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June-Movement Discussion Thread


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OU:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  274356 45726
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Scizor 14777 32.32%
Conkeldurr 11501 25.15%
Hydreigon 10127 22.15%
Ferrothorn 9170 20.05%
Gengar 9055 19.80%
Salamence 8761 19.16%
Tyranitar 7888 17.25%
Milotic 7726 16.90%
Volcarona 7717 16.88%
Magnezone 7409 16.20%
Jolteon 6810 14.89%
Blissey 6639 14.52%
Excadrill 6606 14.45%
Gliscor 6537 14.30%
Pelipper 6065 13.26%
Cofagrigus 6022 13.17%
Togekiss 5968 13.05%
Gyarados 5914 12.93%
Kingdra 5718 12.50%
Skarmory 5712 12.49%
Tentacruel 5601 12.25%
Swampert 5234 11.45%
Dragonite 5120 11.20%
Mienshao 4810 10.52%
Darmanitan 4499 9.84%
Chansey 4313 9.43%
Chandelure 4250 9.29%
Reuniclus 4228 9.25%
Breloom 3842 8.40%
Hippowdon 3199 7.00%
Cloyster 3162 6.92%
Lucario 2891 6.32%
Metagross 2794 6.11%
Kabutops 2698 5.90%
Starmie 2354 5.15%
Arcanine 2202 4.82%
Porygon2 2162 4.73%
Mamoswine 1718 3.76%
Torkoal 1668 3.65%
Umbreon 1631 3.57%
Aerodactyl 1528 3.34%
Lanturn 1503 3.29%
Crobat 1449 3.17%
Mandibuzz 1382 3.02%
Jellicent 1331 2.91%
Haxorus 1235 2.70%
Zoroark 1234 2.70%
Mantine 1139 2.49%
Scrafty 1085 2.37%
Snorlax 1077 2.36%
Venusaur 1067 2.33%
Alakazam 998 2.18%
Bronzong 948 2.07%
Weavile 912 1.99%
Forretress 835 1.83%
Yanmega 776 1.70%
Medicham 757 1.66%
Charizard 754 1.65%
Electrode 748 1.64%
Donphan 739 1.62%
Flygon 686 1.50%
Azumarill 679 1.48%
Electivire 666 1.46%
Slowbro 647 1.41%
Ambipom 624 1.36%
Whimsicott 618 1.35%
Dusclops 547 1.20%
Wobbuffet 536 1.17%
Bisharp 521 1.14%
Ludicolo 506 1.11%
Heracross 504 1.10%
Vaporeon 502 1.10%
Swellow 499 1.09%
Dugtrio 492 1.08%
Gallade 482 1.05%
Weezing 477 1.04%
Manectric 465 1.02%

UU:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  3732 622
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Crobat 241 38.75%
Lanturn 160 25.72%
Mandibuzz 159 25.56%
Snorlax 138 22.19%
Gligar 137 22.03%
Yanmega 123 19.77%
Forretress 119 19.13%
Medicham 106 17.04%
Vaporeon 105 16.88%
Heracross 104 16.72%
Jellicent 91 14.63%
Weavile 90 14.47%
Eelektross 90 14.47%
Scrafty 78 12.54%
Machamp 76 12.22%
Typhlosion 67 10.77%
Bisharp 66 10.61%
Venomoth 66 10.61%
Bronzong 64 10.29%
Dusclops 63 10.13%
Gigalith 61 9.81%
Krookodile 60 9.65%
Rhyperior 59 9.49%
Flygon 57 9.16%
Absol 57 9.16%
Donphan 56 9.00%
Azumarill 55 8.84%
Dugtrio 52 8.36%
Galvantula 49 7.88%
Magneton 46 7.40%
Venusaur 45 7.23%
Alakazam 42 6.75%
Roserade 40 6.43%
Electrode 38 6.11%
Mantine 34 5.47%
Wobbuffet 33 5.31%
Steelix 33 5.31%
Torkoal 28 4.50%
Manectric 28 4.50%
Honchkrow 27 4.34%
Sigilyph 22 3.54%
Aerodactyl 21 3.38%
Blaziken 20 3.22%
Poliwrath 20 3.22%
Gallade 19 3.05%
Dusknoir 19 3.05%
Gardevoir 19 3.05%
Linoone 19 3.05%
Lilligant 17 2.73%
Slowbro 16 2.57%
Druddigon 16 2.57%
Durant 16 2.57%
Hariyama 15 2.41%
Feraligatr 15 2.41%
Nidoqueen 13 2.09%
Charizard 12 1.93%
Exeggutor 12 1.93%
Blastoise 12 1.93%
Espeon 12 1.93%
Aggron 11 1.77%
Houndoom 11 1.77%
Golurk 11 1.77%
Quagsire 11 1.77%
Electivire 10 1.61%
Archeops 10 1.61%
Serperior 10 1.61%
Omastar 9 1.45%
Kangaskhan 9 1.45%
Ambipom 8 1.29%
Smeargle 8 1.29%
Sceptile 8 1.29%
Clefable 8 1.29%
Vanilluxe 8 1.29%
Bibarel 8 1.29%
Lapras 7 1.13%
Mismagius 7 1.13%
Golbat 7 1.13%
Accelgor 7 1.13%

