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Hidden Abilities/Dungeon Suggestion


greenspade

Question

I've been playing since 2012 so hopefully my opinion is seen as valid since I have seen the evolution of this game since near the start.

I tried talking about this last year, only to get flamed by the devs and supported by the player base, so I'm going to try this again in more of a "clear point" form to get to the "core issue" of why this is a bad idea, instead of just saying its a bad idea.

So I quit playing (and donating monthly) for the last year cuz I was told by your staff that instead of releasing Hidden Abilities you where going to instead force us to re-catch all of our already made pokemon in order to have access to the HA that would ONLY come from this "new special dungeon". In my mind, by not continuing to pay, I was removing my support... And when I mentioned this the vibe I got was that nobody cared that there was a large group of people who where upset about this and willing to stop paying over it.

I wondered if anything had happened in the last year or more so thats what has caused me to log in recently and talk to some of the mods, having the exact same results as I did previously the year or so before.

So to prevent us from going in a circle yet again I'd like to do this in simple point form so people can address the core issues of why this is a issue that upsets so many people.

I'd like to talk about this.

The points given by your staff are this:
1)
"This is a mmorpg"
2)
"we need content"
3)
"Can't give away everything at once"
4)
"We need a reason for people to play the dungeon"
5)
"You are not special, there are tons of people like you" (in response to being upset HA is being held hostage as a dungeon reward cuz you have no content)

Longest conversation and most recent conversation was with "matoka" and I am directly quoting him for the last quote.

Okay so these are the "main reasons" given to me by the mods when I talk to them about why hidden abilities have not been released in the game yet.

Here are my issues with this:

1)
Mmorpg's release a "core game" with no restrictions, then come out with expansions or DLC's for additional content. That is NOT what this game is doing when your releasing "broken" pokemon that are part of the core game. I say they are broken since "by design" you have chosen to not finish coding them to give them the hidden abilities, in alot of cases the pokemon no longer function properly without it, so there is non-working pokemon as part of your "core release".

I would say this is closer to "the sims 4" cuz there is the "core game" that lacked all the features of the orginal game that everybody loved to begin with. Then they released all those features everybody loved as dlc's and everybody hated it cuz it was supposed to be part of the "game itself" so it felt broken and incomplete without it. Thats how this feels, the pokemon feel incomplete and broken, yet they are actually in the game atm in this horrid state, in fact they have been like this for years.... despite actually being in the game, trainers and gym leaders ALREADY HAVE hidden abilities, this is "by design" being kept out of the game, "by design" having half coded incompletely pokemon that don't work due to being broken without their HA.

2)
First off if your releasing a dungeon and your self-admitting that its so bad that the only reason to go there is the HA pokemon, then maybe you should focus on creating content thats actually worth while instead of artificially creating "content" by holding back base parts of the game?

Your not creating content if your fixing a broken part of it. Finishing the coding on a group of pokemon you've refused to finish is not "creating new content" its holding a handful of pokemon hostage under the guise that its part of your "dungeon content". When I hear this, all I can think is that your dungeon must be beyond horrid if you can't find a better reason to lure players there then give them fully coded pokemon that should've been in the game years ago as a normal part of it.

If you have so little faith in your own dungeon "content" that without HA that "nobody would use it" then are you admitting now that its not going to be a fun addition to the game that people are going to want to do? I mean if nobody is going to want to do it if you didn't have HA pokemon there, then isn't that just saying the whole thing is unfun, boring and not worth doing? Maybe you guys should come up with a better reward system then using "finished coding of a pokemon thats already in the game" as "content"

3)
I touched this a bit above in 2 but the main point here is that if your releasing the core game you should either:
~a)
~Hold all HA pokemon back and release them exclusively in the dungeon
Or
~b)
~Finish the coding on the pokemon already released and find a new reward system for this dungeon.

Since you've already failed in doing a) that only leaves us with b). To release a pokemon, in half form, unfinished in its coding and then coming out with a "new version of it" that has its coding finish as "new content" isn't impressing anyone here. This is equal to the sims 3 releasing core game with kids then sims 4 releasing core games with kids dlc, your fan base is going to look at your like wtf are you thinking cuz its a extremely greedy and cheap and lazy way to "create content" out of nothing.

