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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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17 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

it has literally only 2 CHECKS

You dont know what a check is, it has a ton of checks. It needs to be dealt with offensively, which there are plenty of options considering how slow it is. Before there was an extreme lack of wallbreakers in the tier and it was dominated by bulky teams. I believe it's healthy for the tier to introduce some new wallbreakers. 

 

23 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

UU was unenjoyable already and you guys are only making it worse, bringing broken mons to check more broken mons.

A lot of people would disagree, in fact many people were calling it the worst tier for how slow it was. 

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10 hours ago, RLotus said:

You dont know what a check is

I think that you are not aware what a check is (and your absolute lack of competitive accolades + our latest PSL battle only proves my point). Additionally you haven't abolished a single of my statements. Here, let me enlighten you:

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

 

Now, due to Mamoswine's access to Ice Shard, you cannot safely check it every time. Only under specific circumstances. The only 2 checks I mentioned are also shaky, as Bronzong has no reliable recovery, while Slowbro is sucpectible to all forms of entry hazards and if it is only chipped, it risks getting 2 shoted. Every time Mamoswine is out, it's a gamble- will it Icicle Crash or will it EQ? Let's not forget it is a perfect lead due to Oblivious which guarantees rocks in every situation no matter what, has access to great coverage move in Superpower and can utilize endeavor, so it's not a one trick pony.

10 hours ago, RLotus said:

it has a ton of checks

Does it? Let's take a look at UU:

Typhlosion is a check for sure as it's faster and resists Mamoswine's priority.

Bronzong and Slowbro like I mentioned earlier.

Weavile is faster and has access to Low Kick, while also resisting Mamo's priority.

Forret can 2hko Mamo with Gyro, but it will take a huge lot from EQ.

Azumarill can KO chipped Mamo with CB Aqua Jet, but if it fails to, it dies to EQ after rocks.

Heracross needs to stay above 40% during the entire match or Mamoswine kills it with Ice Shard.

 

All of those checks are very shaky, many of them are suspectible to hazards (which funnily, Mamoswine can set up itself) and literally entire rest of the tier gets completely obliterated by it. Does not look like a "ton of checks" for me.

 

Now, UU is a very slow tier in general and almost all of the faster pokes are taking huge chunks from Mamoswine's priorty (or get outright killed) or are not able to KO it right back, meaning Mamoswine can just stay, tank the attack and kill.

10 hours ago, RLotus said:

It needs to be dealt with offensively, which there are plenty of options considering how slow it is.

 

It's offensive checks are severely limited due to it's access to Ice Shard, so your speed argument is highly irrelevant. I'm sure you are aware that 80 base speed isn't exactly slow in a tier where pokes with 85+ base speed are very rare.

10 hours ago, RLotus said:

Before there was an extreme lack of wallbreakers in the tier and it was dominated by bulky teams. I believe it's healthy for the tier to introduce some new wallbreakers. 

Healthy tier isn't a tier where we have a poke that outspeeds the majority of the metagame and is able to OHKO/ 2hko it, has a priority move to deal with most of offensive mons. You must be terribly blind or highly inexperienced to not see how incredibly centralizing, unhealthy and offensively overpowered Mamoswine is.

 

10 hours ago, RLotus said:

A lot of people would disagree, in fact many people were calling it the worst tier for how slow it was. 

It's slow not because of what mons are in it, but because of people who play that tier. Playing defense, stalling with status/ hazards and having a defensive switch-in for every mon in existence is easier than predicting, making plays and winning the game with pure skill. Why am I even stating the obvious?

 

 

Also @jfk @suigin I'm glad you guys recognized my sarcasm, kinda sad that we couldn't get Metagross down when it was below the cut-off point in usage :(

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On 6/30/2019 at 1:40 PM, gbwead said:

@NikhilR I agree that Crustle, Omastar and Steelix were all the best counters to Honchrow back then. Unfortunetly, none of those have reliable recovery and some lacked utility. Togekiss has better answers in OU compared to Honchrow and gets outsped by a significant portion of the tier. Honchrow can hax anything that doesn't have shell armor or battle armor. That's why the imo Honchrow in NU is much worse than Togekiss in OU and why one deserves to stay ban.

Hmmm i believe what made togekiss a thread wasn't much its strategy well part of it was, but its move pool which is extensive that mon has a decent speed and incredible bulk which the strat would be pray to flinch.