NU:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  7296 1216
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Steelix 334 27.47%
Golbat 316 25.99%
Gallade 261 21.46%
Blastoise 245 20.15%
Manectric 221 18.17%
Mismagius 212 17.43%
Charizard 184 15.13%
Gardevoir 161 13.24%
Primeape 144 11.84%
Lilligant 142 11.68%
Espeon 141 11.60%
Slowking 141 11.60%
Druddigon 139 11.43%
Slowbro 124 10.20%
Durant 111 9.13%
Ambipom 111 9.13%
Clefable 108 8.88%
Swellow 104 8.55%
Houndoom 102 8.39%
Bibarel 100 8.22%
Kangaskhan 95 7.81%
Nidoqueen 94 7.73%
Altaria 92 7.57%
Braviary 90 7.40%
Electrode 84 6.91%
Linoone 84 6.91%
Sceptile 83 6.83%
Whimsicott 82 6.74%
Musharna 80 6.58%
Aerodactyl 79 6.50%
Dusknoir 78 6.41%
Omastar 77 6.33%
Vanilluxe 73 6.00%
Ludicolo 70 5.76%
Throh 68 5.59%
Electivire 67 5.51%
Miltank 66 5.43%
Weezing 65 5.35%
Cryogonal 65 5.35%
Hitmontop 63 5.18%
Probopass 62 5.10%
Feraligatr 61 5.02%
Golurk 58 4.77%
Sableye 58 4.77%
Blaziken 57 4.69%
Aggron 55 4.52%
Roselia 54 4.44%
Hariyama 53 4.36%
Ferroseed 49 4.03%
Archeops 48 3.95%
Poliwrath 44 3.62%
Quagsire 42 3.45%
Ursaring 42 3.45%
Scyther 40 3.29%
Claydol 40 3.29%
Golem 39 3.21%
Muk 39 3.21%
Emboar 38 3.13%
Tauros 38 3.13%
Munchlax 38 3.13%
Raichu 37 3.04%
Escavalier 37 3.04%
Froslass 34 2.80%
Stunfisk 34 2.80%
Lapras 33 2.71%
Pinsir 33 2.71%
Lickilicky 32 2.63%
Magmortar 30 2.47%
Serperior 28 2.30%
Pikachu 28 2.30%
Sawk 28 2.30%
Accelgor 27 2.22%
Rhydon 27 2.22%
Flareon 26 2.14%
Amoonguss 26 2.14%
Samurott 26 2.14%
Gurdurr 26 2.14%
Smeargle 25 2.06%
Haunter 24 1.97%
Sandslash 24 1.97%
Hitmonchan 24 1.97%
Alomomola 23 1.89%
Tangrowth 23 1.89%
Hitmonlee 22 1.81%
Nidoking 21 1.73%
Raticate 21 1.73%
Crawdaunt 20 1.64%
Seismitoad 19 1.56%
Sharpedo 18 1.48%
Metang 18 1.48%
Gorebyss 17 1.40%
Ampharos 17 1.40%
Audino 17 1.40%
Dodrio 17 1.40%
Carracosta 17 1.40%
Ninetales 16 1.32%
Cradily 15 1.23%
Crustle 15 1.23%
Piloswine 14 1.15%
Camerupt 14 1.15%
Exeggutor 13 1.07%
Hypno 13 1.07%

