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Hidden Abilities/Dungeon Suggestion


greenspade

Question

I've been playing since 2012 so hopefully my opinion is seen as valid since I have seen the evolution of this game since near the start.

I tried talking about this last year, only to get flamed by the devs and supported by the player base, so I'm going to try this again in more of a "clear point" form to get to the "core issue" of why this is a bad idea, instead of just saying its a bad idea.

So I quit playing (and donating monthly) for the last year cuz I was told by your staff that instead of releasing Hidden Abilities you where going to instead force us to re-catch all of our already made pokemon in order to have access to the HA that would ONLY come from this "new special dungeon". In my mind, by not continuing to pay, I was removing my support... And when I mentioned this the vibe I got was that nobody cared that there was a large group of people who where upset about this and willing to stop paying over it.

I wondered if anything had happened in the last year or more so thats what has caused me to log in recently and talk to some of the mods, having the exact same results as I did previously the year or so before.

So to prevent us from going in a circle yet again I'd like to do this in simple point form so people can address the core issues of why this is a issue that upsets so many people.

I'd like to talk about this.

The points given by your staff are this:
1)
"This is a mmorpg"
2)
"we need content"
3)
"Can't give away everything at once"
4)
"We need a reason for people to play the dungeon"
5)
"You are not special, there are tons of people like you" (in response to being upset HA is being held hostage as a dungeon reward cuz you have no content)

Longest conversation and most recent conversation was with "matoka" and I am directly quoting him for the last quote.

Okay so these are the "main reasons" given to me by the mods when I talk to them about why hidden abilities have not been released in the game yet.

Here are my issues with this:

1)
Mmorpg's release a "core game" with no restrictions, then come out with expansions or DLC's for additional content. That is NOT what this game is doing when your releasing "broken" pokemon that are part of the core game. I say they are broken since "by design" you have chosen to not finish coding them to give them the hidden abilities, in alot of cases the pokemon no longer function properly without it, so there is non-working pokemon as part of your "core release".

I would say this is closer to "the sims 4" cuz there is the "core game" that lacked all the features of the orginal game that everybody loved to begin with. Then they released all those features everybody loved as dlc's and everybody hated it cuz it was supposed to be part of the "game itself" so it felt broken and incomplete without it. Thats how this feels, the pokemon feel incomplete and broken, yet they are actually in the game atm in this horrid state, in fact they have been like this for years.... despite actually being in the game, trainers and gym leaders ALREADY HAVE hidden abilities, this is "by design" being kept out of the game, "by design" having half coded incompletely pokemon that don't work due to being broken without their HA.

2)
First off if your releasing a dungeon and your self-admitting that its so bad that the only reason to go there is the HA pokemon, then maybe you should focus on creating content thats actually worth while instead of artificially creating "content" by holding back base parts of the game?

Your not creating content if your fixing a broken part of it. Finishing the coding on a group of pokemon you've refused to finish is not "creating new content" its holding a handful of pokemon hostage under the guise that its part of your "dungeon content". When I hear this, all I can think is that your dungeon must be beyond horrid if you can't find a better reason to lure players there then give them fully coded pokemon that should've been in the game years ago as a normal part of it.

If you have so little faith in your own dungeon "content" that without HA that "nobody would use it" then are you admitting now that its not going to be a fun addition to the game that people are going to want to do? I mean if nobody is going to want to do it if you didn't have HA pokemon there, then isn't that just saying the whole thing is unfun, boring and not worth doing? Maybe you guys should come up with a better reward system then using "finished coding of a pokemon thats already in the game" as "content"

3)
I touched this a bit above in 2 but the main point here is that if your releasing the core game you should either:
~a)
~Hold all HA pokemon back and release them exclusively in the dungeon
Or
~b)
~Finish the coding on the pokemon already released and find a new reward system for this dungeon.

Since you've already failed in doing a) that only leaves us with b). To release a pokemon, in half form, unfinished in its coding and then coming out with a "new version of it" that has its coding finish as "new content" isn't impressing anyone here. This is equal to the sims 3 releasing core game with kids then sims 4 releasing core games with kids dlc, your fan base is going to look at your like wtf are you thinking cuz its a extremely greedy and cheap and lazy way to "create content" out of nothing.