Cuz lets be honest here, it is creating content out of nothing, your refusing to finish coding and then calling the finished coding "new content"

4)
"Can't give away everything at once"
This makes me laugh. Cuz they act like this is all they have up their sleeve, if they give us HA "for free" (despite the fact it should've been in the game already) then they won't have any other content or anything else to release? If this is reality then I'm not sure what to even say cuz this is a sad state of things if this is true.

Why I think this statement is such a joke is simply cuz its already in the game.

Gym leaders use HA, trainers use HA, yet we can't cuz the game hasn't been finished coding to alow us to use them.

If all you have is HA, if HA is "everything at once" then this game is in a much much more sad state of affairs then I thought.

You guys have the entire world open to you, you could do anything, theres hundreds of great ideas out there and the best you can come up with is using something that should be in the game already as a way to lure people to use a feature you self admit they wouldn't use if you didn't have HA there as a lure?

I mean if your going to create content should you not be creating content worth a damn instead of holding key-parts of the game hostage in order to make your dungeon worth something?

I'd feel better about a dungeon that was fun to play or had a interesting reason to do it instead of being forced to do it in order to remake the pokemon I already own simply so I can have access to HA. I mean honestly who wants to remake the pokemon you already have just simply cuz you guys are greedy? I say greedy with no shame cuz the only reason I've been given as to why HA is not in the game is cuz you want to USE it as a way to make your dungeons worth playing cuz they would not be otherwise.

Guess what I'm saying here is that you guys could be doing ~Anything~ but instead you made the choice to hold game-braking parts of the game away from us as a way to "create content" instead of just simply creating great content people would actually want.

5)
Its pretty widely accepted that this is a bad thing, even "matoka" says it wasn't a good thing, trying to play like it was more of a neutral thing "not good or bad". Well we agree on one thing, its for sure not a good thing to release neutered half coded versions of pokemon that are broken and don't work properly, then hold their fully working versions hostage behind a "dungeon content" cuz you can't think of any other way to create content.

Legit you need a ideas man on your team cuz if you can't think of anything else, or see why this isn't a good idea, then you have no legitimate ideas.

I mean just throwing this out there but regional leagues would be pretty awesome cuz theres a large player base who dislikes the fact you keep releasing new pokemon and changing the pvp meta.

Personally I had alot of fun back when it was gen 1-3 so having a kanto league I think would be pretty rad cuz I honestly all I see is a power creep with the newer pokemon replacing older pokemon that would've filled the same role.

Riddle me this: once you release all pokemon what is the difference between this game and all the other pokemon pvp games? Not much aside of the single player, in fact I would say other pokemon pvp games would be BETTER cuz you can just make pokemon by selecting exactly what you want instead of being forced to grind for them or use them without hidden abilities in some half-braked version of themselves.

Really losing the charm of this game fast and I'm not sure if the devs even realize it when the mods don't take that feedback to the devs and when I post here I'm flamed and told thats how it is and how its gona be instead of taking this as legitimate feedback.

To be clear I'm not hating on new content releases, I think that you should want to release new content. I just think that refusing to program in half a pokemon thats already in the game, then releasing the fully coded version in a speical area only is super lazy to call "new content" cuz its not new content, its the same old content but properly coded and finished instead of left in a broken bugged version of itself cuz you think letting us use half coded pokemon is legitimate cuz.... you need content and can't figure out a way to get it any other way? You see how sad this sounds?

Edited by greenspade
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I'm not trying to start problems here, I'm trying to start a discussion.

I'd love to talk more in depth about what else we could do for content releases or how else this could be handled or changed, or what other rewards could be in place of HA.

I'm an ideas man, a problem solver and I see nothing but problems here with very little solved in the multiple years I've been asking for HA to be unlocked for everybody not just gym leaders and trainers.

I think there is room for a large discussion here and sharing of suggestions but I fear that since this has been in the works for over a year that what the player base wants doesn't matter.

Edited by greenspade
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4 minutes ago, Minks said:

While i dont agree with everything the OP said, im definitely more in favour of some sort untradeable HA pill as a reward for the dungeons, than having to rebreed 75% of all your current comps. 

