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Sykopomp

Are quick balls not working as intended?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Munya said:

but as he has also said the ball rates are modified here so using the vanilla ball rates in the formula may not net you accurate results

2 hours ago, Munya said:

It was broken, however, we weren't aware that it was at the time, and since we weren't, we couldn't exactly inform anybody that there was a fix in the works

3 hours ago, Matoka said:

As I said before I am very confident Dusk Ball has been intentionally nerfed, along with the other Pokeballs. If It hasn't and this is a mistake I will return and address this, but I am quite confident on my memory regarding this.

I am confused, so were the balls such as dusk balls intentionally nerfed or was the catch rate broken since 2012?

Edited by Dazuzi

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They aren't exclusive, catch rates were broken, some ball rates were modified.

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The base calculation, the thing that understood whatever the equivalent of 1+1 = 2, was broken. that is the catch rate fix that happened in December.

Some pokeballs were nerfed to be worse than the handhelds for balance reasons, not bug fix reasons.

So, to answer your question, "Both" but for different reasons.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Matoka said:

Your entire MMO's economy is based around pokemon, if the source of obtaining pokemon is too easy then they become increasingly more cheap, if they become cheaper on an individual level then them combined (into comps) becomes cheaper overall in terms of how players value them. This makes selling pokemon a nightmare which means people to make money will turn to things like selling vanities or shiny pokemon as nothing else will hold any semblance of value.

Catching things like ditto or rare breeders isn't even profitable enough anymore given the cost of the balls required to catch them. So no, the markets wouldn't crash if the catch rate was made better, the market would flourish. So that's a very invalid bunch of points.

 

This entire catch-rate nerf has been nothing but a shitstorm, and none of the reasoning behind it has been valid or even remotely acceptable from a player standpoint. Just fix it already =/

Edited by Dibz

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56 minutes ago, Dibz said:

Catching things like ditto or rare breeders isn't even profitable enough anymore given the cost of the balls required to catch them. So no, the markets wouldn't crash if the catch rate was made better, the market would flourish. So that's a very invalid bunch of points.

 

This entire catch-rate nerf has been nothing but a shitstorm, and none of the reasoning behind it has been valid or even remotely acceptable from a player standpoint. Just fix it already =/

The point about pokeball cost is just incorrect, the cost of Pokeballs used has always been a deduction from overall profit through sales, their prices have not changed drastically (though the number required is no longer required to be 1 due to 100% catch rate). Over time market will see minor price increases for sales of 1x31's and dittos etc to balance this fact out.
You are citing the fact that things have not instantly become more profitable over the course of 6 months in a 7 year old economy as "proof" that it "Isn't a valid point". These things take time.
All of the pokemon that had been stockpiled into the market from BEFORE the change need to be consumed / removed before the price will have fully readjusted which explains why it takes more than 6 months.

Players perceiving this as a bad thing is entirely understandable, it feels tangibly bad because you can look at the before and after and go "I don't like this", but if everything was infinitely easy to catch every pokemon would become worthless as you wouldn't need to spend time taking turns to false swipe + spore, you wouldn't need to spend 1-2 extra turns because it isn't a 100% catch rate, you wouldn't need to invest money into more pokeballs for those extra attempts. All of this makes the pokemon "Easier" to obtain, people pay less for "Easy to obtain" things.

Look at Scyther on the GTL (currently 20k+), then compare that to Larvitar (7k+), and then compare that to Timburr (1k+).

These are all incredibly prevalent OU Pokemon families, so their demand is arguably equivalent yet their prices on the GTL are drastically different. Scythers are 2,000% the price of Timburr.
Why is this? Because Scyther is "Tedious" to catch by comparison to Larvitar, and Larvitar is more "Tedious" to catch than Timburr as it is rarer. You can extrapolate this in general to "What if we made Scyther easier to catch?" The answer is it would drop in price to about the price of Larvitar if it was rare, or to the price of TImburr if it was common. If you want to turn around and tell me that the Timburr market is "Flourishing" you are free to do so of course, but I am free to disagree and say it is a dead market that will never feasibly hold value.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Matoka said:

The point about pokeball cost is just incorrect, the cost of Pokeballs used has always been a deduction from overall profit through sales, their prices have not changed drastically (though the number required is no longer required to be 1 due to 100% catch rate). Over time market will see minor price increases for sales of 1x31's and dittos etc to balance this fact out.
You are citing the fact that things have not instantly become more profitable over the course of 6 months in aLook at Scyther on the GTL (currently 20k+), then compare that to Larvitar (7k+), and then compare that to Timburr (1k+).