Cuz lets be honest here, it is creating content out of nothing, your refusing to finish coding and then calling the finished coding "new content"

4)
"Can't give away everything at once"
This makes me laugh. Cuz they act like this is all they have up their sleeve, if they give us HA "for free" (despite the fact it should've been in the game already) then they won't have any other content or anything else to release? If this is reality then I'm not sure what to even say cuz this is a sad state of things if this is true.

Why I think this statement is such a joke is simply cuz its already in the game.

Gym leaders use HA, trainers use HA, yet we can't cuz the game hasn't been finished coding to alow us to use them.

If all you have is HA, if HA is "everything at once" then this game is in a much much more sad state of affairs then I thought.

You guys have the entire world open to you, you could do anything, theres hundreds of great ideas out there and the best you can come up with is using something that should be in the game already as a way to lure people to use a feature you self admit they wouldn't use if you didn't have HA there as a lure?

I mean if your going to create content should you not be creating content worth a damn instead of holding key-parts of the game hostage in order to make your dungeon worth something?

I'd feel better about a dungeon that was fun to play or had a interesting reason to do it instead of being forced to do it in order to remake the pokemon I already own simply so I can have access to HA. I mean honestly who wants to remake the pokemon you already have just simply cuz you guys are greedy? I say greedy with no shame cuz the only reason I've been given as to why HA is not in the game is cuz you want to USE it as a way to make your dungeons worth playing cuz they would not be otherwise.

Guess what I'm saying here is that you guys could be doing ~Anything~ but instead you made the choice to hold game-braking parts of the game away from us as a way to "create content" instead of just simply creating great content people would actually want.

5)
Its pretty widely accepted that this is a bad thing, even "matoka" says it wasn't a good thing, trying to play like it was more of a neutral thing "not good or bad". Well we agree on one thing, its for sure not a good thing to release neutered half coded versions of pokemon that are broken and don't work properly, then hold their fully working versions hostage behind a "dungeon content" cuz you can't think of any other way to create content.

Legit you need a ideas man on your team cuz if you can't think of anything else, or see why this isn't a good idea, then you have no legitimate ideas.

I mean just throwing this out there but regional leagues would be pretty awesome cuz theres a large player base who dislikes the fact you keep releasing new pokemon and changing the pvp meta.

Personally I had alot of fun back when it was gen 1-3 so having a kanto league I think would be pretty rad cuz I honestly all I see is a power creep with the newer pokemon replacing older pokemon that would've filled the same role.

Riddle me this: once you release all pokemon what is the difference between this game and all the other pokemon pvp games? Not much aside of the single player, in fact I would say other pokemon pvp games would be BETTER cuz you can just make pokemon by selecting exactly what you want instead of being forced to grind for them or use them without hidden abilities in some half-braked version of themselves.

Really losing the charm of this game fast and I'm not sure if the devs even realize it when the mods don't take that feedback to the devs and when I post here I'm flamed and told thats how it is and how its gona be instead of taking this as legitimate feedback.

To be clear I'm not hating on new content releases, I think that you should want to release new content. I just think that refusing to program in half a pokemon thats already in the game, then releasing the fully coded version in a speical area only is super lazy to call "new content" cuz its not new content, its the same old content but properly coded and finished instead of left in a broken bugged version of itself cuz you think letting us use half coded pokemon is legitimate cuz.... you need content and can't figure out a way to get it any other way? You see how sad this sounds?

Edited by greenspade
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3 hours ago, Raichu4u said:

If you started off with both base breeders, sure. But I mean if I have an already existing 5x31 comp without a hidden ability, you end up paying more in the long run to eventually create your then 5x31 with a hidden ability and correct nature by using your 5x31 without the hidden ability as a mother or father to your build.

The only reason why I bring this up is because I recall a mod or admin on here saying "Don't worry guys, even though we have no plans to introduce a pill for that, you can still use your old builds to breed".

You also should factor the odds of the hidden ability being passed down during breeding. I mean, even in the vanilla games, having a female pokemon with HA doesn’t guarantee an ability pass-down.

It’ll come down to the odds of a pass down; or they might make it 100% pass down for HAs, or an HA equivalent to the everstone.

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4 hours ago, Raichu4u said:

If you started off with both base breeders, sure. But I mean if I have an already existing 5x31 comp without a hidden ability, you end up paying more in the long run to eventually create your then 5x31 with a hidden ability and correct nature by using your 5x31 without the hidden ability as a mother or father to your build.

