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July-Movement Discussion Thread


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OU:

Spoiler

Pokemon Percentage
Scizor 31.55%
Conkeldurr 23.71%
Ferrothorn 22.67%
Hydreigon 22.08%
Gengar 20.26%
Salamence 17.47%
Volcarona 17.18%
Tyranitar 16.16%
Jolteon 15.98%
Milotic 15.18%
Magnezone 15.10%
Gliscor 14.20%
Blissey 14.19%
Excadrill 14.18%
Pelipper 14.10%
Tentacruel 13.82%
Cofagrigus 13.48%
Togekiss 13.29%
Gyarados 13.03%
Swampert 12.66%
Kingdra 12.53%
Skarmory 12.46%
Mienshao 11.51%
Dragonite 11.51%
Darmanitan 10.15%
Chansey 10.09%
Chandelure 9.21%
Reuniclus 8.99%
Breloom 8.70%
Cloyster 7.93%
Hippowdon 6.74%
Kabutops 6.73%
Starmie 6.41%
Metagross 5.84%
Arcanine 5.53%
Lucario 5.37%
Aerodactyl 4.13%
Porygon2 4.07%
Mandibuzz 3.57%
Umbreon 3.43%
Zoroark 3.37%
Mamoswine 3.35%
Torkoal 3.20%
Lanturn 2.69%
Crobat 2.47%
Haxorus 2.46%
Jellicent 2.39%
Snorlax 2.32%
Scrafty 2.14%
Whimsicott 2.07%
Electrode 2.07%
Flygon 1.92%
Mantine 1.87%
Venusaur 1.82%
Dugtrio 1.70%
Weavile 1.68%
Alakazam 1.53%
Bronzong 1.51%
Charizard 1.49%
Forretress 1.49%
Azumarill 1.46%
Donphan 1.41%
Heracross 1.39%
Ludicolo 1.35%
Krookodile 1.33%
Yanmega 1.27%
Slowbro 1.26%
Electivire 1.22%
Ambipom 1.15%
Vaporeon 1.14%
Dusclops 1.11%
Medicham 1.10%
Gallade 1.07%
Weezing 1.07%
Dusknoir 1.01%
Sigilyph 1.00%

UU:

Spoiler

Pokemon Percentage
Crobat 34.98%
Snorlax 25.40%
Mandibuzz 22.86%
Lanturn 20.39%
Weavile 19.25%
Medicham 17.95%
Heracross 17.01%
Forretress 16.95%
Gligar 16.71%
Yanmega 16.41%
Jellicent 15.46%
Vaporeon 14.87%
Scrafty 13.48%
Venomoth 13.10%
Typhlosion 12.95%
Rhyperior 12.90%
Bronzong 12.69%
Eelektross 12.66%
Krookodile 12.59%
Flygon 11.27%
Gigalith 11.16%
Donphan 10.31%
Dusclops 10.11%
Absol 9.96%
Magneton 9.29%
Dugtrio 9.27%
Galvantula 8.67%
Azumarill 8.54%
Alakazam 8.34%
Venusaur 7.75%
Machamp 7.50%
Sigilyph 7.11%
Torkoal 6.48%
Bisharp 6.45%
Mantine 6.01%
Manectric 4.89%
Roserade 4.87%
Electrode 4.71%
Wobbuffet 4.25%
Slowbro 4.00%
Linoone 3.93%
Steelix 3.73%
Honchkrow 2.98%
Poliwrath 2.97%
Dusknoir 2.79%
Blaziken 2.78%
Aerodactyl 2.71%
Gallade 2.64%
Druddigon 2.18%
Gardevoir 2.16%
Exeggutor 2.16%
Mismagius 2.13%
Nidoqueen 2.09%
Whimsicott 2.01%
Electivire 2.00%
Omastar 1.96%
Ambipom 1.80%
Victreebel 1.74%
Houndoom 1.70%
Blastoise 1.68%
Archeops 1.67%
Espeon 1.66%
Weezing 1.65%
Charizard 1.56%
Altaria 1.55%
Feraligatr 1.52%
Swellow 1.48%
Lilligant 1.47%
Clefable 1.27%
Ursaring 1.21%
Golurk 1.17%
Samurott 1.17%
Froslass 1.11%
Lapras 1.06%
Pikachu 1.05%
Hariyama 1.04%
Quagsire 1.04%
Vanilluxe 1.03%
Ludicolo 1.00%
Hitmontop 1.00%