 

most sets people use now days are these

Bold/Calm air slash,roost/soft boiled,healbell/twave, nasty plot (stall breaker togekiss)

 

timid full speed full hp with nasty plot,sub,air slash,aura sphere (used in compositions like dual screens and regular offensive teams)

 

[i don't think mons to out speed would work well on this one unless you sac one poke to lower its hp]

 

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 96-116 (48.9 - 59.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 192-228 (97.9 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO  (with the boost of 1 nasty plot)

 

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 78-94 (53.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 156-184 (106.8 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 138-164 (71.8 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
i could continue with this but i'm lazy af those calcs were without even screens on.

 

timid/modest scarfed all out attacker air slash,aura sphere,x,x (used for offensive teams)

 

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 138-164 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Ttar kills but don't we forget about our pokes being able to switch into others and pursuit doesn't do the damage on the other hand this thing 2ho ko's most of its counters or flinches to death everything offensive that are not one of those mons i mentioned.

 

I think there is more their counters where to be seen as offensive mangezone,lanturn, TTar, for some excadrill, but the truth is this poke can just go in one turn predict that and eliminate that thread or gain damage on it that way it exerts more tension in the match for  the other player at the end if this works it would be an easy flinch sweep. 

 

On the defensive side to play stall people had to get unusual gimmicks for this which is aerodactyl careful and milotic timid (to out speed).

 

this pokes stats are incredible i don't see it broken but it kindda bothers me trying to figure out what kind of set is my opponent gonna have so if you don't guess right you might end up losing a crucial poke.

 

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19 hours ago, RysPicz said:

In the entire tier, it has literally only 2 CHECKS

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Typhlosion is a check for sure as it's faster and resists Mamoswine's priority.

Bronzong and Slowbro like I mentioned earlier.

Weavile is faster and has access to Low Kick, while also resisting Mamo's priority.

Forret can 2hko Mamo with Gyro, but it will take a huge lot from EQ.

Azumarill can KO chipped Mamo with CB Aqua Jet, but if it fails to, it dies to EQ after rocks.

Heracross needs to stay above 40% during the entire match or Mamoswine kills it with Ice Shard.

 

All of those checks

 

Well, you've proven yourself wrong here. You can now see why I thought you didn't understand what a check was. Here are some calcs of pokemon that, with a free switch in, check mamoswine.

 

Spoiler

252 SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 372-440 (103 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 49-58 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO


252 SpA Typhlosion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 390-462 (108 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion: 57-68 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 288-342 (79.7 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 56-66 (16.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO


252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 686-810 (190 - 224.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 118-140 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage


252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 626-738 (173.4 - 204.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 121-142 (46.1 - 54.1%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 387-458 (107.2 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 66-78 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- 83.8% chance to 4HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 340-402 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 213-252 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 175-207 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 404-476 (111.9 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

(The 80 base speed pokemon and below require a scarf, obviously) I've only included pokemon that kill mamo from full or after rocks. When we take into consideration pokemon that can check mamo after chipping, there are many more. I've also only included pokemon in the uu tier. When we look beyond into NU, there are many more viable checks to mamoswine availabe.

 

Spoiler

252 Atk Life Orb Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 247-292 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 113-134 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 331-391 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 142-168 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Blaziken Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 446-528 (123.5 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 62-74 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO


252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 416-492 (115.2 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Durant: 43-51 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO


252 Atk Choice Band Emboar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 678-800 (187.8 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 66-78 (18.2 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO


252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 408-480 (113 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 142-168 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 458-542 (126.8 - 150.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 133-157 (48 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 361-426 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Electivire: 130-153 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO


252 SpA Magmortar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 432-510 (119.6 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 65-77 (22.3 - 26.4%) -- 10.6% chance to 4HKO


Haunter and Mismagius can Wilo
 

I know a lot of these are unorthodox, but I am demonstrating the ability for the metagame to adapt to something more offensive. 

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Does not look like a "ton of checks" for me.

Yes, there are a ton. 

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

All of those checks are very shaky, many of them are suspectible to hazards (which funnily, Mamoswine can set up itself) and literally entire rest of the tier gets completely obliterated by it. Does not look like a "ton of checks" for me.

Yes, you must keep most of these pokemon healthy in order to keep mamoswine in check. This is how pokemon is played, you have to manage your resources correctly in order to not get swept. With so many checks, it also is very possible to have several checks in a team. I don't think this is unhealthy for the metagame.