Doubles:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  1860 310
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Salamence 88 28.39%
Hitmontop 85 27.42%
Pelipper 69 22.26%
Tyranitar 66 21.29%
Volcarona 61 19.68%
Metagross 60 19.35%
Togekiss 60 19.35%
Ferrothorn 57 18.39%
Hydreigon 52 16.77%
Gengar 51 16.45%
Gyarados 46 14.84%
Kingdra 46 14.84%
Torkoal 46 14.84%
Conkeldurr 35 11.29%
Excadrill 35 11.29%
Breloom 31 10.00%
Mienshao 31 10.00%
Lilligant 30 9.68%
Scizor 29 9.35%
Jolteon 28 9.03%
Ludicolo 28 9.03%
Darmanitan 26 8.39%
Arcanine 25 8.06%
Bisharp 22 7.10%
Blastoise 22 7.10%
Blissey 22 7.10%
Chandelure 22 7.10%
Porygon2 22 7.10%
Reuniclus 22 7.10%
Milotic 21 6.77%
Swampert 21 6.77%
Manectric 20 6.45%
Eelektross 18 5.81%
Snorlax 18 5.81%
Typhlosion 18 5.81%
Kabutops 16 5.16%
Slowking 16 5.16%
Whimsicott 16 5.16%
Amoonguss 15 4.84%
Dragonite 15 4.84%
Hariyama 15 4.84%
Magnezone 15 4.84%
Chansey 14 4.52%
Dusclops 12 3.87%
Golduck 12 3.87%
Crobat 11 3.55%
Rhyperior 11 3.55%
Smeargle 11 3.55%
Starmie 11 3.55%
Cofagrigus 10 3.23%
Electrode 10 3.23%
Serperior 10 3.23%
Venusaur 10 3.23%
Bronzong 9 2.90%
Omastar 9 2.90%
Charizard 8 2.58%
Gallade 8 2.58%
Gliscor 8 2.58%
Jellicent 8 2.58%
Marowak 8 2.58%
Vanilluxe 8 2.58%
Azumarill 7 2.26%
Clefable 7 2.26%
Lanturn 7 2.26%
Electivire 6 1.94%
Haxorus 6 1.94%
Krookodile 6 1.94%
Slowbro 6 1.94%
Tentacruel 6 1.94%
Alakazam 5 1.61%
Ambipom 5 1.61%
Lucario 5 1.61%
Medicham 5 1.61%
Sigilyph 5 1.61%
Skarmory 5 1.61%
Swellow 5 1.61%
Wobbuffet 5 1.61%
Aerodactyl 4 1.29%
Camerupt 4 1.29%
Cloyster 4 1.29%
Flygon 4 1.29%
Gardevoir 4 1.29%
Heracross 4 1.29%
Machamp 4 1.29%
Mamoswine 4 1.29%
Porygon-Z 4 1.29%
Shiftry 4 1.29%
Yanmega 4 1.29%

LC:

