Jump to content
  • 4

Allow all pokémon


Cacha

Question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
33 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

I GM'd this game for the better part of 6 years, so lecturing me about anything related to this game is pretty dumb. Especially considering I ran Support for the majority of my time. Not to mention that when people who know more about comp than me are agreeing with me, you are wrong.

 

What's funny is that you ignore that you can't directly trade Battle Points, but I guess since you no longer need money then money doesn't exist to you. That's like saying, "I don't drink water so water doesn't exist." It still exists whether or not you use it. Pokeyen is the currency on which EVERYTHING in game is valued. Battle Points are equated to Pokeyen for purposes of trading anything. To say otherwise shows you don't fully understand the economic ecosystem and only further proves your lack of knowledge of the mechanics. It's quite ridiculous for you to say that you no longer need money. You clearly don't do comp and spend your days farming Battle Frontier if this is the case. In which case, you are merely a broker for people who don't have the resources of time to farm themselves.

 

While you may not need them or want to use them, other players would. You argue that they could simply be excluded from PvE and PvP, but then you don't answer my question as to what purpose they would serve in that capacity. You turn the rarest Pokemon in canon into glorified trophies for the sake of completing the Pokedex. We ignore shinies, because while they are incredibly rare in game, they aren't something really touched on in canon. So in this instance, you now allow players access to equipment they aren't allowed to use. Do you know what that will do? It will confuse and frustrate new players who haven't yet learned about the game. It makes the churn rate of the game itself go up because some won't even bother and simply quit. Congrats, you've killed a game.

 

That's all well and good, but they still exist. Just because you don't use them, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Stop ignoring stuff you don't use.

 

Wow, let's ignore the plethora of online IV calcs, which were used for quite some time here, that will show you that information. Breeding is easier in game because you don't have to sacrifice the parents to get a single egg, once you have your formula down you just let them sit in Daycare to crank out eggs endlessly. You can't do that here. Here you have to farm up everything you need for each iteration of breeding. This means you need at least one of the desired species and a Ditto with a nature and IVs you want to pass for each step of the way. You also need money for braces to guarantee IVs you need pass, everstones, ability pills if you get the wrong ability, and guaranteeing gender if you want to go that route. That all requires time and effort in some form. Either by farming Battle Points as you do, or farming up the species and money to do it. Breeding here requires more effort than base games. The only thing that is easier here is knowing which IVs will pass because you can guarantee them and see the results before you commit. This is not something you can do in the base games.

 

Ha, no they aren't. They do, by nature, make things easier for those who do use them. We aren't talking capturing other Pokemon with them because there are utility Pokemon for that purpose. Trying to capture other Pokemon with a legendary is like throwing a nuke on your target when a single shot would do the trick. It's overkill and not necessary at all.

 

You have to exclude remakes because those take place at the same time as originals but have updated mechanics to allow access to older gen species on newer systems.

 

Ok, so Mewtwo there are two of. The one in the first two movies and one in Genesect Awakens.

Rayquaza, there are two of because there is a normal and a shiny in movies.

 

Exclude Hoopa Unbound because that one is just a glorified Legend showcase to sell more merch.

 

So I will yield that point to you, but even still you have to consider PokeMMO being its own universe. In which case the devs only want one of them.

 

Arceus has straight 120 which is cool, but Mewtwo and Rayquaza are 680, same with Dialga, Palkia, Reshiram, Zekrom, Ho-oh, Giratina, and Lugia. Groudon and Kyogre are base stat total of 670. There are very few Pokemon that aren't legends with those same totals. It's hard to argue they aren't OP given every single one has its own Signature move that is OP as hell. In addition to access to a large movepool and OP abilities unique to them. Short of nerfing their stats, there isn't much to do that would make them not Uber.