The devs have already said that a HA pill wouldn’t be a thing but this sounds like a cool way to introduce them. I could see it working as a low drop rate reward - maybe something like a 1/50 or 1/100 drop chance upon completion of the dungeon

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4 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

The devs have already said that a HA pill wouldn’t be a thing but this sounds like a cool way to introduce them. I could see it working as a low drop rate reward - maybe something like a 1/50 or 1/100 drop chance upon completion of the dungeon

Thing I've got with this suggestion of the suggestion was that I wasn't happy with the idea cos it would destroy the idea of dungeons, which is, as devs said and I think it is great: make PvE and parties important. If the drop rate is that slow it would still working, needing to make them multiple times to get the HA in one way or another, and also bringing a new expensive GTL item to the game, which means more needing of farming money. I'd upvotes this if it were a new topic suggestion. But I think that we should suggest it when dungeons are out. Keeping this in mind for the future!

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24 minutes ago, Minks said:

While i dont agree with everything the OP said, im definitely more in favour of some sort untradeable HA pill as a reward for the dungeons, than having to rebreed 75% of all your current comps. 

Rebreed 75%? Looking at OU, there are only 3 out of 42 mon, or a mere 7%, that almost 100% prefer to have H.A over their normal abi, and so you will want to rebreed them:

 

1) Dragonite with Multiscale

2) Mamoswine with Thick Fat (although, even Oblivious is useful for a sash lead)

3) Gliscor with Poison Heal

 

There are other Pokemon which has useful abilities, but can't be said to be always better than the normal abi, e.g. Starmie can use either Natural Cure or Analytic, Excadrill with either Sand Rush or Mold Breaker, or Conkeldurr with all three usable abilities, etc.

 

This means the release of hidden abilities will only enrich the game content, and hardly a replacement of old contents.

 

So, I just don't see the need for untradeable HA pills per ur suggestion, as they will dilute the value of hunting for H.A. mon in the dungeon.

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13 minutes ago, Tsuruga said:

Rebreed 75%? Looking at OU, there are only 3 out of 42 mon

I'll start by telling you, most mons who need HA aren't OU yet.

But just looking at OU currently:
Breelom, dnite, gyarados, excadrill, lucario, conk, salamence, although some are more niche than others with their HA, all this take value from HA. So not only 3. 
TL;DR; invalid argument.

 

17 minutes ago, Tsuruga said:

This means the release of hidden abilities will only enrich the game content, and hardly a replacement of old contents.

Play the game maybe.

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Just now, razimove said:

I'll start by telling you, most mons who need HA aren't OU yet.

But just looking at OU currently:
 Breelom, dnite, gyarados, excadrill, lucario, conk, salamence, although some are more niche than others with their HA, all this take value from HA. So not only 3. 
 TL;DR; invalid argument.

  

Play the game maybe.

Do I need to spell it out for you?

 

Breloom is usable with both Technician and Poison Heal.

Gyarados is usable with both Moxie and Intimidate.

Lucario is usable with Justified, Inner Focus, Steadfast, thou Justified is arguably better in more cases.

Salamence is usable with both Moxie and Intimidate.

 

Dnite, Conk, Excadrill I already mentioned.

 

This means that you can keep the old set you breed, and just breed a new set. You don't have to "rebreed 75% of your comp", which my argument quoted and targeted at.

 

About taking OU as an example, it's because it's a clear way to make an analysis. I am well aware that many mon in NU can be OU once they have H.A., and different from you, I won't say "most mons who need H.A. aren't OU yet" without anything to support.

 

I really forgot people who play Pokemon can have different level of IQs and reading comprehension. Peace :)

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19 minutes ago, Tsuruga said:

No you 

no... you. Have you even considered the possibility that some mons may need their HA to move up to OU? Or that..... other tiers exist? God and then you're calling other people stupid lmao

Edited by Minks
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1 minute ago, Minks said:

no... you. Have you even considered the possibility that some mons may need their HA to move up to OU? Or that..... other tiers exist? God and then you're calling other people stupid lmao

Please read, or learn to read, esp. my previous post. I am really surprised that I already had to make it clearer than my first post for you and others. I will see myself out :)

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2 minutes ago, Tsuruga said:

About taking OU as an example, it's because it's a clear way to make an analysis. I am well aware that many mon in NU can be OU once they have H.A., and different from you, I won't say "most mons who need H.A. aren't OU yet" without anything to support.