These are all incredibly prevalent OU Pokemon families, so their demand is arguably equivalent yet their prices on the GTL are drastically different. Scythers are 2,000% the price of Timburr.
Why is this? Because Scyther is "Tedious" to catch by comparison to Larvitar, and Larvitar is more "Tedious" to catch than Timburr as it is rarer. You can extrapolate this in general to "What if we made Scyther easier to catch?" The answer is it would drop in price to about the price of Larvitar if it was rare, or to the price of TImburr if it was common. If you want to turn around and tell me that the Timburr market is "Flourishing" you are free to do so of course, but I am free to disagree and say it is a dead market that will never feasibly hold value.
 

You should also keep in mind you can only get Scyther via the Safari Zone. Meaning those things have a common tendency to run. And you only have Safari Ball to catch it, which is same rate as pokeball. And pf course the only way to alter odds is rock or bait. No dusk ball, no repeat ball, no status conditions; only safari ball and rock/bait. The high price is understandable. And it’s been like that even without the nerf.

 

Larvitar and Timburr can be found at rare/common rate. But the difference? Not only can you find them in more than one area, but you can use any ball with enhanced catch rate to catch them. No restrictions, unlike Scyther. Their low prices on gtl are understandable.

 

The market will remain dead as it is because if effectiveness for balls is nerfed, less people will breeder hunt since catches aren’t guaranteed anymore. And the amount of people only spending their in-game money on shinies and vanities will  stay the same and most likely increase and decrease on breeders.

 

It was already perfect the way it was. Albeit your false opinion.

 

And here’s a question:

What if you’re wrong(which is definitely the case) and market doesn’t improve?

Edited by BoltBlades12

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Matoka said:

Look at Scyther on the GTL (currently 20k+), then compare that to Larvitar (7k+), and then compare that to Timburr (1k+).

These are all incredibly prevalent OU Pokemon families, so their demand is arguably equivalent yet their prices on the GTL are drastically different. Scythers are 2,000% the price of Timburr.
Why is this? Because Scyther is "Tedious" to catch by comparison to Larvitar, and Larvitar is more "Tedious" to catch than Timburr as it is rarer. You can extrapolate this in general to "What if we made Scyther easier to catch?" The answer is it would drop in price to about the price of Larvitar if it was rare, or to the price of TImburr if it was common. If you want to turn around and tell me that the Timburr market is "Flourishing" you are free to do so of course, but I am free to disagree and say it is a dead market that will never feasibly hold value.

Scyhers remain equivalent to the price they are to buy in the game corner (25k usually, depending on how you buy coins). Believe it or not, people buy thousands and thousands of Scythers from game corner (hoping for shiny) then re-sell them in GTL for as close to what they paid to begin with. Additionally, I don't think a safari pokemon is comparable to 2 non safari, "in demand" pokemon.

 

I don't have experience to catching larvitar or timburr after the nuke in December 2018 (which staff tried to play off as a bug fix for low tier balls, but that's another discussion)

 

Per their Changelog:

Fixed an issue where, in some cases, ball catch formulas would calculate incorrectly for low-end balls

  • This primarily affected cases where status ailments and a large level disparity would allow guaranteed catches, instead of correctly scaling the formula. Other edge cases may have been affected.

Several months went by until we got a straight answer from staff (today, Munya's reply). These changes were clearly affecting high tier balls such as ultra and dusk balls, and people were rightfully confused. By submitting a BUG REPORT, we were given a straight answer, they were straight up changed "to better fit an MMO environment". That was then backtracked by Munya again, by saying the high tier balls were changed in 2015. If this was the case, we would've felt the effects 3+ years ago, not all at the same time, in December 2018. This inspired months of confusion by players, including myself, who was straight up ignored by why high tier balls were affected by this "bug fix" in the December 30th changelog.