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

It's offensive checks are severely limited due to it's access to Ice Shard, so your speed argument is highly irrelevant.

Well, no, it's not irrelevant. Mamoswine has to use ice shard to hit these pokemon and like I just addressed, keeping certain pokemon healthy to deal with mamo throughout the match is crucial in playing against it. 

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

You must be terribly blind or highly inexperienced to not see how incredibly centralizing, unhealthy and offensively overpowered Mamoswine is.

I have demonstrated that there are many options to kill mamoswine, so mamo is not going to be centralizing in that way. Yes, there are few defensive options to handle mamo, but a wallbreaker to the overpowered walls in uu is necessary. Things like forre, gligar, mandi, dusclops, snorlax, and now p2, were able to wall a huge portion of the tier. I'd like to look at a couple of defensive options for mamo that i think you overlooked. (still, there aren't many).
 

 

Spoiler
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 95-113 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 121-144 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 97.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 192-229 (51.3 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 133-156 (41 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Shelmet: 107-126 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Shelmet and misdreavus, I know, aren't very viable, but I thought I'd include them anyways lol.

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

It's slow not because of what mons are in it, but because of people who play that tier. Playing defense, stalling with status/ hazards and having a defensive switch-in for every mon in existence is easier than predicting, making plays and winning the game with pure skill. Why am I even stating the obvious?

This is very incorrect. We've seen a shift into more offensive play in both OU and NU, where wallbreakers are much more abundant. Bulkier teams still exist, but it's a huge difference from what we're seeing in UU. No it's not the fault of the people that choose to use bulky teams, it's the fault of the metagame that punishes more offensive play.

 

That pretty much concludes why I think mamoswine is not overpowered and is necessary in UU. 

 

8 hours ago, RysPicz said:

(and your absolute lack of competitive accolades + our latest PSL battle only proves my point)

Since you couldn't help yourself but to make this discussion into some kind of personal beef, like the drama queen you are, I guess I should respond to this. No, I don't have any official wins, but I have many non-automated unofficial wins and have been a horse in several TT wins. This on top of the respect of peers that I consider much better than you. I find it funny that you would mention a win over me (in a tier I very much dislike and don't play), after your embarrassing losses this season. I've clearly been much more successful this season.

Edited by RLotus
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4 hours ago, RLotus said:

Well, you've proven yourself wrong here. You can now see why I thought you didn't understand what a check was. Here are some calcs of pokemon that, with a free switch in, check mamoswine.

Oh I see we're skipping the other important parts of a "check" definition to suit yourself. Here, let me help you out tinyboi:

 

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

 

And switching into rocks isn't even the worst case scenario, it's the most common battle condition. Such a distinguished, experienced and recognized competitive player as yourself should know it, yeah?

 

You calcs make absolutely no point. I mentioned those pokes myself. I also don't know why are you calcing Ice Shard vs Azumarill and not EQ, additionally adding a calc on Mamo after rocks to just prove your point which makes totally no sense whatsoever. Also keep in mind, we play 50s in MMO, not 100s, so your calcs look a bit different. Let me give you a short lesson: if you wanna make that calc relevant, it should look like this:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 152-180 (82.1 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 146-173 (83.4 - 98.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

And Azu absolutely has to aqua jet or it risks getting KOd.

4 hours ago, RLotus said:

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 626-738 (173.4 - 204.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 121-142 (46.1 - 54.1%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO

If Mamoswine runs Jolly, it's a speed tie and a gamble, that's not a check, it's a 50/50 and a gamble at best unless Medicham is scarf. It's obvious that every scarf user is capable of scaring off Mamoswine, but I thought I'd point it out for you, especially after I see you are calcing on level 100s.

4 hours ago, RLotus said:

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 340-402 (94.1 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 213-252 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 109-133 (67.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Great check you got there lmao
 
I'm going through NU calcs and I don't even know where to start tearing apart those calcs. Why are you calcing Ice Shard everywhere? Let me bring up something from my previous post which you seem to have missed (again):
12 hours ago, RysPicz said:

meaning Mamoswine can just stay, tank the attack and kill.

Why would Mamoswine Ice Shard a Kangaskhan when it can EQ/ Superpower it???? Same goes for 90% of the other completely irrelevant calcs you made, which prove nothing of your point.
4 hours ago, RLotus said:

Yes, there are a ton. 