Xatu, is this you? How is OU an example, when you clearly aren't taking in consideration the ones that really need HA? 

Do you need us, to make a drawing for you to understand which mons might move up? Or do you lack that much basic knowledge that you don't even understand the vialibility of some mons once they get HA?

 

5 minutes ago, Tsuruga said:

Breloom is usable with both Technician and Poison Heal.

Gyarados is usable with both Moxie and Intimidate.

Lucario is usable with Justified, Inner Focus, Steadfast, thou Justified is arguably better in more cases.

Salamence is usable with both Moxie and Intimidate.

It's not about if it's usable or it isn't. If someone wants the other ability they are forced to rebreed it, something that can easily be avoided, I can afford to rebreed any comp I want, but the same can't be said about newer players, or even you in the future most likely.


Also, just curiosity of mine, do you even know what I.Q. means?
 

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Just now, Tsuruga said:

Please read, or learn to read, esp. my previous post. I am really surprised that I already had to make it clearer than my first post for you and others. I will see myself out :)

I did. "lol you guys dont have to rebreed your mons, just breed another one!" Yea... great. Good suggestion, very insightful, helpful & relevant. 

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Dungeons seem better than the dream world though, just saying.

 

I dont play the main series games so i cant 100% verify this but i dont recall there being an item in the main series pokemon games that allows you to change your pokemon's ability into its hidden ability so i dont see why the dev's are responsible for implementing something like that. From what i can remember hidden ability pokemon were always obtained through different means and i find dungeons a cool idea to get them.

 

This game is better than showdown and games alike specifically because of the grind, mmorpgs thrive in grinding. Showdown for example is just a simulator, its a whole different game philosophy from an mmorpg. Though it would be a nice addition to pokeMMO to get regional formats kind of like what showdown does with Gen specific formats, for example having a Gen 3 format would be nice.

 

6 hours ago, greenspade said:

I mean if nobody is going to want to do it if you didn't have HA pokemon there, then isn't that just saying the whole thing is unfun, boring and not worth doing?

It wont be unfun, boring a not worth doing if theres HA pokemon and legendaries there, the devs cant exactly create new stuff either because (from what i've heard) nintendo hasnt come to get the devs in legal trouble because PokeMMO is considered a mod on the original game roms so it doesnt violate any copyright stuff. That could change if they decide to add original content to the game.

 

From my perspective it makes sense to leave HAs to be implemented alongside dungeons, instead of ''bugged'' or ''half-finished code'' i see it as the developers holding features back to release them in the future in a more engaging way (AKA the dungeons). Since they cant put forth 100% original content they have to manage whatever resources they have from the original roms to RELEASE ''new'' content (not create as the devs dont exactly create new content).

6 hours ago, greenspade said:

then come out with expansions or DLC's for additional content.

Dungeons arent DLC lol, it will be a core part of the game, this game is still in development.

By the point you're playing competitively (which i assume you would be if you want hidden ability pokemon) you would have enough resources to play through the dungeons. Its not as if you're locked out of dungeons or anything.

 

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

Your not creating content if your fixing a broken part of it. Finishing the coding on a group of pokemon you've refused to finish is not "creating new content" its holding a handful of pokemon hostage under the guise that its part of your "dungeon content". When I hear this, all I can think is that your dungeon must be beyond horrid if you can't find a better reason to lure players there then give them fully coded pokemon that should've been in the game years ago as a normal part of it.

They dont create content, they ''release'' it, thats why its ''held back'', in order for something to be ''released'' it has to have been '''held back'' at some point. As I already said, HAs seem to be a perfectly reasonable reward for dungeons, it'll be a nice addition to the economy (arguably the best and most differentiating feature of this game) and one thing will justify the other: HAs will justify running through the dungeons; Dungeons will be the main source of HA pokemon, also ''normal part of it''? Dungeons will be part of the ''normal'' or ''core game'' (again).

 

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

Why I think this statement is such a joke is simply cuz its already in the game.

