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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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I don't think P2 is a great switch. Your calc seems to be Timid P-Z, but if it was Modest it would do up to 48%. P2 is therefore forced to be full hp on the switch in and must spam recover while P-Z can spam Tri Attack waiting for the status or the crit. Like I said, I'm on the fence regarding P-Z, my gut is telling me it's too powerful.

 

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10 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't think P2 is a great switch. Your calc seems to be Timid P-Z, but if it was Modest it would do up to 48%. P2 is therefore forced to be full hp on the switch in and must spam recover while P-Z can spam Tri Attack waiting for the status or the crit. Like I said, I'm on the fence regarding P-Z, my gut is telling me it's too powerful.

 

if we talk about a modest p-z then we can add more answers to it offensively because it loses more speed... personally i think p-z is worth getting another test!

about mamoswine i believe it will find a good place in uu.. i dont think its broken or bad..

and after further research i believe haxorus is gonna be broken indeed

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So, here we have nasty plot (Also assuming timid p-z not triggering spa boosts on download, or assuming adaptability)
 
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 97-116 (50.5 - 60.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 122-146 (63.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 188 HP / 192+ SpD Snorlax: 174-205 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
It also outspeeds 2 of the most offensive mons in the tier aka medicham and heracross.
Finally, it isnt that frail, an healthy p-z can effortlessly survive a non boosted eq from krookodile and even better from the likes of flygon.
 
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 118-140 (73.7 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 105-124 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 106-126 (66.2 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 123-145 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Endure reversal is risky by that tri attack factor)
Finally, choiced trick can permanently mess with those walls and bear in mind that no wall that can decently stop porygon-z has reliable recovery which makes this even harder to deal with.
My stand on p-z is no.
 
 
 
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On 6/29/2019 at 12:58 AM, Munya said:

Normal discussion thread rules apply.

 

This is the final month in a cycle as such we will be using 4.36 up & down.

To UU from OU:
Umbreon, Porygon2,  Zoroark

 

Possible to UU from BL

Porygon-Z, Mamoswine, Haxorus


To UU from NU:
Manectric, Electrode

 

Possible to NU from BL2:

Honchkrow

 

To NU from UU: 
Wobbuffet

 

Feel free to discuss.


From OU/BL1 to UU:

I would like to see what these new mouvement will bring to the tiers,
 Some seem much more threatening than others (PZ, Haxorus), and have already been tested previously. but I think they could all have their place because meta changed a lot these last month.

My vote:
Umbreon -> UU
Porygon2 -> UU
Zoroark -> UU
Porygon-Z -> UU
Mamoswine -> UU
Haxorus -> UU



From NU to UU:

I don't understand how Manectric has enought usage to be UU. But Usage is Usage I think, so leave it where we brought it (not me I swear)

My vote:

Manectric -> UU
Electrode -> UU


From UU/BL2 to NU:

Honchrow was NU 5 month ago, and TC decided to ban it and I keep the same opinion that I have. I'm against Honchrow in NU.
Wobbuffet.. Move from Uber to NU because of Team Preview.. I'm not surprised to see him come down

My vote:

Honchrow BL2 -> BL2
Wobbuffet -> NU

 

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15 hours ago, Arielle said:

Something tells me that people that want togekiss to be ubers are people who use conkeldurr....that 13% usage vs almost 30% lol.

It is true that high usage of a mon dictates its viability / strength, but if a mon has low usage that doesn't necessarily mean the opposite. There could be several reasons for people not using togekiss - 1) it's hard to breed so lack of access 2) some people prefer to win in a skillful manner 3) some are ignorant of its utility. Other stuff like Wobbuffet is banworthy no doubt, but because people don't know how to utilize it, it has a low usage. Otherwise how do you explain something that was once Uber now being dropped down with the only difference between the two periods being the addition of Team Preview?

