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[PSL XI] PokeMMO Super League Season 11 General Thread

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Just now, gbwead said:

Losing in the finals of a 32 players tournament is the equivalent of losing in the quarter finals of a CC and not getting any money. 

But it's not really a proper equivalent. Nowadays with the way automated tours'  signups happen, it's very likely in first round that you run into someone who is running Fly Charizard or you get a bye. You can also easily manage to get into the later stages of a tournament if you're lucky enough to have your bracket arranged in a manner where you constantly face lower tier players. In the previous system, having players register on forums to sign up for tours meant they'd be a lot more skillful (I don't really need to expand on this), and having a fewer number of players in a tour meant that you couldn't make finals without having to face a good player. 

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15 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

But it's not really a proper equivalent. Nowadays with the way automated tours'  signups happen, it's very likely in first round that you run into someone who is running Fly Charizard or you get a bye. You can also easily manage to get into the later stages of a tournament if you're lucky enough to have your bracket arranged in a manner where you constantly face lower tier players. In the previous system, having players register on forums to sign up for tours meant they'd be a lot more skillful (I don't really need to expand on this), and having a fewer number of players in a tour meant that you couldn't make finals without having to face a good player. 

Ya I heard that before and it's pretty much BS; back then, you could only sign up through the forum which mean you could only face the exact same few people on which you base your reference of what is skillful and what isn't. I realise old players get nostalgic about their old days in the competitive scene, but that doesn't mean the competition was more intense before.  The mere fact that I was one of the players in one of these tournaments despite having not a single dubs comp should show that there were byes back then too.

 

Today, players can test out their teams and comps regularly in matchmaking and tournaments. The meta is very defined and not some vague idea. When you face someone, that person is familiar with the format played which was not the case before.

 

Also, we're talking about fuckign doubles here at a time where it was probably not even an official TT tier format.

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24 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

But it's not really a proper equivalent. Nowadays with the way automated tours'  signups happen, it's very likely in first round that you run into someone who is running Fly Charizard or you get a bye. You can also easily manage to get into the later stages of a tournament if you're lucky enough to have your bracket arranged in a manner where you constantly face lower tier players. In the previous system, having players register on forums to sign up for tours meant they'd be a lot more skillful (I don't really need to expand on this), and having a fewer number of players in a tour meant that you couldn't make finals without having to face a good player. 

Neither is the "small pond" remarks that Fred made. I'm not sure when the last time you guys watched automated tournaments, but I rarely see anyone running story-mons in these. The previous system only worked because not many people used forums as much imo, but that didn't determine who was skillful back then. There's a lot of decent competitive players now, even if their names aren't well known to those who lurk on forums nowadays. Also, the size of the bracket doesn't really matter. As the tournament goes on, the bracket will just weed out the unlucky fellas and you'll eventually run into good players while trying to make the finals. If that's not the case you can always be like Nahwel and call everyone bad so we're all on the same page. 

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Just now, gbwead said:

Ya I heard that before and it's pretty much BS; back then, you could only sign up through the forum which mean you could only face the exact same few people on which you base your reference of what is skillful and what isn't.

The same people I faced back then are the same people who are striving in today's metagame. Frags was dominating then, and is still doing so now. Doesn't look to me like the newer faces are putting in much of the threat.

 

Just now, gbwead said:

 I realise old players get nostalgic about their old days in the competitive scene, but that doesn't mean the competition was more intense before.  The mere fact that I was one of the players in one of these tournaments despite having not a single dubs comp should show that there were byes back then too.

This isn't anything to do with nostalgia, but you're deluding yourself into thinking the competitive scene is more skillful now when instead it is just more tiresome. I don't think dubs was very competitive back in 14-15 as it is now though, so I agree with you that it was easy to make it in later stages of a dubs tour. However, with respect to other tiers like OU / UU, it was harder than it is now. 

 

Just now, gbwead said:

Today, players can test out their teams and comps regularly in matchmaking and tournaments. The meta is very defined and not some vague idea. When you face someone, that person is familiar with the format played which was not the case before.

Back then, we had a shitload of pokedailies, unofficials, and PSL was at its PEAK. There was plenty of practice and opportunity for the skillful to prevail. That was a better metric to determine if you had a good team or not. Nowadays, If I'm correct, only OU is used for matchmaking, so players only get practice in that tier. What basis do you even have for this bolded statement? 

 

Just now, gbwead said:

Also, we're talking about fuckign doubles here at a time where it was probably not even an official TT tier format.