 

By Munya saying today:

8 hours ago, Munya said:

They aren't exclusive, catch rates were broken, some ball rates were modified.

I really hope this means that they were modified in December 2018, not in 2015 as you mentioned, and we can just clear this up once and for all. If that is done, all it boils down to is poor communication by staff, which we've known since day 1.

 

@Munya could you clarify what you mean? Were high tier balls changed (December 2018) while you were "fixing" the lower tier balls that were broken since day 1 or whatever?

 

.

 

Edited by awkways
Grammar

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What was broken was broken since say one apparently and I was wrong about remembering things in '12 and before hoenn differently, ditto apparently used what it transformed intos catch rate or something along those lines and I was using ditto as a baseline for my memories not being aware of that, or so I'm told.  So the things were right then broke before being fixed again now post from myself was incorrect, they were always broke.

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7 hours ago, Matoka said:

but if everything was infinitely easy to catch every pokemon would become worthless as you wouldn't need to spend time taking turns to false swipe + spore

But over the course of the last several years breeders didn't become worthless and people are indeed taking turns to false swipe + spore?

8 hours ago, Matoka said:

Look at Scyther on the GTL (currently 20k+), then compare that to Larvitar (7k+), and then compare that to Timburr (1k+).

These are all incredibly prevalent OU Pokemon families, so their demand is arguably equivalent yet their prices on the GTL are drastically different. Scythers are 2,000% the price of Timburr.
Why is this? Because Scyther is "Tedious" to catch by comparison to Larvitar, and Larvitar is more "Tedious" to catch than Timburr as it is rarer.

You're ignoring crucial details such as difference in availability and obtainability, nobody really hunts scythers in safari for profit, because of the inability of influencing the outcome other than by using rocks or bait, which both have a downside and don't guarantee anything. Scythers also technically have an artificially fixed 25k price tag on them by the game corner, so their minimal market value won't fluctuate much from that point downwards.

8 hours ago, Matoka said:

If you want to turn around and tell me that the Timburr market is "Flourishing" you are free to do so of course, but I am free to disagree and say it is a dead market that will never feasibly hold value.

Most of individual's pokemon value comes from it's IVs, nature, egg group, gender or a combination of these factors, if a catch doesn't fit any of this criteria why should it hold any value if there is none to begin with? It feels to me like pushing value onto a worthless market for the sake of pushing value.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Matoka said:

The point about pokeball cost is just incorrect, the cost of Pokeballs used has always been a deduction from overall profit through sales, their prices have not changed drastically (though the number required is no longer required to be 1 due to 100% catch rate). Over time market will see minor price increases for sales of 1x31's and dittos etc to balance this fact out.
You are citing the fact that things have not instantly become more profitable over the course of 6 months in a 7 year old economy as "proof" that it "Isn't a valid point". These things take time.
All of the pokemon that had been stockpiled into the market from BEFORE the change need to be consumed / removed before the price will have fully readjusted which explains why it takes more than 6 months.

Players perceiving this as a bad thing is entirely understandable, it feels tangibly bad because you can look at the before and after and go "I don't like this", but if everything was infinitely easy to catch every pokemon would become worthless as you wouldn't need to spend time taking turns to false swipe + spore, you wouldn't need to spend 1-2 extra turns because it isn't a 100% catch rate, you wouldn't need to invest money into more pokeballs for those extra attempts. All of this makes the pokemon "Easier" to obtain, people pay less for "Easy to obtain" things.

Look at Scyther on the GTL (currently 20k+), then compare that to Larvitar (7k+), and then compare that to Timburr (1k+).

These are all incredibly prevalent OU Pokemon families, so their demand is arguably equivalent yet their prices on the GTL are drastically different. Scythers are 2,000% the price of Timburr.
Why is this? Because Scyther is "Tedious" to catch by comparison to Larvitar, and Larvitar is more "Tedious" to catch than Timburr as it is rarer. You can extrapolate this in general to "What if we made Scyther easier to catch?" The answer is it would drop in price to about the price of Larvitar if it was rare, or to the price of TImburr if it was common. If you want to turn around and tell me that the Timburr market is "Flourishing" you are free to do so of course, but I am free to disagree and say it is a dead market that will never feasibly hold value.