NU:

Spoiler

Pokemon Percentage
Golbat 27.98%
Steelix 27.80%
Gallade 19.88%
Blastoise 18.42%
Manectric 18.42%
Charizard 14.69%
Mismagius 14.47%
Slowking 13.17%
Clefable 12.88%
Gardevoir 12.84%
Lilligant 12.16%
Slowbro 11.83%
Primeape 11.59%
Espeon 10.67%
Braviary 9.67%
Durant 9.17%
Kangaskhan 8.09%
Swellow 7.85%
Linoone 7.74%
Druddigon 7.73%
Omastar 7.32%
Ambipom 7.28%
Houndoom 7.22%
Nidoqueen 7.15%
Sceptile 6.84%
Miltank 6.61%
Bibarel 6.44%
Rhydon 6.40%
Aerodactyl 6.27%
Electrode 6.20%
Whimsicott 6.14%
Altaria 6.07%
Vanilluxe 5.99%
Dusknoir 5.89%
Weezing 5.70%
Ludicolo 5.45%
Feraligatr 5.24%
Sableye 5.20%
Ursaring 5.00%
Electivire 4.97%
Musharna 4.91%
Throh 4.88%
Probopass 4.85%
Roselia 4.85%
Blaziken 4.68%
Golurk 4.64%
Hitmontop 4.44%
Cryogonal 4.29%
Hariyama 4.27%
Ferroseed 4.25%
Aggron 3.98%
Stunfisk 3.94%
Scyther 3.77%
Claydol 3.51%
Quagsire 3.45%
Escavalier 3.42%
Audino 3.41%
Golem 3.39%
Hitmonchan 3.38%
Froslass 3.37%
Sawk 3.16%
Magmortar 3.14%
Archeops 3.11%
Tauros 3.08%
Poliwrath 2.95%
Lapras 2.70%
Crawdaunt 2.67%
Serperior 2.61%
Sandslash 2.54%
Munchlax 2.50%
Samurott 2.39%
Nidoking 2.28%
Ninetales 2.26%
Raichu 2.25%
Pikachu 2.24%
Cradily 2.07%
Lickilicky 2.05%
Tangrowth 1.99%
Smeargle 1.93%
Accelgor 1.91%
Klinklang 1.88%
Flareon 1.84%
Seismitoad 1.81%
Muk 1.80%
Pinsir 1.68%
Carracosta 1.62%
Alomomola 1.61%
Dodrio 1.55%
Exeggutor 1.51%
Haunter 1.47%
Hitmonlee 1.47%
Ampharos 1.45%
Emboar 1.41%
Slaking 1.40%
Amoonguss 1.32%
Raticate 1.28%
Victreebel 1.27%
Gurdurr 1.25%
Togetic 1.17%
Masquerain 1.15%
Marowak 1.09%
Crustle 1.06%
Grumpig 1.01%