 

18 hours ago, gbwead said:

Honchrow imo isn't really broken, just very uncompetitive. There is just no wall that can reliably handle that nasty bird. It all comes down to luck. Crit or no crit. I'm against Honchrow returning to NU for that reason.

I agree with you about Honchkrow, but if we can find defensive answers for Togekiss, then surely we can come up with such answers for Honchkrow. 

 

1) Crustle has Shell Armor

252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Crustle: 67-81 (37.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Crustle Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 134-162 (76.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

2) Chople Berry Steelix

252+ Atk Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Steelix on a critical hit: 48-57 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 148-175 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Given Honchkrow's frail defenses, it has lesser switch-in opportunities compared to Togekiss. My point is that the reasoning you're using for preventing Honchkrow from moving down to NU is very similar to that for Togekiss in terms of things coming down to luck because the right Togekiss can potentially sweep your team, it really does all come down to luck. 

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@NikhilR I agree that Crustle, Omastar and Steelix were all the best counters to Honchrow back then. Unfortunetly, none of those have reliable recovery and some lacked utility. Togekiss has better answers in OU compared to Honchrow and gets outsped by a significant portion of the tier. Honchrow can hax anything that doesn't have shell armor or battle armor. That's why the imo Honchrow in NU is much worse than Togekiss in OU and why one deserves to stay ban.

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Voting:

Yes to Zoroark dropping: Zoroark has been an underwhelming pokemon in OU, one imagines oneself pulling off these incredibly complex ruses only for a hazard or ability to reveal the truth. It's hard to breed and requires a tailor made moveset to support a team and even then it relies on your opponent falling for it, rather meh choice.

Yes to Mamoswine dropping: Mamo is strong and chances are it won't stay in UU for long with Garchomp on the horizon, but I feel like the UU metagame will be able to handle it. it can seldom switch into a lot common threats and can always be countered by the fairly common Bronzong. Of all the BLs, this is the only one we banned before we even saw its effect on the meta, I think it's worth giving it a shot.

No to Porygon-Z dropping: People have brought up some good points about it, I do believe there's a certain bias towards wanting more offense in the tier from these players and while I understand them, I don't think the tier is ready yet for it. At least I'd rather not drop it at the same time as Mamoswine who will surely make a big impact in the tier. I'll reconsider once the meta settles down with Mamoswine (if it drops).

No to Haxorus dropping
No to Honchkrow dropping

Yes to Wobb dropping: It's a hit or miss Pokemon that everyone has been overhyping in the other two tiers yet they never seem to deliver in showing how strong it is. I do believe NU is a different case with so many powerful set up sweepers suddenly having a catch-all pokemon that can remove the threats that wall them, however without actual proof of this happening I think it's too early to jump the gun and expect it to ruin the meta.

 

I'd also like to propose the idea of buffing Leaf Storm to 140 BP over its current 130 BP. It was originally nerfed alongside its sister moves Draco Meteor and Overheat when Unova was released since we believed it'd be easier for the playerbase to implement weaker versions of moves and then buff them later if they prove underwhelming instead of pulling the rug and nerfing them after investments into comps were made. Unlike these other two moves Leaf Storm has a much weaker offensive typing and its strongest users aren't in a good place in the metagame right now.

This decision could bite us back in the very far future when its best abuser in recorded history, Contrary Serperior, gets implemented. Personally I doubt it'd change much as Serperior's base special attack is pretty weak, meaning a 10 BP increase on its first or second Leaf Storm shouldn't be that devastating and it has a lackluster movepool which proves to be its undoing, not to mention we'd have far more options to deal with it when it finally gets implemented.

Another thing I overlooked was the unimplemented Rotom-Mow, the one I'd expect to be the most used in NU, if not the least used in UU. It already looks naturally strong in NU, with its specs set deleting anything not named Roselia on a misprediction, but I think the end result of this ending up in UU or BL2 (if it does) won't be due to a 10 BP increase in the move.

Anyways I'd like to know if this would get the approval of the playerbase and the rest of the Tier Council.