 

Unable to quote snipets in mobile, but had a good laugh Matoka, its almost as if you dont play the game.

 

Scythers kept the same value they previously had. So did rverything, and if they didnt keep, the value dropped, didnt increase. And why is a scyther that price? Its literally because game corner set a standard and supply and demand allows him to remain at that price, nothing else. And pokeballs do not affect their value, once again, they are irrelevant and a dumb way of trying to deal with a problrm that didnt exist in the first place.

Edited by razimove

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On 6/13/2019 at 12:34 AM, Munya said:

What was broken was broken since say one apparently and I was wrong about remembering things in '12 and before hoenn differently, ditto apparently used what it transformed intos catch rate or something along those lines and I was using ditto as a baseline for my memories not being aware of that, or so I'm told.  So the things were right then broke before being fixed again now post from myself was incorrect, they were always broke.

We get it, you got confused a bit about the rates, we all prob did at some point, but could you answer my question that i specifically asked?

 

On 6/13/2019 at 12:27 AM, awkways said:

could you clarify what you mean? Were high tier balls changed (December 2018) while you were "fixing" the lower tier balls that were broken since day 1 or whatever?

We all felt the effects of high tier balls such as ultra and dusk being changed in December. We know they were changed but you said fixed a couple times and the fix you pointed to for high tier balls was dated 2015. This was a mistake right? Dusk and Ultra and other higher tier balls were modified "to better suit an mmo environment" in December 2018? Not 2015? Along with the low-tier balls like the bug report mentioned?

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I don't recall pointing towards an update about ball rates, but afaik, several of them have not had a vanilla modifier for quite some time now so if it was me, or someone else did, the update log is probably correct.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Munya said:

I don't recall pointing towards an update about ball rates, but afaik, several of them have not had a vanilla modifier for quite some time now so if it was me, or someone else did, the update log is probably correct.  

This is where you, specifically, stated that high tier ball catch rates were changed in 2015, as I stated in my earlier comment. So now I'll ask a 3rd time again I guess, was this incorrect?

 

We all felt the changes in this changelog, in 2018:

All this changelog mentions is a bug fix about low tier balls being affected. This is what this whole fuss has been about and every time we ask the question gets dodged.

Edited by awkways

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8 hours ago, Munya said:

I don't recall pointing towards an update about ball rates, but afaik, several of them have not had a vanilla modifier for quite some time now so if it was me, or someone else did, the update log is probably correct.  

Again though ball rates are not the core catch rate formula, they are seperate things, fixing the catch rate formula and the ball rates being different from vanilla are two entirely seperate things, one is a small piece to the formula, the other is the actual thing as a whole.

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On 6/14/2019 at 1:14 PM, awkways said:

Got it. Never gonna give us a straight answer on this one. Thanks for the help.

To further that, probably never gonna get a fix for it either, nor any valid reasoning behind it. All I've seen so far are empty justifications that are just staff members defending this decision to the death with whatever they can make sound like fact. 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Dibz said:

To further that, probably never gonna get a fix for it either, nor any valid reasoning behind it. All I've seen so far are empty justifications that are just staff members defending this decision to the death with whatever they can make sound like fact. 

 

Unfortunately, staff are like your stereotypical parents.

Whenever you actually bring up a valid point, they either try to defend themselves by uttering nonsense and facts pulled out of assumptions as opposed to actual facts and logistics. Or they play the “Disrespect” card, or in @Matoka‘s case, “Closing thread”.

 

I wish there was a way we could boycott the game until they revert this unnecessary and completely bullshit change, but unfortunately I do not believe there is a way.

Edited by BoltBlades12

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Since the OP's question has been sufficiently answered by fellow players and staff, I will be closing this thread before it derails further. There is already a 'Catch Rate Revert' thread in the Suggestion Box suggestion should you wish to discuss this topic in further detail and even then I recommend explaining your points in a logical and discursive manner as opposed to 'complaining'  and taking out your frustrations on fellow staff.

 

Have a nice day.

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