I don't know if we're still talking about dubs specifically, but I'm addressing your whole point about how getting in the quarters of a tournament now is the equivalent of making the finals of a 32 man tour.  I just picked the latest bracket in the HOF and the lower bracket is a complete joke of how you can easily make it past 4 rounds:

https://pokemmo.eu/tournament/?id=1309

Just now, xSparkie said:

Neither is the "small pond" remarks that Fred made. I'm not sure when the last time you guys watched automated tournaments, but I rarely see anyone running story-mons in these. The previous system only worked because not many people used forums as much imo, but that didn't determine who was skillful back then. There's a lot of decent competitive players now, even if their names aren't well known to those who lurk on forums nowadays. Also, the size of the bracket doesn't really matter. As the tournament goes on, the bracket will just weed out the unlucky fellas and you'll eventually run into good players while trying to make the finals. If that's not the case you can always be like Nahwel and call everyone bad so we're all on the same page. 

Oh Fred's comment was completely uncalled for, I agree with that. I was just specifically addressing the part where making it to the quarters of a tour now is the equivalent of making it to the finals of a 32 man tour then.

Edited by NikhilR

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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

The mere fact that I was one of the players in one of these tournaments despite having not a single dubs comp should show that there were byes back then too.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

4 hours ago, xSparkie said:

Neither is the "small pond" remarks that Fred made. I'm not sure when the last time you guys watched automated tournaments, but I rarely see anyone running story-mons in these. The previous system only worked because not many people used forums as much imo, but that didn't determine who was skillful back then. There's a lot of decent competitive players now, even if their names aren't well known to those who lurk on forums nowadays. Also, the size of the bracket doesn't really matter. As the tournament goes on, the bracket will just weed out the unlucky fellas and you'll eventually run into good players while trying to make the finals. If that's not the case you can always be like Nahwel and call everyone bad so we're all on the same page. 

i think the very heavy multi lingual push to get pokemmo in as many languages and countrys and devices as fragmented pokemmo into many small ponds where no one speaks the same language and cant communicate. lack of communication has inherently weakened the competitive community because it is not a community but many small ones that can not share ideas and strategy and talk tier'ing. all these little ponds will have their own metagame based off their own separate and similar but different strategys and ideas. meanwhile all the old farts are dying because this game doesnt have much to give after you finish it and devs dont care about that market.

 

also this IS the trash talk section of psl folks so while i call current gen players trash, try not to get too offend or put too much weight behind those words. just the right amount of offended to be entertaining. 

Edited by fredrichnietze

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13 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

You're the one that used me as an example lmao, but when i do the same it's fallacy?? Please stop embarassing yourself and gtfo fred.

 

15 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

The same people I faced back then are the same people who are striving in today's metagame. Frags was dominating then, and is still doing so now. Doesn't look to me like the newer faces are putting in much of the threat.

First of all, old players have an enormous ressource advantage, so it's not surprising if some still have some sucess today and, let's be fair, Frags competitive prowess is not comparable to the 31 other players in these brackets.

 

15 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

This isn't anything to do with nostalgia, but you're deluding yourself into thinking the competitive scene is more skillful now when instead it is just more tiresome.

Not really, I wasn't there at the very beginning, but I'm an old enough player to notice how much the competitive scene has evolved. If you don't even bother to compete anymore because it's too "tiresome", you're the one deluding yourself in thinking you're in a position to make an accurate comparison.

 

16 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I don't know if we're still talking about dubs specifically, but I'm addressing your whole point about how getting in the quarters of a tournament now is the equivalent of making the finals of a 32 man tour.  I just picked the latest bracket in the HOF and the lower bracket is a complete joke of how you can easily make it past 4 rounds:

https://pokemmo.eu/tournament/?id=1309

Why lol? because the competitive scene is so big now that you don't know all the big names or because you are too inactive to know what the big names are? It's pretty obnoxious to say how easy it would have been to make it past the first 4 rounds when you probably don't have a clue who these players even are. They are not easy to beat just because you don't know their names.

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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

You're the one that used me as an example lmao, but when i do the same it's fallacy?? Please stop embarassing yourself and gtfo fred.

 

that was smack talk not a example silly

 

 

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2 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

that was smack talk not a example silly

fred, when is the last time you participated in a tournament?

