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Dibz

Shuffle tournament matchups every round

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4 hours ago, Dibz said:

It'd prevent people from scouting and you could just spectate for the sake of spectating. It'd improve the PvP aspect of the game a lot. I think it'd be a really fair addition as well as a really fun one. 

i don't see any problem from getting scout if you know what counters your team. what you should have in mind what is the possible team your oponent is going to bring.

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2 hours ago, Takens said:

i don't see any problem from getting scout if you know what counters your team. what you should have in mind what is the possible team your oponent is going to bring.

Other than the simple fact that shuffling the bracket every round would be super fun, it'd also eliminate the disadvantage a lot of people have when they're either new to PvP or not particularly invested in a tier and therefore don't have 20 comps to choose from. And it encourages creative teambuilding and genuine thought put into the team you take to each round instead of just thinking of what'll beat your next opponent. 

Edited by Dibz

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3 hours ago, Takens said:

i don't see any problem from getting scout if you know what counters your team. what you should have in mind what is the possible team your oponent is going to bring.

There’s more skill and creativity involved in building a team that gives you a decent match up against the majority of the meta, than there is in creating a team which specifically counters your next opponent. Having to consider your opponent’s counter and your counter to their counter is a toxic cycle

 

If anything, counter-teaming can also work against you if you take it too far, so preventing the temptation entirely would be nothing but a benefit 

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3 hours ago, Takens said:

what you should have in mind what is the possible team your oponent is going to bring.

This is the real problem  that creates an unhealthy mentality upon teambuilding, not really the counterteaming itself.

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1 hour ago, Dibz said:

it'd also eliminate the disadvantage a lot of people have when they're either new to PvP or not particularly invested in a tier

being invested in a tier also means knowing what to bring when your opponent prefers certain mons. cteaming properly is a skill, it isnt as faceroll as people make it to be, because if it was people would do it. then theres the option of preparing several teams to choose from in avance, but people are lazy, me included, yet they think its easier to blame some bracket instead of their lack of effort.

 

i tried preparing for that throh invitiational thing SIA hosted and what i saw was this: theres people like sebat, who always run the same core, ALWAYS (at least in NU), yet he seems to be doing fine. then theres madara, who (idk if gb builds shit for the team or if hes doing it on his own, but it doesnt really matter anyways) has access to a lot of pretty unique NU teams, so gl cteaming that dude.

 

what i wanna say is, being a victim of the current bracket system is a choice. you´re free to put in the effort to not fall victim to it, if you dont, at least have the decency to not cry about it.

 

1 hour ago, Dibz said:

And it encourages creative teambuilding and genuine thought put into the team you take to each round instead of just thinking of what'll beat your next opponent.

im pretty sure that floatingd guy put a lot of effort and thought into building his screens trode + 5 set up mons team that made finals.

 

15 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

There’s more skill and creativity involved in building a team that gives you a decent match up against the majority of the meta, than there is in creating a team which specifically counters your next opponent. Having to consider your opponent’s counter and your counter to their counter is a toxic cycle

 

If anything, counter-teaming can also work against you if you take it too far, so preventing the temptation entirely would be nothing but a benefit 


how many times did cteam fail tho? we´ve all been there. we tried to cteam and it didnt work out and we wished we prepared teams in advance. a mixture of both is key i think. prep teams in advance and pick one that has a decent matchup vs the meta and what people like to bring. certain effort, but if people really wanna make it thats pretty much the price they gotta pay and it should be known by now.

 

just like i said, if cteaming works against you is your decision and only yours.

 

 

Edited by DrButler

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1 hour ago, DrButler said:

how many times did cteam fail tho? we´ve all been there. we tried to cteam and it didnt work out and we wished we prepared teams in advance. a mixture of both is key i think. prep teams in advance and pick one that has a decent matchup vs the meta and what people like to bring. certain effort, but if people really wanna make it thats pretty much the price they gotta pay and it should be known by now.

 

just like i said, if cteaming works against you is your decision and only yours.

 

 

i don't disagree that people should be using and picking from a list of premade teams in order to help prevent this, but just because there are ways around it doesn't mean it should happen. i don't see how it would be anything but a benefit to not know who your next opponent is and enter your next battle blindly - i personally think it would be a more accurate test of your ability to adapt and improvise during the battle if you didn't know anything about your opponent before you went in. it would certainly demonstrate a higher level of "skill" than spending literally 30 seconds going through each of your opponent's previous replays and screenshotting all of their team previews does. 

 

on that note, maybe team preview is a part of the problem. maybe it would make more sense to remove the previews from the replays and make them start when they both lead off. that way, people who depend on c-teaming for a good match up either need multiple people to help them or they risk taking a big chunk out of their 10 minute interval to get enough info. or maybe reducing the 10 minute interval would also help, who knows.

Edited by Zymogen

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30 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

i don't disagree that people should be using and picking from a list of premade teams in order to help prevent this, but just because there are ways around it doesn't mean it should happen.

i never said it should happen. i just dont see how it has any negative impact on tournaments.