How do you discuss something healthily when all opinions are taken out of context and try to refute them one by one? xD. I respect that you have developed and dedicated so much time to this community and to its proper functioning, also its knowledge about the game and its different franchises, but still you are not touching key point when answering me, and you continue to rely on stipulations or assumptions based on possibilities that are really unreal, Salamence and Conkeldurr can easily burst any legendary at a stroke. This "exclusivity" was lost in the 4th gen, the number of legendary today is huge and not all are uber, many are really very bad Pokémon for the comp. With regard to money, well, you can deny it, I don't know what to tell you, I personally don't use money, I capture my breeds, I get my eternal stones and the brasales and items I buy them with pb that I earn in pvp, and the items with life orb ect if they are interchangeable in the gtl, with what you can make money if you want it without spending more money, moreover, to raise a 4x30 pokémon with natu it costs me around 30k that I spend on choosing the sex of the pokémon , and I can sell it at 350 and raise another 6 to continue building strategies and keep getting PB in pvp. And no, I don't play in front of battle, that was in the gameboy.

Link to comment
  • 0
8 minutes ago, Cacha said:

This "exclusivity" was lost in the 4th gen, the number of legendary today is huge

Not to get too involved in the discussion, but I keep seeing this particular point being brought up (by numerous people, not just yourself).

So I ask; so what?

 

Just because there are lots of legendaries does not mean that they shouldn't be considered 'legendary' as their name/implementation in design would imply.

Individually, they're still legendary - you might personally think that having too many legendary species makes them less special, and you would be entitled to your opinion and some would agree with you - but it's besides the point, they're still legendary and they're still largely exclusive on some level.

 

It is true that there are multiple of certain legendary species, some years ago I made a rather in-depth list which has since been lost to time; however on an individual level, these species are still incredibly scarce.

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, Cacha said:

How do you discuss something healthily when all opinions are taken out of context and try to refute them one by one? xD. I respect that you have developed and dedicated so much time to this community and to its proper functioning, also its knowledge about the game and its different franchises, but still you are not touching key point when answering me, and you continue to rely on stipulations or assumptions based on possibilities that are really unreal, Salamence and Conkeldurr can easily burst any legendary at a stroke. This "exclusivity" was lost in the 4th gen, the number of legendary today is huge and not all are uber, many are really very bad Pokémon for the comp. With regard to money, well, you can deny it, I don't know what to tell you, I personally don't use money, I capture my breeds, I get my eternal stones and the brasales and items I buy them with pb that I earn in pvp, and the items with life orb ect if they are interchangeable in the gtl, with what you can make money if you want it without spending more money, moreover, to raise a 4x30 pokémon with natu it costs me around 30k that I spend on choosing the sex of the pokémon , and I can sell it at 350 and raise another 6 to continue building strategies and keep getting PB in pvp. And no, I don't play in front of battle, that was in the gameboy.

 Discussing something even when someone is disagreeing with you is healthy no matter if that person agrees with you or not and its not like you had much context to each point anyway because unlike you and I Xela isn't just quoting the whole post. He is "refuting" each point one by one as you've already stated. Saying that Salamence and Conk can "burst" (I assume you mean something like beat) any legendary with a stroke is laughable considering how Conk has useless spdef and is slow whilst Salamance is just like any other generic dragon legendary yet worse. - Salamance is called a pseudo legendary for a reason. 

 

Lastly you also talk about many Legendaries not being in uber but in your original post you said that you wanted to use  them in uber anyway. But either way, even in the lower tiers it wouldn't be that simple due to so many mons not having HA's so  most Lengends would just end up moving back up the tiers anyway. Great Uxie is in OU and at the same time farming for money is even more effortless as it was before and now any new player can start grinding without investing any time or money in doing so. 

 

 

Edited by Etozuri
Link to comment
  • 0
2 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

 So I will yield that point to you, but even still you have to consider PokeMMO being its own universe. In which case the devs only want one of them.