Doubles:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  2652 442
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Hitmontop 125 28.28%
Salamence 117 26.47%
Gengar 88 19.91%
Tyranitar 87 19.68%
Metagross 77 17.42%
Togekiss 75 16.97%
Hydreigon 71 16.06%
Volcarona 70 15.84%
Torkoal 69 15.61%
Conkeldurr 68 15.38%
Gyarados 65 14.71%
Pelipper 60 13.57%
Kingdra 59 13.35%
Ferrothorn 58 13.12%
Arcanine 57 12.90%
Amoonguss 56 12.67%
Reuniclus 55 12.44%
Excadrill 50 11.31%
Blastoise 48 10.86%
Jolteon 44 9.95%
Mienshao 43 9.73%
Milotic 41 9.28%
Scizor 41 9.28%
Porygon2 36 8.14%
Typhlosion 33 7.47%
Swampert 32 7.24%
Hariyama 31 7.01%
Whimsicott 30 6.79%
Manectric 27 6.11%
Breloom 25 5.66%
Dusclops 25 5.66%
Cofagrigus 24 5.43%
Ludicolo 24 5.43%
Dragonite 23 5.20%
Eelektross 23 5.20%
Snorlax 23 5.20%
Bisharp 21 4.75%
Golduck 19 4.30%
Kabutops 19 4.30%
Lilligant 19 4.30%
Chandelure 18 4.07%
Magnezone 17 3.85%
Rhyperior 17 3.85%
Darmanitan 16 3.62%
Marowak 16 3.62%
Gliscor 15 3.39%
Slowking 15 3.39%
Ambipom 14 3.17%
Crobat 14 3.17%
Vanilluxe 14 3.17%
Yanmega 14 3.17%
Blissey 13 2.94%
Mandibuzz 13 2.94%
Smeargle 13 2.94%
Bronzong 12 2.71%
Gigalith 12 2.71%
Serperior 12 2.71%
Venusaur 12 2.71%
Chansey 11 2.49%
Hippowdon 11 2.49%
Charizard 10 2.26%
Escavalier 10 2.26%
Porygon-Z 10 2.26%
Slowbro 10 2.26%
Alakazam 9 2.04%
Electrode 9 2.04%
Skarmory 9 2.04%
Weavile 9 2.04%
Aggron 8 1.81%
Azumarill 8 1.81%
Exeggutor 8 1.81%
Gallade 8 1.81%
Jellicent 8 1.81%
Machamp 8 1.81%
Medicham 8 1.81%
Tentacruel 8 1.81%
Clefable 7 1.58%
Dusknoir 7 1.58%
Heracross 7 1.58%
Sawsbuck 7 1.58%
Sigilyph 7 1.58%
Zoroark 7 1.58%
Aerodactyl 6 1.36%
Leavanny 6 1.36%
Mamoswine 6 1.36%
Raichu 6 1.36%
Scrafty 6 1.36%
Starmie 6 1.36%
Beheeyem 5 1.13%
Cloyster 5 1.13%
Flygon 5 1.13%
Haxorus 5 1.13%
Jynx 5 1.13%
Shiftry 5 1.13%
Vaporeon 5 1.13%

LC:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  2388 398
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Misdreavus 252 63.32%
Mienfoo 238 59.80%
Ferroseed 163 40.95%
Vullaby 134 33.67%
Timburr 114 28.64%
Chinchou 109 27.39%
Porygon 107 26.88%
Clamperl 81 20.35%
Onix 76 19.10%
Diglett 60 15.08%
Bronzor 54 13.57%
Grimer 51 12.81%
Munchlax 48 12.06%
Staryu 41 10.30%
Meowth 37 9.30%
Elekid 37 9.30%
Gastly 37 9.30%
Abra 36 9.05%
Magnemite 34 8.54%
Tentacool 30 7.54%
Pawniard 29 7.29%
Dwebble 29 7.29%
Taillow 28 7.04%
Ponyta 27 6.78%
Larvesta 25 6.28%
Rufflet 25 6.28%
Shellder 23 5.78%
Axew 22 5.53%
Frillish 21 5.28%
Hippopotas 18 4.52%
Doduo 16 4.02%
Koffing 16 4.02%
Cottonee 15 3.77%
Venonat 15 3.77%
Lickitung 14 3.52%
Sandshrew 14 3.52%
Voltorb 14 3.52%
Yamask 13 3.27%
Trapinch 12 3.02%
Drilbur 12 3.02%
Anorith 11 2.76%
Archen 11 2.76%
Tirtouga 11 2.76%
Wailmer 11 2.76%
Omanyte 10 2.51%
Lileep 9 2.26%
Sandile 8 2.01%
Budew 7 1.76%
Electrike 7 1.76%
Growlithe 7 1.76%
Magby 7 1.76%
Remoraid 6 1.51%
Shroomish 6 1.51%
Slowpoke 6 1.51%
Wynaut 5 1.26%
Carvanha 5 1.26%
Cubone 5 1.26%
Cyndaquil 4 1.01%
Darumaka 4 1.01%
Dratini 4 1.01%
Drifloon 4 1.01%
Duskull 4 1.01%
Ekans 4 1.01%
Golett 4 1.01%
Munna 4 1.01%
Numel 4 1.01%
Phanpy 4 1.01%
Swablu 4 1.01%
Trubbish 4 1.01%