The only reason why I bring this up is because I recall a mod or admin on here saying "Don't worry guys, even though we have no plans to introduce a pill for that, you can still use your old builds to breed".

 

4 hours ago, Dibz said:

With a low chance of the item dropping, it would probably be cheaper to breed an unnatured HA comp than it would be to buy a pill off the GTL.

 

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On 6/24/2019 at 2:28 AM, greenspade said:

Mmorpg's release a "core game" with no restrictions, then come out with expansions or DLC's for additional content. That is NOT what this game is doing when your releasing "broken" pokemon that are part of the core game. I say they are broken since "by design" you have chosen to not finish coding them to give them the hidden abilities, in alot of cases the pokemon no longer function properly without it, so there is non-working pokemon as part of your "core release".

I would say this is closer to "the sims 4" cuz there is the "core game" that lacked all the features of the orginal game that everybody loved to begin with. Then they released all those features everybody loved as dlc's and everybody hated it cuz it was supposed to be part of the "game itself" so it felt broken and incomplete without it. Thats how this feels, the pokemon feel incomplete and broken, yet they are actually in the game atm in this horrid state, in fact they have been like this for years.... despite actually being in the game, trainers and gym leaders ALREADY HAVE hidden abilities, this is "by design" being kept out of the game, "by design" having half coded incompletely pokemon that don't work due to being broken without their HA.

Say hello to WoW for me. You get the older content when you purchase your subscription, but you have to purchase the new expansions when they come out to get access to that gameplay. As for Sims 4, that's a business decision on the part of EA to make more money. Here, when dungeons are a thing, you will get them for the low low price of free. Bear in mind that the gameplay is still in active development as well and some "core" aspects are still missing, IE: Hidden Abilities. Yes, you are reading that right, HAs are a core aspect and I will address the decision made in one of your other points.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 2:28 AM, greenspade said:

First off if your releasing a dungeon and your self-admitting that its so bad that the only reason to go there is the HA pokemon, then maybe you should focus on creating content thats actually worth while instead of artificially creating "content" by holding back base parts of the game?

Your not creating content if your fixing a broken part of it. Finishing the coding on a group of pokemon you've refused to finish is not "creating new content" its holding a handful of pokemon hostage under the guise that its part of your "dungeon content". When I hear this, all I can think is that your dungeon must be beyond horrid if you can't find a better reason to lure players there then give them fully coded pokemon that should've been in the game years ago as a normal part of it.

If you have so little faith in your own dungeon "content" that without HA that "nobody would use it" then are you admitting now that its not going to be a fun addition to the game that people are going to want to do? I mean if nobody is going to want to do it if you didn't have HA pokemon there, then isn't that just saying the whole thing is unfun, boring and not worth doing? Maybe you guys should come up with a better reward system then using "finished coding of a pokemon thats already in the game" as "content"

The dungeons are, in fact, content as along with them would be certain legendary Pokemon as well. The design reason for doing it this way is because releasing everything as it was in the vanilla games is bad design for an MMO. The vanilla games were designed to allow you to experience everything the game had to offer without a need to interact with other players. As such, there were no issues in giving you everything you wanted. It has nothing to do with having no faith in the dungeons it has more to do with making PokeMMO more like an MMO than an online version of the vanilla games.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 2:28 AM, greenspade said:

I touched this a bit above in 2 but the main point here is that if your releasing the core game you should either:
~a)
~Hold all HA pokemon back and release them exclusively in the dungeon
Or
~b)
~Finish the coding on the pokemon already released and find a new reward system for this dungeon.

Since you've already failed in doing a) that only leaves us with b). To release a pokemon, in half form, unfinished in its coding and then coming out with a "new version of it" that has its coding finish as "new content" isn't impressing anyone here. This is equal to the sims 3 releasing core game with kids then sims 4 releasing core games with kids dlc, your fan base is going to look at your like wtf are you thinking cuz its a extremely greedy and cheap and lazy way to "create content" out of nothing.