Spoiler

All Teams Total Pokemon Total Teams
  2904 484
Pokemon Raw Usage Percentage
Misdreavus 297 61.36%
Mienfoo 248 51.24%
Ferroseed 211 43.60%
Vullaby 178 36.78%
Timburr 171 35.33%
Porygon 133 27.48%
Onix 105 21.69%
Chinchou 103 21.28%
Clamperl 89 18.39%
Munchlax 77 15.91%
Bronzor 75 15.50%
Dwebble 72 14.88%
Magnemite 72 14.88%
Diglett 61 12.60%
Frillish 59 12.19%
Staryu 59 12.19%
Gastly 53 10.95%
Ponyta 53 10.95%
Elekid 50 10.33%
Grimer 42 8.68%
Hippopotas 39 8.06%
Tentacool 39 8.06%
Abra 36 7.44%
Taillow 36 7.44%
Meowth 35 7.23%
Drilbur 30 6.20%
Rufflet 27 5.58%
Axew 23 4.75%
Wynaut 22 4.55%
Omanyte 22 4.55%
Pawniard 21 4.34%
Koffing 20 4.13%
Shellder 19 3.93%
Larvesta 18 3.72%
Trapinch 17 3.51%
Venonat 15 3.10%
Lileep 13 2.69%
Voltorb 13 2.69%
Yamask 13 2.69%
Archen 11 2.27%
Solosis 11 2.27%
Cubone 10 2.07%
Drifloon 9 1.86%
Zorua 8 1.65%
Darumaka 8 1.65%
Lickitung 7 1.45%
Ducklett 7 1.45%
Krabby 7 1.45%
Natu 7 1.45%
Teddiursa 6 1.24%
Carvanha 6 1.24%
Doduo 6 1.24%
Cottonee 5 1.03%
Mantyke 5 1.03%
Wailmer 5 1.03%
Zubat 5 1.03%

 

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This month we will be allowing the community to get involved in the discussion prior to the votes being made, usually this is done over a weekend but I will be busy this weekend so we will be doing it a bit ahead of schedule.  You are free to participate in the discussion leading up to the member of the TC voting, and try and sway any decisions, or potentially bring something up if you feel something is worth of discussion.

 

Normal discussion thread rules apply.

 

This is the second month in a cycle and as such will use the 1.7 down 6.7 up, so, nothing is moving via usage this month. Discuss away.

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OU meta is so centralized in togekiss counter + 5 mons there is problem there.

 

That explains the increase in the use of ttar and magnezone.

 

I think togekiss ban could open a diverse meta where pokes like gallade and others could be havin even more participation in ou.

Edited by Takens
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1 hour ago, Takens said:

OU meta is so centralized in togekiss counter + 5 mons there is problem there.

 

That explains the increase in the use of ttar and magnezone.

 

I think togekiss ban could open a diverse meta where pokes like gallade and others could be havin even more participation in ou.

Ttar usage rose only 0.37% since last month and is a 1.93% drop since February

Zone did rise 4.4% though, but I think it's mostly related to Duggy sinking deeper into UU and the paranoia around it cooling down.

 

Edit: My bad I was comparing April>May not May>June TTar rose a 1.27% and Zone a 0.70%.

Edited by suigin
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17 minutes ago, suigin said:

Ttar usage rose only 0.37% since last month and is a 1.93% drop since February

Zone did rise 4.4% though, but I think it's mostly related to Duggy sinking deeper into UU and the paranoia around it cooling down.

i believe dugtrio since the nerf is no that much useful for uu, but i mean testing banning for a month togekiss would bring out more cores like mantine/hippodown allow stall without having to rely in something like timid milotic or careful aerodactyl. I think this will only make the meta a little more variable than just centralizing in that poke with such a cancerous strategy.

 

This poke can go into any kind of team without having to fear much as the one against it i mean most popular sets on togekiss is scarf,nasty plot bulky or sub togekiss. and trust me is not fun playing against any of them.

Edited by Takens
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17 minutes ago, Takens said:

i believe dugtrio since the nerf is no that much useful for uu, but i mean testing banning for a month togekiss would bring out more cores like mantine/hippodown allow stall without having to rely in something like timid milotic or careful aerodactyl. I think this will only make the meta a little more variable than just centralizing in that poke with such a cancerous strategy.

 

This poke can go into any kind of team without having to fear much as the one against it i mean most popular sets on togekiss is scarf,nasty plot bulky or sub togekiss. and trust me is not fun playing against any of them.

If anything Togekiss is forcing a bit more variety into defensive teams instead of the classic Blissey/Chansey (since updates) + Mantine/bulky Milotic + Gliscor/Hippowdon + Skarmory/Ferrothorn + Reuniclus/Cofagrigus (since updates) + Tentacruel teams we had at the start of Unova. Hell you can still run most of these and replace something for a kiss check or counter to stop it.

Quote

is not fun playing against any of them.

Neither is playing against stall but we aren't banning stall mons.