 

both contenders can scout, both can adjust teams or go with prepared teams - both go into the match on equal terms. the fact they added preview even helps people who arent in AW or SIA scouting for themselves, cause its fast and easy, so theres even less points to argue against sorted and revealed brackets than there was back in the days.

 

54 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

i don't see how it would be anything but a benefit to not know who your next opponent is and enter your next battle blindly - i personally think it would be a more accurate test of your ability to adapt and improvise during the battle if you didn't know anything about your opponent before you went in.

how does cteaming hinder you from outplaying your opponent tho? cteams dont guarantee you free wins in any way, you still have to play better than your opponent.

 

i think you could also argue that blind and/or shuffled brackets promote less skill, because you can just run the same team every single round. you dont need several teams, you dont need to think about what your opponent might bring and how to adapt to it. building is a skill of good comp players, so being forced to build more often demands more skill, no?

 

58 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

that way, people who depend on c-teaming for a good match up

you let them be succesful with cteaming - they dont depend on good match ups, they depend on you not doing anything about it. what they rely on is you being passive and lazy, nothing else. the way you put it and i used to do the same, so its not meant as harsh as it may sound, you make them the bad player, cause "Hehe, they need to cteam", but its you who lacks the ability to adapt. you are letting them prey on you. stop being a victim and do something about it, its in your hands to not get cteamed or abuse the shit out of it.

 

imo every argument a la "ye, but why should it happen?" is another way to put "ye, but why am i forced to put in effort?". cteaming is an actual skill you´re still demonizing and sleeping on and as long as you demonize it, you wont be able to use it for your own good. that again is a choice tho, so pick.

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3 hours ago, Zymogen said:

Having to consider your opponent’s counter and your counter to their counter is a toxic cycle

This alone is the problem. The way the system currently is promotes this way of thinking when it shouldn´t.

Its not counterteaming itself, its how you know that counterteaming is possible.

Btw zymo, I agree with you, quoted just because this line pretty much sums it up nicely.

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its easier to focus on other people than actually getting your own stuff sorted, thus its even easier to make excuses. i dont see how your opponents team is any of your business when you prep several working teams or cores you can alter / choose between, but im over this making excuses bs. if you think the reason you´re not doing as good as others is the way brackets work right now im sorry for you and what im most sorry about is that i wasted time believing that bs myself.

 

i wonder what the arguments would be if brackets got shuffled tho. "give us unshuffled brackets back, i lost to cheese" "lucky match ups for my opponents all the time" "nobody builds for that".

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9 hours ago, Dibz said:

Other than the simple fact that shuffling the bracket every round would be super fun, it'd also eliminate the disadvantage a lot of people have when they're either new to PvP or not particularly invested in a tier and therefore don't have 20 comps to choose from. And it encourages creative teambuilding and genuine thought put into the team you take to each round instead of just thinking of what'll beat your next opponent. 

The thing i see bad on this argument is "don't have 20 comps to choose from" start investing inflation in this game makes it hard and people are being stupid lowering the prices even more makes it worst. If that's your argument i think it wouldn't be fair to the people that actually invested time farming and breeding comps because i mean we atleast have around 800 comps most of the people coming from 3rd gen.

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This is a good suggestion, but obviously most of the 20ish comp players wont like this. People can figure out for themselves why they like scouting so much. 

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41 minutes ago, Takens said:

The thing i see bad on this argument is "don't have 20 comps to choose from" start investing inflation in this game makes it hard and people are being stupid lowering the prices even more makes it worst. If that's your argument i think it wouldn't be fair to the people that actually invested time farming and breeding comps because i mean we atleast have around 800 comps most of the people coming from 3rd gen.

please takens, understand, you me and others that come from gen3, are a minority right now.

 

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At the very least they should stop putting all the byes on the bottom of the bracket and shuffle them. I get that this allows people to get a free spectate r1 but it also helps avoid someone getting to scout out all their matches w/o a care in the world. Keeping the bracket on a similar pace rather than lower bracket always waiting on top half to catch up and have extra time to scout/ c team

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10 hours ago, Mnemosyne said:

This is impossible to do since matches dont end at the same time. 

I don't see how it's impossible. The first two people to win a round could match up, or when a player advances to the next round, they'd be put in a random spot in next round's bracket. It'd work the same way it does now.

 

5 hours ago, Takens said:

The thing i see bad on this argument is "don't have 20 comps to choose from" start investing inflation in this game makes it hard and people are being stupid lowering the prices even more makes it worst. If that's your argument i think it wouldn't be fair to the people that actually invested time farming and breeding comps because i mean we atleast have around 800 comps most of the people coming from 3rd gen.

Yeah well it takes time for someone to build and invest in multiple comps, so I don't see why they should be put at an unnecessary advantage right off the bat. Especially if it's in a tier they don't make that many mons for.