 

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Normal discussion thread rules apply.

 

This is the final month in a cycle as such we will be using 4.36 up & down.

To UU from OU:
Umbreon, Porygon2,  Zoroark

 

Possible to UU from BL

Porygon-Z, Mamoswine, Haxorus


To UU from NU:
Manectric, Electrode

 

Possible to NU from BL2:

Honchkrow

 

To NU from UU: 
Wobbuffet

 

Feel free to discuss.

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  • Munya unlocked this topic
11 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

can you ban baton pass in lc, its literally brainless even more so in lc than standard tiers

This. I think that BP in LC is honestly the most pressing issue of any tier at the moment.

 

Regarding NU, I'm not entirely convinced that Wobbuffet wouldn’t be broken. I will evaluate it properly another time because I'm tired right now but I see it trapping and beating most walls and a fair few sweepers without much consequence.

 

Please keep Honchkrow away from NU - it was too much of a handful even in the days of fully defensive Golbat which was one of its better defensive checks. Granted Stunfisk would work nicely as a counter, but it lacks recovery and is entirely reliant on Static activating upon contact to punish Honchkrow. Not only is Honchkrow difficult to switch into, but its 50% crit rate STAB Sucker Punch also makes it very difficult to deal with offensively. Durant, Lilligant and Primeape are reasonable offensive checks, however Lilligant is dependent on Sleep Powder not missing and so is shaky at best. 

 

Supporting calcs:

Spoiler

NB: Gen 7 calcs for 1.5x crit boost:

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix on a critical hit: 96-114 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Golbat on a critical hit: 133-157 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat on a critical hit: 99-117 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon on a critical hit: 126-150 (59.4 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise on a critical hit: 118-141 (63.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed on a critical hit: 112-134 (74.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric on a critical hit: 144-171 (99.3 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape on a critical hit: 71-84 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary on a critical hit: 121-144 (69.1 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan on a critical hit: 115-136 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant on a critical hit: 121-144 (83.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

Edited by Zymogen
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My opinions:

Honchrow: @Zymogen has summed up pretty nicely, we kinda have nothing for this beast in NU, and it can even get a really strong priority

Haxorus: No as well. UU lacks stuff to stop it. Dragon stab is way too strong out of OU, even more when bronzong dies with eq.

Porygon-z: A good porygon-z can destroy UU as well, and it would be way too centralizing. 

Mamoswine: Probably the only one of the three that could get a test.

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12 hours ago, Munya said:

Possible to UU from BL

Porygon-Z, Mamoswine, Haxorus

Just let these free, everybody complains uu is the worst tier. Games take forever wall meta blah balh, well this is why bc you ban any offensive threats. 

 

At least test mamo and pz, they are both slow/frail enough to be easily checked. 

Edited by RLotus
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3 hours ago, RLotus said:

Just let these free, everybody complains uu is the worst tier. Games take forever wall meta blah balh, well this is why bc you ban any offensive threats. 

 

At least test mamo and pz, they are both slow/frail enough to be easily checked. 

+1 for poryZ and and mamo. just look at our UU meta now, cant wait for 60 min battes with umbreons and pory2 in the tier.

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People dont realize UU is stally af cuz full stall is the only way currently to have an answer for every highly offensive pressure in the tier. (Hera, typhlo, galv, medicham, weavile, absol, magneton, machamp, azumarill ...) Tier is not stally cuz there arent offensive options, its stally cuz there are way too many offensive options and 3 or 4 walls arent enough to deal with them all. Letting stallbreakers roam free in UU wont change a damn thing. It will only lead to 5 wall teams + dugtrio made specifically to trap and kill said wallbreaking mon.