Cuz lets be honest here, it is creating content out of nothing, your refusing to finish coding and then calling the finished coding "new content"

As I said above, there are still core aspects that are being worked on and the reason why is because they need redesigned to fit an MMO rather than being slapped in as they were in the vanilla games only to be reworked later. The devs do not like placing a bandage over issues like that and prefer to actually solve the issue rather than slap in a temporary fix when possible.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 2:28 AM, greenspade said:

"Can't give away everything at once"
This makes me laugh. Cuz they act like this is all they have up their sleeve, if they give us HA "for free" (despite the fact it should've been in the game already) then they won't have any other content or anything else to release? If this is reality then I'm not sure what to even say cuz this is a sad state of things if this is true.

Why I think this statement is such a joke is simply cuz its already in the game.

Gym leaders use HA, trainers use HA, yet we can't cuz the game hasn't been finished coding to alow us to use them.

If all you have is HA, if HA is "everything at once" then this game is in a much much more sad state of affairs then I thought.

You guys have the entire world open to you, you could do anything, theres hundreds of great ideas out there and the best you can come up with is using something that should be in the game already as a way to lure people to use a feature you self admit they wouldn't use if you didn't have HA there as a lure?

I mean if your going to create content should you not be creating content worth a damn instead of holding key-parts of the game hostage in order to make your dungeon worth something?

I'd feel better about a dungeon that was fun to play or had a interesting reason to do it instead of being forced to do it in order to remake the pokemon I already own simply so I can have access to HA. I mean honestly who wants to remake the pokemon you already have just simply cuz you guys are greedy? I say greedy with no shame cuz the only reason I've been given as to why HA is not in the game is cuz you want to USE it as a way to make your dungeons worth playing cuz they would not be otherwise.

Guess what I'm saying here is that you guys could be doing ~Anything~ but instead you made the choice to hold game-braking parts of the game away from us as a way to "create content" instead of just simply creating great content people would actually want.

I'd be more willing to wager the reason for NPCs having HAs is more to ensure they function properly before you have access them as opposed to some perceived middle finger you think the devs are giving you.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 2:28 AM, greenspade said:

Its pretty widely accepted that this is a bad thing, even "matoka" says it wasn't a good thing, trying to play like it was more of a neutral thing "not good or bad". Well we agree on one thing, its for sure not a good thing to release neutered half coded versions of pokemon that are broken and don't work properly, then hold their fully working versions hostage behind a "dungeon content" cuz you can't think of any other way to create content.

It's even worse when you feel like you having donated in the past gives you leave to go around trashing people and acting like a complete fool. Donors are appreciated by the dev team, do not misunderstand me, but donors do not get any special treatment because of that. This is not a valid argument, nor has it ever been a valid argument.

 

Now bear in mind, the ONLY way to obtain Hidden Abilities was through the Dream World in Gen 5, which required you to use your browser to get them. So it's not them "thinking" of a better way to release them. They know how they want to release them but they have to make sure they are designed well first. Things like rewards need to be appealing, Hidden Abilities won't be the only reason for playing dungeons. If you've played any of the past overworld events, Halloween/North Pole/Chinese New Year, you can see hints of stuff they are working towards. Each of those events feels more like a testing ground for designs they have in mind and want to implement. At this point I'd wager it's less about final design and more about proper implementation. They want to be sure that the dungeons will be accessible in methods that make sense (Think how the North Pole dungeon had Santa Claus transport you there).

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At this point, I definitely believe that this discussion is too early to be discussed, whether it be HA’s, dungeons, or legendaries.

Also considering the fact that we don’t even have Sinnoh yet, we’ve got to wait till we get Sinnoh until we get dungeons.

When dungeons get closer, as in the next update(whenever the ‘ell that’ll be), that’s when we should be having these sorts of discussions.

That way, we have time to make our arguments with clear and concise points and possibly provide any counter arguments that may arise.

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13 hours ago, Rittz said:

The OP nailed it. It's just another leg-pull from the devs, they have the HAs already in the game (Gym Leaders, etc.) but they don't let us have them because they don't feel like it. I sometimes have the feeling that this MMO is run by 12 year olds.

Or, and I'm just going out on a limb here, they are mainly using that as a means to make sure they are properly working before they get introduced into PvP so we don't have a million temp bans on them. Is it entirely possible there are legit reasons that don't revolve around the argument that the devs are lazy or do we want to continue riding that dead horse? Serious question here because it seems like people forget how many times moves have been temp banned or disabled because they were broken. They have the luxury of having HAs sandboxed while they make them work, may as well take advantage of that.

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