Again, X/Y/ORAS proved that there’s multiple universes; in those games they went over the “ultimate weapon” and the universe that it wasn’t fired(Red/Blue-Black/White) and the universe that it was fired(X/Y/ORAS). And you can transfer Pokémon between those games, hence trading Pokémon across universes. But that’s beside the point.

 

2 hours ago, XelaKebert said:

Arceus has straight 120 which is cool, but Mewtwo and Rayquaza are 680, same with Dialga, Palkia, Reshiram, Zekrom, Ho-oh, Giratina, and Lugia. Groudon and Kyogre are base stat total of 670. There are very few Pokemon that aren't legends with those same totals. It's hard to argue they aren't OP given every single one has its own Signature move that is OP as hell. In addition to access to a large movepool and OP abilities unique to them. Short of nerfing their stats, there isn't much to do that would make them not Uber.

But like I said, Arceus is 120 all-around.

 

The other legendaries are significantly more balanced. Like Mewtwo having pretty frail defense for its strong Attack, and Lugia having less Attack for its major bulk.

 

But here’s where the big difference comes in:

Arceus can only really be beaten if its set up upon(which is impossible if it is used as a lead), and its ability to change to every type along with its vast moveset gives it such a vast number of sets that can be used. So in other words, only another Arceus or one of the aforementioned Uber legends can beat Arceus. So it not being perma-keep is understandable, and I could see it being a KotH Pokemon.

 

On the other hand, the other Uber legends can be beaten without setup needed.

Like a Froslass can outspeed and one shot Rayquaza with Ice Beam. Or Sableye can completely wall Mewtwo since it is immune to M2’s deadliest attacks.

So having these legends perma-keep wouldn’t hurt the difficulty as bad.

 

But then again, it’s like you mentioned above. We’ll need to wait until dungeons come closer and discuss it at the competitive threads.

But for now, the only legendary I’m leaving off the table is Arceus.

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, BoltBlades12 said:

Like a Froslass can outspeed and one shot Rayquaza with Ice Beam. Or Sableye can completely wall Mewtwo since it is immune to M2’s deadliest attacks.

The problem is you are basically saying that each player will have to bring one or both of those Pokemon to a tournament in order to be viable. That's the very definition of Uber. When you either have to run a certain Pokemon or build specifically to counter that Pokemon, it's Uber. Especially if you give in that they can either defeat or wall out a significant portion of the meta. They are Uber by the very definition and as such would be unhealthy for the game if players were allowed to keep them permanently.

 

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, BoltBlades12 said:

But like I said, Arceus is 120 all-around.

 

The other legendaries are significantly more balanced. Like Mewtwo having pretty frail defense for its strong Attack, and Lugia having less Attack for its major bulk.

 

But here’s where the big difference comes in:

Arceus can only really be beaten if its set up upon(which is impossible if it is used as a lead), and its ability to change to every type along with its vast moveset gives it such a vast number of sets that can be used. So in other words, only another Arceus or one of the aforementioned Uber legends can beat Arceus. So it not being perma-keep is understandable, and I could see it being a KotH Pokemon.

 

On the other hand, the other Uber legends can be beaten without setup needed.

Like a Froslass can outspeed and one shot Rayquaza with Ice Beam. Or Sableye can completely wall Mewtwo since it is immune to M2’s deadliest attacks.

So having these legends perma-keep wouldn’t hurt the difficulty as bad.

 

But then again, it’s like you mentioned above. We’ll need to wait until dungeons come closer and discuss it at the competitive threads.

But for now, the only legendary I’m leaving off the table is Arceus.

I'm honestly completely bamboozled by this whole post. You state Arceus as by far the least balanced Uber, but that's not even true. It's probably the most versatile pokemon that exists, sure, but it's definitely not the best. I'm not even sure that Arceus is considered the strongest Uber threat in any gen, it's just considered an Uber staple because of how good it is at filling roles in your team, giving Arceus pretty good usage. However, the best pokemon? Not really.