Yeah, its there to increase difficulty, also since they are there it means that they are ''coded'', they're just not available to the player base, only NPCs. Same with legendaries as you can see them in the battle frontier.

 

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

key-parts

What do you mean ''key-parts'' the game developed a metagame and competitive scene without HAs and has been playable without HAs for some years now

 

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

I'd feel better about a dungeon that was fun to play or had a interesting reason to do it instead of being forced to do it in order to remake the pokemon I already own simply so I can have access to HA.

HAs are the interesting reason... You're not forced to play dungeons to get HA pokemon since you dont *need* HA pokemon, you'll play them because you *want* HA pokemon. Saying that you're forced to run through the dungeon to get HA pkmn is the same as saying you're forced to play the game to progress. Of course you have to play to get stuff what do you expect? Having money fall out from the skies?

 

Also the whole remaking pokemon you already own thing, people already do that... Theres a couple moveset, IV and EV differences between some builds of comps and some people breed the same pokemon over again but with a different build. You having to breed the same pokemon again is just a change in the competitive scene, its nothing new. It happened with blisseys when eviolite was implemented for example, and as new items and pokemon get added the competitive scene will inevitably change and some pokemon will be powercrept, thats just progress

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

Well we agree on one thing, its for sure not a good thing to release neutered half coded versions of pokemon that are broken and don't work properly, then hold their fully working versions hostage behind a "dungeon content" cuz you can't think of any other way to create content.

Again, from the extent of my knowledge HA pokemon arent exactly found in the wild in the main series pokemon games either. Also ''fully working'' and ''game breaking''? you are aware that there are some weak hidden abilities right? At most you could say that HAs are alternative versions of the pokemon which means that the normal non-HA pokemon arent ''half coded'', they're just as they're supposed to be and HAs are the alternative.

 

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

Riddle me this: once you release all pokemon what is the difference between this game and all the other pokemon pvp games? Not much aside of the single player, in fact I would say other pokemon pvp games would be BETTER cuz you can just make pokemon by selecting exactly what you want instead of being forced to grind for them or use them without hidden abilities in some half-braked version of themselves.

The grinding and the economy, plus the guilds and player interactions are all good attributes that i've noticed differentiate this game from things like showdown. Grinding IS part of the fun.

 

7 hours ago, greenspade said:

To be clear I'm not hating on new content releases, I think that you should want to release new content. I just think that refusing to program in half a pokemon thats already in the game, then releasing the fully coded version in a speical area only is super lazy to call "new content" cuz its not new content, its the same old content but properly coded and finished instead of left in a broken bugged version of itself cuz you think letting us use half coded pokemon is legitimate cuz.... you need content and can't figure out a way to get it any other way? You see how sad this sounds?

''I'm not hating on new releases, but also this new release is shit i jjust want HAs without having to work for it'' this is how you sound mate. Also they arent ''refusing to program in half a pokemon thats already in the game''... the whole point of the dungeon is to implement that ''half a pokemon'' dude they are literally making progress to implement the thing that you want to be implemented. Also again, they need to work with the content in the original games because they could get in trouble for diverging from the ''mod'' status of pokemmo.

 

Dang i hope i didnt repeat myself too much

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I mean, no matter what they do with hidden abilities , it'll bother a group of people or another, if they implement hidden abilities like in the main games where you have to breed a female with a hidden ability, it will destroy people with comp shinies, or the people that have won shinies in events if the pokemon they have are better in every way with their hidden abilities, like the most recent ones, volbeat and illumise, they are completely useless without prankster, so people that have their shinies will be stuck with illuminane or swarm.

 

In the other hand, if they implement hidden abilities in those dungeons, we'd still have to re breed our pokemon to get them, it's just like with the movesets I'd rather breed a new pokemon than using a TM every once in a while. You have your inner focus dragonites right now, with a specific EV spread, you'd have to breed another with different ivs and differente ev spreads once we have the disgusing thing that is multiscale; plus there is tons of pokemon right now that have completely different functions with or without their hidden abilities, you wouldn't want to just change their abilities without changing their function in your team.

Edited by Arielle
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10 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

The real question is, when will the devs get off their lazy tootusses and get working on this so less people are angered about it?