DAMN MAN WHAT AN ARGUMENT I'M TOTALLY CONVINCED XDDDD
4 hours ago, RLotus said:

I know a lot of these are unorthodox, but I am demonstrating the ability for the metagame to adapt to something more offensive. 

There's a difference between "unorthodox" and "unviable". How is it possible that Life didn't give you a single lesson about taking part in competitive discussions while you're in NORE?
4 hours ago, RLotus said:

Yes, you must keep most of these pokemon healthy in order to keep mamoswine in check. This is how pokemon is played, you have to manage your resources correctly in order to not get swept. With so many checks, it also is very possible to have several checks in a team. I don't think this is unhealthy for the metagame.

Thank you for stating the obvious, I believe you're forgetting that on the other side is another player who sees your team, knows what he's weak to, predicts and if he has a Mamoswine, even with your 5 super viable checks like Yanmega that dies to ice shard after rocks, you're up for a hard time. If something gets a "free switch" on Mamoswine, it's on 95% because Mamoswine already killed something (and the mon comes to revenge kill/ scare mamo away)= it has already done most of it's job. You are writing that something gets a free switch on Mamoswine, and how actually is a mon getting a free switch on it? The only options I see is via u-turn as mamo switches in, or by predicting, which should not be part of the discussion about a pokemon's viability and level of powercreep in the tier.
4 hours ago, RLotus said:

Well, no, it's not irrelevant. Mamoswine has to use ice shard to hit these pokemon and like I just addressed, keeping certain pokemon healthy to deal with mamo throughout the match is crucial in playing against it. 

Like I mentioned earlier, you also need to keep your checks healthy. Pokemon battles are usually played 6v6 you know, it's not simple to keep all your mons non-chipped through the entire match.

 

4 hours ago, RLotus said:

This is very incorrect. We've seen a shift into more offensive play in both OU and NU, where wallbreakers are much more abundant. Bulkier teams still exist, but it's a huge difference from what we're seeing in UU. No it's not the fault of the people that choose to use bulky teams, it's the fault of the metagame that punishes more offensive play.

 

That pretty much concludes why I think mamoswine is not overpowered and is necessary in UU. 

???????????? How does this statement prove that Mamoswine is not overpowered? You're mistaking the terms. You can say that it's not "unhealthy" but according to calcs, Mamoswine is overpowered. Only an idiot can argue about that after seeing that it can OHKO/ 2hko the entire tier with the only exception of Bronzong. Additionally we do not talk about OU or NU here, it's UU which is in question and it's well-being, I've been playing offense in that tier at the time when it had eviolite P2 and cofag in it and I was winning officials and team tournaments with Aura. I agree that it is a metagame that punishes more offensive play but it does not mean that we should bring a totally broken mon into the tier and completely fuck it over.

 

4 hours ago, RLotus said:

Since you couldn't help yourself but to make this discussion into some kind of personal beef, like the drama queen you are, I guess I should respond to this. No, I don't have any official wins, but I have many non-automated unofficial wins and have been a horse in several TT wins. This on top of the respect of peers that I consider much better than you. I find it funny that you would mention a win over me (in a tier I very much dislike and don't play), after your embarrassing losses this season. I've clearly been much more successful this season.

See tinyboi, in my books you're a complete no-name. No official wins, pretty much zero accolades, you got destroyed by me in our latest UU match in maybe 16 turns (and this is after I returned to the game after 5 month absence), yet ego on the level of bowser. He could at least back his ego up with quite a few official wins. Actually when I sent the previous post I remembered I had a bout with you, I think 2 seasons ago, but you're such a noname that I just completely forgot about who you are and what happened back then. If a person like that, who additionally never participated in a single discussion tells me that "I don't know what a check is", then you should be up for some fun with me. If you have no respect for me, don't expect it from me, especially with your passive aggressive stance. Your competitive accolades are of no comparisment to me both individual and TT wise, considering yourself better than me is a joke that actually made me laugh. The difference between us, is that you are the guy who needs to be coached, while I'm the person who coaches if needed. You're absolutely terrible kiddo, at both this game and discussing, I kinda regret sacrificing so much time to reply to your post, which pretty much embarasses yourself and exposes your lacks of knowledge and experience. You're light years behind me on a competitive level and I find it hilarious that a noname like you tries to prove that you're more successful based on one PSL season. Grow up, learn a bit about the game and participating in a discussion, maybe read some previous discussions (I would highly recommend reading @gbwead's posts, somehow I can always have a civilised discussion with him without any personal trips despite our opinions differ 90% of the time, maybe you should also learn a bit respect for people way better than you will ever be? ;v) ).