Edited by suigin
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Is there anyone who'd be able to do some calcs for Haxorus in UU against any possible checks/counters? Because I can't see anything that'd survive a single dance from a Haxorus, or even a stab move with no boosts other than a life orb. I'll do some calcs if no one has by the time I'm free but I genuinely can't think of any good counters off the top of my head. 

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7 minutes ago, Dibz said:

Is there anyone who'd be able to do some calcs for Haxorus in UU against any possible checks/counters? Because I can't see anything that'd survive a single dance from a Haxorus, or even a stab move with no boosts other than a life orb. I'll do some calcs if no one has by the time I'm free but I genuinely can't think of any good counters off the top of my head. 

I posted a long list of calcs in the original Haxorus thread which is now gone, I don't feel like doing the same thing again but the UU meta did not change to a degree to warrant Haxorus' drop. This thing has 0 switch ins. UU meta is broken and cancerous as fuck already and I don't see it becoming nay better in the upcoming future, Haxorus' drop will only make things even worse.

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10 hours ago, gbwead said:

Any replays where Baton Pass is broken in LC?

I can only speak to what I've seen/ played against in psl and the world cup, as for specific tournament replays im sure they exist but i cant point them out specifically.

 

Baton pass in general is unhealthy, it takes little skill to set up a chain and effortlessly sweep your opponent. Hence why its banned in OU, UU and NU. Little cup is no different, if anything its worse.

 

FaZers, barely any top tier pokemon can phaze let alone phaze reliably. Your best bet is Vullaby with whirlwind. Setting aside having to drop a move on a pokemon already suffering from 4mss, its the nature of little cup that really affects how overpowered baton pass is when it comes up against its strongest opposition in Vullaby. Pokemon are relatively stronger in little cup, defense is more about pokemon typing than pure bulk. what it means is a blanket phazer doesn't exist, the damage you take on the turn you whirlwind out your opponent will likely mean you are unable to phaze again. This is all obviously in the ideal scenario you know your opponent is going to baton pass, what attacking moves they have, what they are going to pass, no rocks on your side of the field, not having taken any chip damage and i guess them not having taunt. You need a core of multiple phazers to be able to stop baton pass reliably, which is obviously excessive. 

 

Mienfoo is ridiculous. It has a wide variety of sets before you even begin to look at baton passing options. It can bulk up, calm mind, sword dance, agility, sub and taunt, while also still being able to punish you with hjk/drain punch and payback coverage. It can set up a sword dance as you go to your phazer and fire off an attack with little fear. If you tank the attack and phaze it out, its rendered you unable to phaze again when it comes back. Or you tank the hit and try to chip it, but it can simply switch, regen, and try again later. Venonat is also gross if you aren't using vullaby to phaze because of sleep.

 

 

I get that the burden of proof lies with people arguing to ban baton pass, but when its banned in OU, UU and NU, i'm not really sure how you can justify keeping it.

 

 

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12 hours ago, suigin said:

since we believed it'd be easier for the playerbase to implement weaker versions of moves and then buff them later if they prove underwhelming

This logic has always irked me. If you don’t test the stronger versions of moves or certain abilities or w/e, then you won’t know if they’re broken or not. The way you guys have done this is completely backwards.

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6 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

I can only speak to what I've seen/ played against in psl and the world cup, as for specific tournament replays im sure they exist but i cant point them out specifically.

 

Baton pass in general is unhealthy, it takes little skill to set up a chain and effortlessly sweep your opponent. Hence why its banned in OU, UU and NU. Little cup is no different, if anything its worse.

 

FaZers, barely any top tier pokemon can phaze let alone phaze reliably. Your best bet is Vullaby with whirlwind. Setting aside having to drop a move on a pokemon already suffering from 4mss, its the nature of little cup that really affects how overpowered baton pass is when it comes up against its strongest opposition in Vullaby. Pokemon are relatively stronger in little cup, defense is more about pokemon typing than pure bulk. what it means is a blanket phazer doesn't exist, the damage you take on the turn you whirlwind out your opponent will likely mean you are unable to phaze again. This is all obviously in the ideal scenario you know your opponent is going to baton pass, what attacking moves they have, what they are going to pass, no rocks on your side of the field, not having taken any chip damage and i guess them not having taunt. You need a core of multiple phazers to be able to stop baton pass reliably, which is obviously excessive. 