 

In reality, Kyogre was the defacto king of ubers until ~gen 6, since it's water STABs (especially Water Spout) are so absurdly strong that the number of things that can come on it are extremely limited, especially when coupled with how unbearable Drizzle is. Having some stats that are lower isn't a weakness, specialization is valuable, and every extra point in speed or attack/sp.att is the difference between "Easily counterable/checkable" and "Unstoppable killing machine that shreds lives". Stuff like Deoxys-A is the pinnacle of this; It has such obvious, glaring weaknesses, but it's so effective at doing the thing it's good at that it doesn't matter. Naturally, it hasn't seen too much relevance in Ubers in quite a while despite this, because Uber threats are that strong.

 

Hell, Genesect is considered the best Scarfer in Gen 5 Ubers, and one of the top threats in that metagame. This probably wouldn't be super intuitive if you're basing the threat of a pokemon based on their stats/typing alone, but there's a lot more to pokemon than that, and you're vastly underestimating the Ubers if you can say stuff like "oh, Mewtwo has bad defenses, but good attack". Not only is this reasoning shallow, it's also straight up false; Mewtwo is kind of fragile compared to other Ubers, sure, but it's not fragile at all compared to normal pokemon. Mewtwo has 106/90/90 defenses. For perspective, Dragonite has 91/95/100. Mewtwo has more bulk than Dragonite does, and Dragonite is definitely not fragile.

 

Not only is Mewtwo not actually fragile, Sableye walling Mewtwo is also straight up not true. Being immune to Psystrike/Psychic and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast is neat and all, but Sableye straight up just doesn't have enough bulk for even neutral, non-STAB attacks to not be threatening:

 

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 71-84 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

Being straight up 2HKO'd, even at full HP, if there's any hazards up is pretty far from being a counter, much less completely walling it. Even if we assume we're talking about Prankster Sableye (for some reason) so that it can spam Recover for Life Orb chip, it's still more likely to get Frozen and lose the 1v1 than successfully stall it out. Of course, if it's not LO and is like, Specs or something, LO chip isn't even an out. In the case of a Specs set, that also means Mewtwo straight up wins basically all the time.

 

The Froslass example is pretty ridiculous too. Yeah, things that outspeed a threat and can hit it with a 4x effective move probably kill it, what's your point? Rayquaza has Dragon Dance and is very good at using it, and Froslass can't switch in, like, at all. Just because something can outspeed and KO something doesn't mean that it's a good answer, by that logic, anything slow and with a 4x weakness is atrocious, but Ferrothorn's been amazing since the day it was conceived. The fact a straight up regular Charizard can come on Ferrothorn and OHKO doesn't make Ferro bad, just like how Froslass outspeeding and KOing Rayquaza doesn't mean Rayquaza is easily answered by non-uber pokemon.

 

Generally speaking, a lot of the iconic legendaries aren't balanced. They aren't even balanced in respect to each other, much less most regular Pokemon. Are there a few lower tier pokemon that can kind of check/counter some Uber pokemon? Sure. Shedinja can come in on most Kyogres, and Kyogre is completely ridiculous. Does that mean they're balanced? jajaja no. What are you gonna do, run a team of low-tier pokemon that can answer very specific uber threats? Of course you're not gonna do that, you have 6 team slots, you don't have room to run your Shedinja/Sableye/Froslass core. Maybe you'll answer 1 or 2 ubers, but your opponent has opted to run a full team of actual threats, and you've just run a few pokemon that can kind of sort of maybe answer a pokemon they may or may not even be running. You're just going to get steamrolled, and there's not much to do about it.

 

The fact of the matter is, you are greatly underestimating the vast difference in strength between your average Uber and your average OU pokemon, not even counting UU/NU/Not even worthU Pokemon. If all ubers were released and legal at once, there's so many dangerous threats that even if a low tier pokemon can answer 1 or 2 Ubers, role compression is so vital that it still won't be worth using. Because of this if a pokemon isn't Uber itself, it probably isn't worth using in Ubers, unless it fills an incredibly specific and useful niche that an Uber can't fill.