 

Anyways we already discussed Togekiss to death, we had 3 months to work with it, a mon which trapped and destroyed a lot of its checks and counters was added into the meta and it didn't affect it much, it's not getting banned.

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Anyway, could we test scraggy in LC?

While people claimed it swept the whole meta after a dd before, that is quite not true. For starters, its forced to flinch those fighting mons (And mienfoo + timburr are used everywhere). Secondly it either loses moxie, or needs rng to get rid of those burns and paralyzes that it sure doesnt enjoy.

Now, since counter is rng based (Not in the favor of scraggy), lets mention checks:

-Scarf brave birders - Good in general in a fighting meta + hit misdreavus

- Timburr: Cant exactly safely counter but is a nice check to it (Assuming +1 atk +1 speed scraggy already)

- Scarf mienfoo.

Acrobactics larvesta- this can actually counter unless scraggy has a rock move.

etc etc.

You might say: Oh but scraggy can use bulk up too. 

Yes, it can. But dd is by far the most destructive set and in a tier where mienfoo is used above 50%, you wont get away with bulk up that easily.

As a bonus, it would reduce that unhealthy misdreavus spam.

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4 hours ago, suigin said:

If anything Togekiss is forcing a bit more variety into defensive teams instead of the classic Blissey/Chansey (since updates) + Mantine/bulky Milotic + Gliscor/Hippowdon + Skarmory/Ferrothorn + Reuniclus/Cofagrigus (since updates) + Tentacruel teams we had at the start of Unova. Hell you can still run most of these and replace something for a kiss check or counter to stop it.

Neither is playing against stall but we aren't banning stall mons.

Ok, so the reason to keep togekiss in the meta is just to not let people play stall anymore imo this is kindda sad dude forcing stall players to run gimmicks to stop this thing just because you don't that playstyle.

 

4 hours ago, suigin said:

If anything Togekiss is forcing a bit more variety into defensive teams instead of the classic Blissey/Chansey (since updates) + Mantine/bulky Milotic + Gliscor/Hippowdon + Skarmory/Ferrothorn + Reuniclus/Cofagrigus (since updates) + Tentacruel teams we had at the start of Unova. Hell you can still run most of these and replace something for a kiss check or counter to stop it.

Neither is playing against stall but we aren't banning stall mons.

 

Anyways we already discussed Togekiss to death, we had 3 months to work with it, a mon which trapped and destroyed a lot of its checks and counters was added into the meta and it didn't affect it much, it's not getting banned.

You forgot the other reason why that mon that trapped and destroyed a lot of its checks was its buffs, i basically don't see any problem for this mon to be in bl 1 atleast if you don't want to deal with him just like you don't want to deal with stall. lol

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On 5/27/2019 at 4:32 AM, Munya said:

Misdreavus   61.36%

 

4 hours ago, pachima said:

Anyway, could we test scraggy in LC?

While people claimed it swept the whole meta after a dd before, that is quite not true. For starters, its forced to flinch those fighting mons (And mienfoo + timburr are used everywhere). Secondly it either loses moxie, or needs rng to get rid of those burns and paralyzes that it sure doesnt enjoy.

Now, since counter is rng based (Not in the favor of scraggy), lets mention checks:

-Scarf brave birders - Good in general in a fighting meta + hit misdreavus

- Timburr: Cant exactly safely counter but is a nice check to it (Assuming +1 atk +1 speed scraggy already)

- Scarf mienfoo.

Acrobactics larvesta- this can actually counter unless scraggy has a rock move.

etc etc.

You might say: Oh but scraggy can use bulk up too. 

Yes, it can. But dd is by far the most destructive set and in a tier where mienfoo is used above 50%, you wont get away with bulk up that easily.

As a bonus, it would reduce that unhealthy misdreavus spam.

Yes

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10 hours ago, Munya said:

Is it a problem though

Yeah lol, tagged butler because he is more passionate about it, but forgot he’s banned.  But literally there’s like 2 counters and 1 is SABLEYE. 

Edited by Lvkee
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1 hour ago, Lvkee said:

Yeah lol, tagged butler because he is more passionate about it, but forgot he’s banned.  But literally there’s like 2 counters and 1 is SABLEYE. 