 

Mienfoo is ridiculous. It has a wide variety of sets before you even begin to look at baton passing options. It can bulk up, calm mind, sword dance, agility, sub and taunt, while also still being able to punish you with hjk/drain punch and payback coverage. It can set up a sword dance as you go to your phazer and fire off an attack with little fear. If you tank the attack and phaze it out, its rendered you unable to phaze again when it comes back. Or you tank the hit and try to chip it, but it can simply switch, regen, and try again later. Venonat is also gross if you aren't using vullaby to phaze because of sleep.

 

 

I get that the burden of proof lies with people arguing to ban baton pass, but when its banned in OU, UU and NU, i'm not really sure how you can justify keeping it.

 

 

Before I wanna talk about BP, I just wanna mention something. Last PSL you used the same team in different weeks, and before facing me, I've used BP in my previous match. Yet you still brought the same team, which then obviously didn't work, what were you expecting ?

I've lost this week's match because i made the mistake of using the same team and tactic I've used last week, and got punished for it as my opponent only needed to use Taunt on his Misdreavus, which then resulted in an immediate deserved win from his side, so yeah, poor preparation from both our sides.

 

Now Baton pass imo isn't banworthy for the sole reason that it doesn't sweep without effort, any kind of set has its requirements and it is a double edged sword. 

The most common sets are a combination of Mienfoo ( for Bulk up or Calm mind ), Venonat ( for speed & sleep ), and a finisher: stuff like Misdreavus, Timbur, Clamperl, etc.

Koffing can easily deal with this kind of setup as it doesn't get punished to switch on Mienfoo, and easily Clear smog or Haze, Foongus can clear smog as well and is immune to Sleep powder. Hippopotas is bulky enough to switch on Mienfoo or Venonat and Whirlwind ( if a poke is already asleep ), Vullaby can easily switch on both mienfoo and Venonat and use Whirlwind, Prankster Cottonee is a thing too, Zubat can use both WW and Haze and is a good check for mienfoo and timbur in general, BB, Uturn, Haze, Roost is a nice set that can easily switch on mienfoo, and Venonat.

 

Setting up while Misdreavus is roaming freely, or while Vullaby is on the field isn't an easy task, and it takes actual skill to perform, I've seen you say recently on discord that " Nothing stops Bidoof from sweeping after it takes an SD from Mienfoo ", but tbh it shows that you're still a bit uninformed about the tier as first, Bidoof's simple doesn't trigger while you pass any stat changes to it via BP, and secondly it doesn't access aqua jet therefore it is slower than Misdreavus, which is at 69% of usage, and other ghosts like gastly, and if Bidoof becomes a thing anyway, Foul play Misdreavus / Gastly will be a thing too, I believe +4 Quick attack doesn't ohko Mienfoo as well so yeah bad exemple tbh.

 

I'm also interested to see some replays which show that BP can sweep with no effort or skill, maybe then I'd consider reconsidering my thoughts, we've seen many attempts of BP in the past PSLs and I can confirm that its probability of success is  always 50/50, if not less ( Senile, Rose, etc )

The last thing I wanna mention is that BP IMO promotes creativity and skill and can sometimes give u a change from the usual balanced teams style of play, that we're all running from when we play that tier, so yeah my 2 Nickels.

 

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9 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I posted a long list of calcs in the original Haxorus thread which is now gone, I don't feel like doing the same thing again but the UU meta did not change to a degree to warrant Haxorus' drop. This thing has 0 switch ins. UU meta is broken and cancerous as fuck already and I don't see it becoming nay better in the upcoming future, Haxorus' drop will only make things even worse.