 

Come back when you will learn how discussion works. Short clues pointed out for you:

*If you include rocks on one side, include them on second

*Calc on level 50

*Make your calcs have some sense, there's no reason for a mon to use a weaker move if it can outspeed and strike with a stronger one

*Unhealthy =/= Centralizing =/= Offensive uber

 

E:

If you are seriously pointing out Shelmet as a viable answer to Mamoswine, if we seriously need to reach for such obscure mons to counter it, then it deserves to be instabanned.

 

E2:

Im done educating you about how to participate in a dicussion, I'm not here to trade insults but to discuss Mamoswine as an offensive uber which additionally makes an entire playstyle (stall) unviable due to it's ability of OHKOing / 2hkoing the entire tier bar Bronzong, being overcentralizing due to its ridiculous power and becoming pretty much like Snorlax in 2014 or 2015, too good not to use. Try to address those points in your next post, if you will make one, that is. 

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.
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21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

 

 

I'll start by saying you're using the definition of check that you grabbed from smogon in a very rigid way. Yes, if these offensive pokemon are chipped enough they cease to be a check to mamoswine. But, something like slowbro and bronzong are not a check either according to your reasoning. In the absolute worst case scenario every hazard is up and slowbro has been chipped to a low percent, so mamoswine kills it. In fact slowbro checks pretty much nothing, because any pokemon faster can kill it in the worst case scenario. You see how silly this is?

 

So, yes, yanmega is a check to mamoswine as long as hazards stay off, but I'll admit it is beyond unreliable to use as a mamoswine check, you got me there man.

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

You calcs make absolutely no point.

 

My point was that there are many pokemon that live an ice shard and kill it back. In respeonse to this

 

On 7/10/2019 at 2:11 AM, RysPicz said:

all of the faster pokes are taking huge chunks from Mamoswine's priorty (or get outright killed)

 

I'm sure the "get ouright killed" part was an exaggeration, but very few pokemon actually get ohkod by ice shard. 

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I also don't know why are you calcing Ice Shard vs Azumarill and not EQ

 

Because under the scenario I presented, aqua jet is likely killing mamo. How exactly are you getting an EQ off....

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Why would Mamoswine Ice Shard a Kangaskhan when it can EQ/ Superpower it???? Same goes for 90% of the other completely irrelevant calcs you made, which prove nothing of your point.

 

Because, as I demonstrated fake out into double edge has a good chance to kill mamo, assuming jolly life orb kanga. Let me redo the calc, since the level 100 calcs could confuse some people. I thought the difference was minimal enough to get the point across anyway, my bad. 

 

252 Atk Life Orb Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 43-52 (23.2 - 28.1%) -- 84.9% chance to 4HKO
 
252 Atk Life Orb Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 130-153 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
As you can see, mid rolls of both fake out and double edge will kill mamo. i forgot to mention low kick, but whatever same point. So, again, how exactly are you getting that eq off? lol..
 
21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

If Mamoswine runs Jolly, it's a speed tie and a gamble, that's not a check, it's a 50/50 and a gamble at best unless Medicham is scarf

 

Like I said in my previous post, any pokemon base 80 and below will need to be scarf in order to check mamo.

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

It's obvious that every scarf user is capable of scaring off Mamoswine

 

UHHHH ok. Yes indeed this is obvious. Then why are you saying things like this:

 

On 7/9/2019 at 3:05 PM, RysPicz said:

it has literally only 2 CHECKS

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

How does this statement prove that Mamoswine is not overpowered?

When I said that concludes why i think mamo isn't overpowered, I was summarizing the entire post. I can see how that formatting could be misunderstood, my bad.

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Additionally we do not talk about OU or NU here, it's UU which is in question and it's well-being,

 

What I said about OU and NU was a rebuttal to what you said here:
 

On 7/10/2019 at 2:11 AM, RysPicz said:

It's slow not because of what mons are in it, but because of people who play that tier. Playing defense, stalling with status/ hazards and having a defensive switch-in for every mon in existence is easier than predicting, making plays and winning the game with pure skill. Why am I even stating the obvious?