Let me list more counters for it (And I dont care if you find them unviable cuz you just mentioned sableye)

-Bulky Leafeon (best bibarel counter also)

-Musharna

-Durant (Needs bulky but its useful for other stuff aka ambipoms)

-scyther

-Pinsir

 

While some are shaky at best, all these can counter all gallade viable sets at full health. For specific sets, there are even more smh.

Checks: A lot of stuff over 80 speed.

 

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Gallade:

Spoiler

I don't believe Gallade is banworthy. It has counters in NU. Ya, there aren't many walls that can counter it, but that's fine. If it could be walled easily, it would not be a threat. Having a threat that can beat the two most used walls in the tier (steelix and golbat) is a good thing. 

 

Sableye, Dusknoir, Slowbro and Scyther are all decent walls in NU and at countering Gallade. Sableye is also not a joke. It got great immunities that allows it to be useful against offensive teams with banded mons. It's also a very decent spin blocker agaisnt more stally teams. 

Gallade is also not that fast and shadow sneak is not the greatest priority move. It's not that hard to revenge kill it. Charizard spec, Scarf Braviary, Scyther, Golbat with speed investment, Kangaskhan, Ambipom, Swellow, Ursaring, etc. The list goes on and I'm not even considering the more gimmicky acrobatic or illumise stuff.

Scraggy:

Spoiler

 

Scraggy was utterly broken. It was sweeping with little to no support. I'm all for wall larvesta and gimmicky stuff in general, but Acrobatic Larvesta, idk I just don't see it. There aren't really any walls that can stop Scraggy. The only version of Mienfoo that can survive Scraggy is Impish Mienfoo and realistically Impish Mienfoo isn't played with High Jump Kick, it's played with Drain Punch. Mienfoo switches on Scraggy, Scraggy does DD. Scraggy then does Zen Headbutt or High Jump Kick, Mienfoo prays for a miss or no flinch and then does Drain Punch which doesn't kill and doesn't heal back enough to survive Scraggy's next attack (16+16 > 21+18/2). 

 

Misdreavus having high usage is not a good reason to unban a broken pokemon.

 

 

Edited by gbwead
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Idk if the togekiss discussion is gonna happen probably not but key points are these:

 

togekiss is toxic on the meta by destroyng lots of playstyles, bulk,speed and movesetting is pretty big. Sub togekiss kills most of its counter, scarf togekiss rekts most of HO teams or atleast from 1-2 pokes. healbell+soft+air slash kills stall easyly. Idk there is not a single core in OU to stop a togekiss and be able to play balanced.

 

"if you can't wall it outspeed it was something we used last gen" as this doesn't apply anymore to this that poke will get on sub and rekt you through out the match slowly.

 

God damn TC togekiss is not good for this metta until we get good weapons against that thing. meta is not prepared for togekiss unless you only want a meta with 2 playstyles being HO and screens. 

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2 hours ago, Takens said:

Idk if the togekiss discussion is gonna happen probably not but key points are these:

 

togekiss is toxic on the meta by destroyng lots of playstyles, bulk,speed and movesetting is pretty big. Sub togekiss kills most of its counter, scarf togekiss rekts most of HO teams or atleast from 1-2 pokes. healbell+soft+air slash kills stall easyly. Idk there is not a single core in OU to stop a togekiss and be able to play balanced.

 

"if you can't wall it outspeed it was something we used last gen" as this doesn't apply anymore to this that poke will get on sub and rekt you through out the match slowly.

 

God damn TC togekiss is not good for this metta until we get good weapons against that thing. meta is not prepared for togekiss unless you only want a meta with 2 playstyles being HO and screens. 

Dont' need ban togekiss IMO, we just need more tools to deal with it :)

YES ZAPDOS I AM TALKING ABOUT YOU, WHEN @Kyu

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15 minutes ago, Munya said:

Please stay on topic of the current tiers/changes, thank you.  Adding new pokemon is out of the scope of this discussion.

Then what's the way to resolve this problem until the new mons are added? what do you suggest dear @Munya?

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