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1 hour ago, pachima said:

People dont realize UU is stally af cuz full stall is the only way currently to have an answer for every highly offensive pressure in the tier. (Hera, typhlo, galv, medicham, weavile, absol, magneton, machamp, azumarill ...) Tier is not stally cuz there arent offensive options, its stally cuz there are way too many offensive options and 3 or 4 walls arent enough to deal with them all. Letting stallbreakers roam free in UU wont change a damn thing. It will only lead to 5 wall teams + dugtrio made specifically to trap and kill said wallbreaking mon.

noone is saying these mons will change "the damn thing", the question here is whether it deserves a test.

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Unlike other BL and BL2 mons, Mamoswine is the only one that has never been tested. I feel it got some decent answers in UU (especially Bronzong) and, even though it has perhaps overwhelming offensive potential, it still has serious defensive flaws and will most likely struggle to come in play.

 

I'm really on the fence when it comes to Porygon-Z, it was tested in the past. The metagame in UU was quite different back then, we have more options when it comes to special defense walls and Gigalith  has proven to be viable in UU against more than just Porygon-Z. However, Porygon-Z speed tier, raw power, set up options and general coverage is very concerning. Gigalith is cool. Special defense Bronzong was okayish at best against Porygon-Z. The new eviolite mons (Dusclops/P2) will most likely struggle against Dark Pulse/Tri Attack spam from Porygon-Z and can't really prevent P-Z from setting up on them. Umbreon, Jellicent, Mantine and Cryogonal are not bulky enough. Probopass looks pretty great against Porygon-Z, but with only Tri Attack/Dark Pulse/Thunderbolt Porygon-Z can pretty much 2HKO nearly any wall, so adding HP Fighting isn't a problem. Considering Electrode is becoming more and more used in UU, it's safe to say wall strategies are not uncommon and those will probably be extremely effective at patching Porygon-Z weak defenses.

 

Haxorus was already disgustingly broken without Mold Breaker. I believe firmly it will still be broken now.

 

Honchrow imo isn't really broken, just very uncompetitive. There is just no wall that can reliably handle that nasty bird. It all comes down to luck. Crit or no crit. I'm against Honchrow returning to NU for that reason.

Mamoswine BL --> UU: YES
Porygon-Z BL --> UU: NO
Haxorus BL --> UU: NO
Honchrow BL2 --> NU: NO

Edited by gbwead
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13 hours ago, gbwead said:

I'm really on the fence when it comes to Porygon-Z,

Spoiler
252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 92-109 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 108-128 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It seems to me that pz is manageable on the defensive side. Some of this gets dicey when you factor in hazards and tri attack hax, but it is manageable. But, here is the real point I was trying to make:

 

Spoiler
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 212-251 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 125-148 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 168-198 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 103-121 (33.1 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 103-121 (33.1 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 160-189 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of this priority can be used to check pz, on top of many faster pokemon and scarfers. Of which, both dugtrio and krookodile have the ability to trap it.
 
Spoiler
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 271-321 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
 
252 Atk Krookodile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 82-97 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
The point I'm trying to make is that there seems to be a heavy bias in the tier discussions about how a pokemon can be checked defensively. PZ is frail and not THAT fast that it will dominate the tier. People can adjust offensively, as they have in ou. 
13 hours ago, gbwead said:

Considering Electrode is becoming more and more used in UU, it's safe to say wall strategies are not uncommon and those will probably be extremely effective at patching Porygon-Z weak defenses.

I feel this isn't a good argument to dismiss the weaknesses of a frail pokemon. For one, screens require some turns of setup and thus gives the opportunity for positioning or somehow dealing with the screens. Also, we shouldn't be calling pz broken for a niche strategy that it could theoretically be broken in, instead of evaluating pz on it's own merits. 

 
Edited by RLotus
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