I did some calcs this morning I'll post when I'm home but essentially, there are no good switch-ins to deal with haxorus and this would end up forcing every team to carry a haxorus and at least 3 haxorus counters. I've got calcs to support that claim too but pls keep it in OU where it belongs. It 2HKO's most of the UU meta and the two Pokemon it doesn't 2HKO can't do anything to it except use toxic on it and hope the rest of the team survives enough turns for it to die. Unless a haxorus vs haxorus speed tie. Cancerous is right

 

Edited by Dibz
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  • Munya unfeatured this topic

Just for the sake of having my votes be public, I'll post my votes/thoughts here.

 

OU -> UU drops are fine. Porygon2 is a good tool for balance teams as it is an effective mixed wall and is also able to trap/revenge kill dugtrio so that dugtrio is limited to one kill per game, which is useful if you're running a team that has multiple pokemon that can be trapped by dugtrio (sd heracross/specs typhlosion/magneton etc). Umbreon probably helps out stall teams more than it does offense, but I feel it's largely outclassed by mandibuzz outside of its cleric abilities. Zoroark is a meme, probably not worth running in the current meta.

 

As for the BL -> UU drop discussion goes, there is a general consensus for porygon-z that it is too strong, being able to spam tri attack pretty freely, while also being able to boost its speed or special attack easily, makes it much too powerful for UU.

 

Mamoswine and Haxorus are a little different. I wanted an all or nothing vote for them, meaning I would either want both to drop, or for neither to drop. I think with mamoswine in the tier, we have enough answers to deal with haxorus then. In terms of defensive play, mandibuzz is a near perfect answer to haxorus, being able to live a +2 LO dragon claw from haxorus and ohko back with foul play. Forretress has an acceptable matchup vs haxorus as well, being able to live any +2 attack from haxorus and being able to either do some damage with gyro ball or ohko with counter. Vaporeon works too to an extent, as it lives +2 attacks from haxorus and can do 70-85% with ice beam, which is enough to ko provided that haxorus did not come in for absolutely free+set up for free. Haxorus must also choose between dragon dance or swords dance (or run both with limited attacking options). Running swords dance may be more appealing for breaking stall teams, but it also means that haxorus loses to crobat in a 1v1. Dragon dance is better vs some stuff, but leaves it lacking the power of SD, meaning it will always lose to forretress/some other defensive threats.

 

Now as for offensive counterplay vs haxorus, it is a different situation. An offensive team probably won't be running a max defense impish mandibuzz, so that is off the table as a potential counter, but things don't look too bad for offensive teams either. Offensive teams have more offense and thus haxorus has less potential to set up at all. Offensive teams will also have more priority available to them, including mamoswine ice shard, weavile ice shard, bisharp sucker punch, etc, so even if haxorus is able to set up a DD, there is still easy counterplay to haxorus that doesn't require ridiculous considerations in teambuilding.

 

I think if mamoswine wasn't in the tier, then haxorus requires a bit too specific of pokemon to be reliably answered on offensive teams, as there would only be one ice shard user available for super effective priority. Obviously as I'm writing this post, mamoswine has already been dropped to UU, so I would like to see Haxorus drop as well, but it seems others have a different mindset than myself. 

 

Honch still has no place in NU, with an immensely strong stab priority and strong coverage moves.

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Just now, BurntZebra said:

Just for the sake of having my votes be public, I'll post my votes/thoughts here.

 

OU -> UU drops are fine. Porygon2 is a good tool for balance teams as it is an effective mixed wall and is also able to trap/revenge kill dugtrio so that dugtrio is limited to one kill per game, which is useful if you're running a team that has multiple pokemon that can be trapped by dugtrio (sd heracross/specs typhlosion/magneton etc). Umbreon probably helps out stall teams more than it does offense, but I feel it's largely outclassed by mandibuzz outside of its cleric abilities. Zoroark is a meme, probably not worth running in the current meta.

