what might be broken and what may be not atm, we could theory-mon all day but at the end we have to be realistic, diglet isn't an issue in lc atm, at least not yet. And I'm always against limiting our few ressources.

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49 minutes ago, Laz said:

So does lanturn with Trio around in UU yet that poses no problem to u.

It's not a big issue because it is significantly more unlikely to face a Dugtrio in UU than facing a Diglett in LC. It's also not as big of an issue because Lanturn is a huge threat in UU. If Dugtrio can deal with that threat, that's fine. Diglett doesn't deal with the big threats of LC imo (misdreavus, fighting types or clamperl), it only helps them dominate more or protects them.

If a pokemon helps you deal with S rank mons, I think it's pretty good. If a mon supports S rank mons by screwing over all the potential counters to these S rank mons, that's bad.

 

49 minutes ago, Laz said:

It didn't cross my mind because I fail to see any interesting situation where dry baton pass into diglet can be very helpful, some examples would be nice tbh ( also most stuff use uturn instead, baton pass is for other obvious purposes but that's not the topic anyway )

 

Scarf Chinchou doesn't fear diglet as long as rocks are set, and you could always trap diglet with Trapinch if you fear diglet that much, Giga drain + Quick attack can easily take care of it.

 

Anyway the usage clearly shows what might be broken and what may be not atm, we could theory-mon all day but at the end we have to be realistic, diglet isn't an issue in lc atm, at least not yet. And I'm always against limiting our few ressources.

Scarf Chinchou doesn't fear Diglett, indeed. However, Scarf Chinchou can't stop Clamperl, so it's irrelevant imo. Clamperl is a huge threat and eviolite Chinchou can tank an hp grass and ohko Clamperl in return. 

 

Larvesta and Tentacool are decent switches against Venonat, but Venonat can dry baton pass into diglett and ohko wall larvesta or wall tentacool with simply rock slide or eq. Larvesta is a decent switch against Munna too, but not if Munna uses Baton Pass into Diglett. Sending electric types against Drifloon or Natu is risky because of dry baton pass. Baton Pass is not a big problem imo, I'm just mentioning how Arena Trap interacts with Baton Pass because some people have been concerned with Baton Pass in LC and Diglett doesn't help in any way. 

 

You talk about limiting ressources and yet that's exactly what Arena Trap is doing in LC. Trubbish, Grimer, Larvesta, Nosepass, Magnemite, Chinchou, Tentacool, Ponyta, Growlithe, Ekans and other lc mons are not as viable as they could be because of Arena Trap. Ressources to deal with big threats like Misdreavus, fighting types, Clamperl or Knock Off spam are limited because of Arena Trap.

 

Misdreavus is perhaps broken. However, banning Misdreavus will only make Fighting types better and we would lose a revenge killer for Clamperl. This is not good and would lead us in chain banning multiple lc threats. I'm not saying we should keep something broken in LC just to check other broken things. I'm saying that before going on the path of chain banning everything, it's probably best to take a step back and figure out a way to make the tier healthier. I personally think getting rid of Diglett or Arena Trap would help. 

Edited by gbwead

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I wonder what's broken, Deepseatooth or Arena trap, i have my lil guess.

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