(even though I’m aware sinnoh will most likely be coming out first)

 

Can't be sure but I've always had the impression that everything is coming out at the same time tho

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17 minutes ago, SoloReprise said:

Can't be sure but I've always had the impression that everything is coming out at the same time tho

Would that even be possible?

Never thought of it that way.

I always saw sinnoh and dungeons as 2 major features that had to be implemented separately.

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50 minutes ago, BoltBlades12 said:

Would that even be possible?

Never thought of it that way.

I always saw sinnoh and dungeons as 2 major features that had to be implemented separately.

Maybe I'm being too naive, tho. I think that it could be a possibility as how many time we've spend talking around this two things. "SoonTM" means both Sinnoh and Dungeons to me, and I don't think that it would be too imposible to se both things at the same time as they're both supossed priorities right now.

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1 hour ago, SoloReprise said:

Maybe I'm being too naive, tho. I think that it could be a possibility as how many time we've spend talking around this two things. "SoonTM" means both Sinnoh and Dungeons to me, and I don't think that it would be too imposible to se both things at the same time as they're both supossed priorities right now.

Sinnoh first, then dungeons. One takes more development time than the other so yeah.

 

Just thought I'd answer your question, I've got no input on the rest of the thread cause I don't really care enough, updates will happen when they happen and the dungeon thing will happen in ways most people would love :3

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I'm not gonna weigh in too much on the whole if there should be a pill or not discussion, but I'll just say as a player I really really do not want to breed stuff at the moment that would eventually have a hidden ability that causes the pokemon in question to nearly jump a tier. It would just seem a waste of my time to use my already established builds as breeding material to go through the process again of buying the bands, designating the nature it's born with, etc.

 

I think this is called FOMO (fear of missing out), and generally just a bad effect that can happen within games. I hope the introduction of hidden abilities will be economical to where something can be done with already existing builds, or at least that they won't be too hard to breed themselves. If it ends up as trying to be a money sink for the influx of yen in the economy, I'll be disappointed because I feel that would create a larger barrier of entry for casual players to play comp.

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Darkshade did say an HA pill for shinies sounded like a good idea, given how much comp shinies cost to breed. I'm definitely in favor for a normal Hidden Ability pill being found after a dungeon with a really low drop rate, as its rarity would lead to it having a high price on the GTL. But I'm not against the idea of it being breedable if the HA is passed on regardless of the parent's gender. With a low chance of the item dropping, it would probably be cheaper to breed an unnatured HA comp than it would be to buy a pill off the GTL.

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On 6/24/2019 at 2:29 PM, Raichu4u said:

I think this is called FOMO (fear of missing out), and generally just a bad effect that can happen within games. I hope the introduction of hidden abilities will be economical to where something can be done with already existing builds, or at least that they won't be too hard to breed themselves. If it ends up as trying to be a money sink for the influx of yen in the economy, I'll be disappointed because I feel that would create a larger barrier of entry for casual players to play comp.

I mean, breeding a hidden ability comp from scratch when you have a base breeder with an HA would cost the same as a normal comp, considering you wouldn't need an item to pass on the ability. So I don't think the non-HA version of a Pokemon becoming obsolete in comp once HAs are introduced would be much of a barrier to entry. And adding an HA to an already existing comp Pokemon would cost the same as changing the nature of a Pokemon, so I don't see how it'd cost that much to breed.

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1 minute ago, Dibz said:

I mean, breeding a hidden ability comp from scratch when you have a base breeder with an HA would cost the same as a normal comp, considering you wouldn't need an item to pass on the ability. So I don't think the non-HA version of a Pokemon becoming obsolete in comp once HAs are introduced would be much of a barrier to entry. And adding an HA to an already existing comp Pokemon would cost the same as changing the nature of a Pokemon, so I don't see how it'd cost that much to breed.

If you started off with both base breeders, sure. But I mean if I have an already existing 5x31 comp without a hidden ability, you end up paying more in the long run to eventually create your then 5x31 with a hidden ability and correct nature by using your 5x31 without the hidden ability as a mother or father to your build.

The only reason why I bring this up is because I recall a mod or admin on here saying "Don't worry guys, even though we have no plans to introduce a pill for that, you can still use your old builds to breed".

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