 

I could go on about this basically forever, but the point is that your analysis of the strengths/weaknesses of various Ubers is fundamentally wrong, and the way you're justifying the fact that these pokemon aren't all powerful is also fundamentally wrong. Sure, maybe a few specific "low tiers" could answer a single uber, but we're not talking about a single uber, we're talking about ~20, each of which you probably need some kind of answer for.

 

tl;dr: kyogre strong???? large if factual

Link to comment
  • 0
11 minutes ago, Senile said:

I'm honestly completely bamboozled by this whole post. You state Arceus as by far the least balanced Uber, but that's not even true. It's probably the most versatile pokemon that exists, sure, but it's definitely not the best. I'm not even sure that Arceus is considered the strongest Uber threat in any gen, it's just considered an Uber staple because of how good it is at filling roles in your team, giving Arceus pretty good usage. However, the best pokemon? Not really.

 

In reality, Kyogre was the defacto king of ubers until ~gen 6, since it's water STABs (especially Water Spout) are so absurdly strong that the number of things that can come on it are extremely limited, especially when coupled with how unbearable Drizzle is. Having some stats that are lower isn't a weakness, specialization is valuable, and every extra point in speed or attack/sp.att is the difference between "Easily counterable/checkable" and "Unstoppable killing machine that shreds lives". Stuff like Deoxys-A is the pinnacle of this; It has such obvious, glaring weaknesses, but it's so effective at doing the thing it's good at that it doesn't matter. Naturally, it hasn't seen too much relevance in Ubers in quite a while despite this, because Uber threats are that strong.

 

Hell, Genesect is considered the best Scarfer in Gen 5 Ubers, and one of the top threats in that metagame. This probably wouldn't be super intuitive if you're basing the threat of a pokemon based on their stats/typing alone, but there's a lot more to pokemon than that, and you're vastly underestimating the Ubers if you can say stuff like "oh, Mewtwo has bad defenses, but good attack". Not only is this reasoning shallow, it's also straight up false; Mewtwo is kind of fragile compared to other Ubers, sure, but it's not fragile at all compared to normal pokemon. Mewtwo has 106/90/90 defenses. For perspective, Dragonite has 91/95/100. Mewtwo has more bulk than Dragonite does, and Dragonite is definitely not fragile.

 

Not only is Mewtwo not actually fragile, Sableye walling Mewtwo is also straight up not true. Being immune to Psystrike/Psychic and Aura Sphere/Focus Blast is neat and all, but Sableye straight up just doesn't have enough bulk for even neutral, non-STAB attacks to not be threatening:

 

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 71-84 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

Being straight up 2HKO'd, even at full HP, if there's any hazards up is pretty far from being a counter, much less completely walling it. Even if we assume we're talking about Prankster Sableye (for some reason) so that it can spam Recover for Life Orb chip, it's still more likely to get Frozen and lose the 1v1 than successfully stall it out. Of course, if it's not LO and is like, Specs or something, LO chip isn't even an out. In the case of a Specs set, that also means Mewtwo straight up wins basically all the time.

 

The Froslass example is pretty ridiculous too. Yeah, things that outspeed a threat and can hit it with a 4x effective move probably kill it, what's your point? Rayquaza has Dragon Dance and is very good at using it, and Froslass can't switch in, like, at all. Just because something can outspeed and KO something doesn't mean that it's a good answer, by that logic, anything slow and with a 4x weakness is atrocious, but Ferrothorn's been amazing since the day it was conceived. The fact a straight up regular Charizard can come on Ferrothorn and OHKO doesn't make Ferro bad, just like how Froslass outspeeding and KOing Rayquaza doesn't mean Rayquaza is easily answered by non-uber pokemon.