 

People playing more offensively in those other tiers indicate it's a problem with the tier and not the player base.

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I agree that it is a metagame that punishes more offensive play but it does not mean that we should bring a totally broken mon into the tier and completely fuck it over.

 

Oh, I guess you agree with me now.

 

It seems you did the same thing LOL

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

being overcentralizing due to its ridiculous power and becoming pretty much like Snorlax in 2014 or 2015

 

Hmmm, how exactly does the OU meta from 2014 or 2015 relate to

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

it's UU which is in question and it's well-being

 

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

DAMN MAN WHAT AN ARGUMENT I'M TOTALLY CONVINCED XDDDD

 

I haven't seen anything disproving that these things do indeed check mamo. If you think not then why exactly?

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I believe you're forgetting that on the other side is another player who sees your team, knows what he's weak to, predicts and if he has a Mamoswine, even with your 5 super viable checks like Yanmega that dies to ice shard after rocks, you're up for a hard time.

 

Yes, indeed. We play a game where one player must outplay the other. 

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

You are writing that something gets a free switch on Mamoswine, and how actually is a mon getting a free switch on it?


How about playing offensively and maintaining momentum so that you give mamoswine a minimal amount of room to work. Novel idea, I know.

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Such a distinguished, experienced and recognized competitive player as yourself should know it, yeah?

 

Hey, thanks. Just when I thought this was turning into a shitfest.

 

21 hours ago, RysPicz said:

See tinyboi, in my books you're a complete no-name. No official wins, pretty much zero accolades, you got destroyed by me in our latest UU match in maybe 16 turns (and this is after I returned to the game after 5 month absence), yet ego on the level of bowser. He could at least back his ego up with quite a few official wins. Actually when I sent the previous post I remembered I had a bout with you, I think 2 seasons ago, but you're such a noname that I just completely forgot about who you are and what happened back then. If a person like that, who additionally never participated in a single discussion tells me that "I don't know what a check is", then you should be up for some fun with me. If you have no respect for me, don't expect it from me, especially with your passive aggressive stance. Your competitive accolades are of no comparisment to me both individual and TT wise, considering yourself better than me is a joke that actually made me laugh. The difference between us, is that you are the guy who needs to be coached, while I'm the person who coaches if needed. You're absolutely terrible kiddo, at both this game and discussing, I kinda regret sacrificing so much time to reply to your post, which pretty much embarasses yourself and exposes your lacks of knowledge and experience. You're light years behind me on a competitive level and I find it hilarious that a noname like you tries to prove that you're more successful based on one PSL season. Grow up, learn a bit about the game and participating in a discussion, maybe read some previous discussions (I would highly recommend reading @gbwead's posts, somehow I can always have a civilised discussion with him without any personal trips despite our opinions differ 90% of the time, maybe you should also learn a bit respect for people way better than you will ever be? ;v) ).

Oh....

 

 

Edited by RLotus
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Let's please take a step back here. Unless I am mistaken, there has only been 2 UU tournaments so far. That's not a lot of data even though Mamoswine was played a significant amount of times in these tournaments. Mamoswine is a threat, no one is denying that. Managing Mamoswine seems like a difficult task, but I believe it's way too early to give up.

 

When it comes to the Mamoswine + Magneton combo that I have seen mentioned, I tried it and it is effective. However, playing these two pokemons together opens you up to some serious weaknesses. For instance, these pokemons have pretty similar flaws: both are weak to fire and fighting moves while resisting electric and poison moves. The only defensive synergy in this combo is the fact that Magneton resists Steel and Grass moves against which Mamoswine is weak and that's not much at all. Ofc, two pokemons with similar flaws is not a big deal since you can add 4 more pokemon, but it does force you to teambuild in a certain direction by probably having to add something like Jellicent/Slowbro/Mantine. All I am saying is that Mamoswine + Magneton is good, but the drawback is important too. Also, I would like to add that Magneton can't OHKO, but Bronzong can with EQ, so the Magneton player is facing some serious risks when he/she is trying to trap a Bronzong. Imo, leftovers Bronzong is fine.

Mamoswine is incredible offensively, but the defensive typing is such an issue for it. When looking at the UU tier, I don't think it can freely switch on anything aside from Electrode. For that reason, since Mamoswine does struggle to come in play, I feel it is acceptable if it isn't easily walled. We just need more time before jumping at each other's throat imo.

Also, Shelmet is op.

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