 

As for the BL -> UU drop discussion goes, there is a general consensus for porygon-z that it is too strong, being able to spam tri attack pretty freely, while also being able to boost its speed or special attack easily, makes it much too powerful for UU.

 

Mamoswine and Haxorus are a little different. I wanted an all or nothing vote for them, meaning I would either want both to drop, or for neither to drop. I think with mamoswine in the tier, we have enough answers to deal with haxorus then. In terms of defensive play, mandibuzz is a near perfect answer to haxorus, being able to live a +2 LO dragon claw from haxorus and ohko back with foul play. Forretress has an acceptable matchup vs haxorus as well, being able to live any +2 attack from haxorus and being able to either do some damage with gyro ball or ohko with counter. Vaporeon works too to an extent, as it lives +2 attacks from haxorus and can do 70-85% with ice beam, which is enough to ko provided that haxorus did not come in for absolutely free+set up for free. Haxorus must also choose between dragon dance or swords dance (or run both with limited attacking options). Running swords dance may be more appealing for breaking stall teams, but it also means that haxorus loses to crobat in a 1v1. Dragon dance is better vs some stuff, but leaves it lacking the power of SD, meaning it will always lose to forretress/some other defensive threats.

 

Now as for offensive counterplay vs haxorus, it is a different situation. An offensive team probably won't be running a max defense impish mandibuzz, so that is off the table as a potential counter, but things don't look too bad for offensive teams either. Offensive teams have more offense and thus haxorus has less potential to set up at all. Offensive teams will also have more priority available to them, including mamoswine ice shard, weavile ice shard, bisharp sucker punch, etc, so even if haxorus is able to set up a DD, there is still easy counterplay to haxorus that doesn't require ridiculous considerations in teambuilding.

 

I think if mamoswine wasn't in the tier, then haxorus requires a bit too specific of pokemon to be reliably answered on offensive teams, as there would only be one ice shard user available for super effective priority. Obviously as I'm writing this post, mamoswine has already been dropped to UU, so I would like to see Haxorus drop as well, but it seems others have a different mindset than myself. 

 

Honch still has no place in NU, with an immensely strong stab priority and strong coverage moves.

And Wobbuffet???

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Wobbuffet is something that cannot be easily predicted in terms of what impact it will have on the NU meta. If you asked me when it dropped to UU, what it would be like in UU, I would have guessed it would have 25% usage and find itself on all archetypes of teams, for its ability to trap offensive pokemon and defensive pokemon, but the UU players don't run wobbuffet for whatever reason they have, so now NU is left to deal with it. Toxic users in NU might become more common so that wobb can't trap them very easily, while scarf pokemon that wobbuffet can easily switch into will probably decrease in usage. If wobbuffet has a significantly negative impact on the NU meta with a large enough usage, then I would consider banning it, but as of now, it is impossible to tell what the true impact it will have on the meta. 

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Can we get rid of Mamoswine like, right away? I can't stress enough how stupidly broken this pokemon is in current UU. In the entire tier, it has literally only 2 CHECKS. Bronzong needs to carry Shed Hull, limiting it's switching-in potential- if it gets trapped by Magnet Rise Magneton, it's dead and you're going to have a very hard time afterwards. If you don't know what I'm talking about, check YungMulah vs CrissCy in the latest UU CC (round 4). Slowbro needs to be 100% healthy, without hazards, cannot be statused either. Vaporeon can't even really wall it with protect because it gets 2shoted with EQ. I'm too tired to post calcs, but this thing is just so stupid that you should be guys seriously ashamed after bringing it down. Additionally, Mamoswine surprisingly has a lot of switch ins due to UU's stally playstyle. Even more, it has a very decent 80 base speed and a priority move on top of it. It's centralizing, offensive uber and unhealthy at once.

 

Let it rot in BL, UU was unenjoyable already and you guys are only making it worse, bringing broken mons to check more broken mons.

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.
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