 

Generally speaking, a lot of the iconic legendaries aren't balanced. They aren't even balanced in respect to each other, much less most regular Pokemon. Are there a few lower tier pokemon that can kind of check/counter some Uber pokemon? Sure. Shedinja can come in on most Kyogres, and Kyogre is completely ridiculous. Does that mean they're balanced? jajaja no. What are you gonna do, run a team of low-tier pokemon that can answer very specific uber threats? Of course you're not gonna do that, you have 6 team slots, you don't have room to run your Shedinja/Sableye/Froslass core. Maybe you'll answer 1 or 2 ubers, but your opponent has opted to run a full team of actual threats, and you've just run a few pokemon that can kind of sort of maybe answer a pokemon they may or may not even be running. You're just going to get steamrolled, and there's not much to do about it.

 

The fact of the matter is, you are greatly underestimating the vast difference in strength between your average Uber and your average OU pokemon, not even counting UU/NU/Not even worthU Pokemon. If all ubers were released and legal at once, there's so many dangerous threats that even if a low tier pokemon can answer 1 or 2 Ubers, role compression is so vital that it still won't be worth using. Because of this if a pokemon isn't Uber itself, it probably isn't worth using in Ubers, unless it fills an incredibly specific and useful niche that an Uber can't fill.

 

I could go on about this basically forever, but the point is that your analysis of the strengths/weaknesses of various Ubers is fundamentally wrong, and the way you're justifying the fact that these pokemon aren't all powerful is also fundamentally wrong. Sure, maybe a few specific "low tiers" could answer a single uber, but we're not talking about a single uber, we're talking about ~20, each of which you probably need some kind of answer for.

 

tl;dr: kyogre strong???? large if factual

As I said before, I will wait until dungeons come closer to finally being implemented and the topic of Legendaries is brought onto Competitive Alley(or whatever thread we will discuss this matter on).

I will make my full case then.

After all, we haven’t got sinnoh yet.

Link to comment
  • 0

 

I agree with your statements, the best way to know how the game will react to this is to look for an intelligent way to implement it, I am sorry if at any time I was rude or something like that, I read each of your opinions at the bottom of the canyon and I tried to understand what they were trying to communicate. I look forward to the moment the game goes through that moment, meanwhile, we have sinnoh! :)

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, BoltBlades12 said:

As I said before, I will wait until dungeons come closer to finally being implemented and the topic of Legendaries is brought onto Competitive Alley(or whatever thread we will discuss this matter on).

I will make my full case then.

After all, we haven’t got sinnoh yet.

If you can't out-argue the guy in charge of deciding what gets put into dungeons right now those uber legendaries won't ever be added.

Link to comment
  • 0

I think this thread has gone far enough.

 

PvP is not the only endgame activity, so simply banning Mewtwo and friends wouldn't even come close to resolving the issues that come with introducing them to the game in a permanently keepable form.

 

PvE is the main concern with these species. For us to disregard the economic and gameplay implications of giving players access to something significantly more powerful than anything they will ever face would be to give up on the concept of balancing as a whole. Although gym rematches are easy enough for endgame players with high quality parties that some are saying "who cares?", they are not where the game ends in terms of difficulty right now, and they certainly won't be in the future either.

 

If we released the uber legendary species, it would lead to a very severe case of power creep. They would either become the main threats to balance future content (dungeons, special events, etc) around, thus making it too hard for people who aren't using them, or that content would be too easy for the players who do use them if we balance the game around everyone else. Both of these options make the game worse, so it would be best not to put ourselves into such a position. Although we could restrict the usage of them in battles that are intended to be challenging, to give players something that they can't use in a meaningful way is terrible game design and something that we have no interest in doing.

 

We're very likely to release the more balanced legendary species such as the birds and beasts in a keepable form via dungeons, but not the ones that would invalidate any form of game balance. We may find ways to distribute dex data for the ones that would, but we're not going to do it in as destructive of a manner as letting players keep them forever.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.