 

7 hours ago, DrButler said:

its easier to focus on other people than actually getting your own stuff sorted, thus its even easier to make excuses. i dont see how your opponents team is any of your business when you prep several working teams or cores you can alter / choose between, but im over this making excuses bs. if you think the reason you´re not doing as good as others is the way brackets work right now im sorry for you and what im most sorry about is that i wasted time believing that bs myself.

 

i wonder what the arguments would be if brackets got shuffled tho. "give us unshuffled brackets back, i lost to cheese" "lucky match ups for my opponents all the time" "nobody builds for that".

I don't understand why you think shuffled brackets would cause issues or even why you think it shouldn't be a thing. I think it'd add another degree of fairness/RNG to tournaments and it'd be more fun making teams without knowing your exact opponent's playstyle. It's not making excuses as much as it is the time it takes to invest in making new cores and testing them out. It just means that even if you've got a knack for comp, you're probably not gonna make it far in tournaments until you're swimming in cash.

 

9 hours ago, DrButler said:

i think you could also argue that blind and/or shuffled brackets promote less skill, because you can just run the same team every single round. you dont need several teams, you dont need to think about what your opponent might bring and how to adapt to it. building is a skill of good comp players, so being forced to build more often demands more skill, no?

I disagree. Being forced to build every round to counter the possible counters to the team you used last round is a stupid idea. It doesn't encourage as much creativity as actually putting genuine thought into the team you take into each round and how you'd win against any possible opponent. Not only that but if you're a good player, shuffled brackets would be more fun when changing your team out in between rounds! But you're right, you can still use one team throughout a tournament, but unless you're an amazing player, that team will get stumped somewhere along the way.

 

11 hours ago, Zymogen said:

Having to consider your opponent’s counter and your counter to their counter is a toxic cycle

 

If anything, counter-teaming can also work against you if you take it too far, so preventing the temptation entirely would be nothing but a benefit 

Agreed.

 

10 hours ago, Zymogen said:

i don't disagree that people should be using and picking from a list of premade teams in order to help prevent this, but just because there are ways around it doesn't mean it should happen. i don't see how it would be anything but a benefit to not know who your next opponent is and enter your next battle blindly - i personally think it would be a more accurate test of your ability to adapt and improvise during the battle if you didn't know anything about your opponent before you went in. it would certainly demonstrate a higher level of "skill" than spending literally 30 seconds going through each of your opponent's previous replays and screenshotting all of their team previews does. 

Also this. I don't see anything bad that can come out of shuffling each round's bracket.

 

9 hours ago, DrButler said:

you let them be succesful with cteaming - they dont depend on good match ups, they depend on you not doing anything about it. what they rely on is you being passive and lazy, nothing else. the way you put it and i used to do the same, so its not meant as harsh as it may sound, you make them the bad player, cause "Hehe, they need to cteam", but its you who lacks the ability to adapt. you are letting them prey on you. stop being a victim and do something about it, its in your hands to not get cteamed or abuse the shit out of it.

 

imo every argument a la "ye, but why should it happen?" is another way to put "ye, but why am i forced to put in effort?". cteaming is an actual skill you´re still demonizing and sleeping on and as long as you demonize it, you wont be able to use it for your own good. that again is a choice tho, so pick.

As zymogen said: "preventing the temptation entirely would be nothing but a benefit". 

 

 

 

Tl;dr: Shuffled bracket is fair.

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people suck with the way it currently works and the same people will still suck if this goes through.

 

shouldnt waste my time like that, mb.

Edited by DrButler

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Today I decided to play a tour on a whim using my oldass matchmaking team everyone knows. In Round 2 I was matched vs someone who I haven't seen before in mm or tours (Making me deduce they haven't played for that long, ergo they haven't grinded for that long ergo they don't have much variation in comps) and I decided to spectate their replay for 1 turn. In that round, they used Taunt Aerodactyl with Volcarona in the back, so to adjust my 10 month old team I just put a mental herb on my lead suicide Skarm (Which normally runs another item) and threw their momentum into the garbage for the rest of our match by getting rocks up vs them anyways and eventually winning the game despite what would usually be a matchup disadvantage.

Felt dirty tbh. Sure my opponent could have "not used the same thing" or "watched me too and brought a magic coat Smeargle to hard counter Suicide Skarm" or some equally simple stuff, but the game shouldn't have this weird layer of intel ops that fucks with the synergy and dynamics of each team.

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If this isn't happening, at least take @pachima's suggestion and have fixed teams for a tournament. Should be easier to program. And I'm sure the PvP community would appreciate it, as well as those getting into competitive play 

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3 hours ago, Dibz said:

If this isn't happening, at least take @pachima's suggestion and have fixed teams for a tournament. Should be easier to program. And I'm sure the PvP community would appreciate it, as well as those getting into competitive play 

I think shuffling brackets every round is the way to go, imagine playing a match vs someone whose fixed team simply has an advantage over your fixed team by default and you just go into that match with a disadvantage knowing your options to deal with it are limited.

 

I agree that countering/general draft knowledge allows creativity and experience to shine, but the toxic counter loop it creates is not worth it imo. Team preview even made scouting way more efficient.

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