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35 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Not really, I wasn't there at the very beginning, but I'm an old enough player to notice how much the competitive scene has evolved. If you don't even bother to compete anymore because it's too "tiresome", you're the one deluding yourself in thinking you're in a position to make an accurate comparison.

ty

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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

fred, when is the last time you participated in a tournament?

its been years since i played *official tournaments

Edited by fredrichnietze

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Just now, gbwead said:

First of all, old players have an enormous ressource advantage, so it's not surprising if some still have some sucess today and, let's be fair, Frags competitive prowess is not comparable to the 31 other players in these brackets.

Old players really can't have that much of an enormous resource advantage if the meta has changed a lot now compared to pre-unova. My point is that if a player who performed well in the previous meta, like Frags, still played in today's meta, they'd be very successful as well. 

 

Just now, gbwead said:

Not really, I wasn't there at the very beginning, but I'm an old enough player to notice how much the competitive scene has evolved. If you don't even bother to compete anymore because it's too "tiresome", you're the one deluding yourself in thinking you're in a position to make an accurate comparison.

I really can't be bothered to grind 24/7 and play 64 and 128 man officials because of how time-consuming it is, and especially because there's nothing left for me to achieve. If I do bother to compete, it's for TT because it is a lot more prestigious, or when I am really bored. Let's look at my past performances:

 

January TT 2019:
https://pokemmotournament.challonge.com/TTJ2019

I beat some guy in META for 1, I beat Madara in r2, I beat Chuckuno in r3, I lost to Titoo in finals due to a miscalc which is completely my fault. My record 3-1.

February TT 2019:
https://pokemmotournament.challonge.com/TTFeb2019

I lost to a random when my Carracosta missed a +2 Stone Edge vs his Orb Exegg, otherwise I would've won. Let's not forget that this was the first time I ever played NU post-Unova.  I'm pretty sure I was the better player. My record 0-1.

March TT 2019:
https://pokemmotournament.challonge.com/TTMarch2019

I beat Titoo in r1, then some guy who ran Fly Salamence in r2 with some help from Aurum who told me about his team, and then enchanteur in r3 with quite a bit of luck. My record 3-0. Moreover, LYLE started every round with a loss because it was just Zeb and myself carrying till semis. Clearly if a team composed of dead players can make it to finals and semis of a TT, the competition right now is a joke.

 

December 2018

I remember also playing a Xmas Tag Team where myself and Laz reached finals. Basically I carried him so you can count my wins twice (including tiebreaker), with my only loss being in finals. My record 8-1.

 

Just because I choose to not spend infinite hours playing this game doesn't mean I don't know who is good or who isn't. If someone like me can pop in randomly and still put up decent records, the competition is no way near better than what it was back then. 

 

Just now, gbwead said:

 

Why lol? because the competitive scene is so big now that you don't know all the big names or because you are too inactive to know what the big names are? It's pretty obnoxious to say how easy it would have been to make it past the first 4 rounds when you probably don't have a clue who these players even are. They are not easy to beat just because you don't know their names.

No, it's not me being obnoxious, but simply objective. If these players at the bottom half of the bracket were all that good, I'd see their names a lot more often. For example, I never knew who Santii was until I checked today's HoF and seeing as how he put his name out there, I now recognize him. I refuse to believe that YouthOfxxx is a good player who made it to the quarterfinals of the NU tour by beating skillful players such as Pokejuan, Elregur, and Urquiidi. 

https://pokemmo.eu/tournament/?id=1309

 

Go ahead and prove me wrong by showing that each of the above named players have made deep runs in tournaments. 

Edited by NikhilR

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14 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

I really can't be bothered to grind 24/7 and play 64 and 128 man officials because of how time-consuming it is, and especially because there's nothing left for me to achieve. If I do play I bother to compete, it's for TT because it is a lot more prestigious or when I am seriously bored. Let's look at my past performances:

 

January TT 2019:
https://pokemmotournament.challonge.com/TTJ2019

I don't know who played for META, I beat Madara in r2, I beat Chuckuno in r3, I lost to Titoo in finals due to a miscalc which is completely my fault. My record 3-1.

February TT 2019:
https://pokemmotournament.challonge.com/TTFeb2019

I lost to a random when my Carracosta missed a +2 Stone Edge vs his Orb Exegg, otherwise I would've won. Let's not forget that this was the first time I ever played NU post-Unova.  I'm pretty sure I was the better player. My record 0-1.

March TT 2019:
https://pokemmotournament.challonge.com/TTMarch2019

I beat Titoo in r1, then some guy who ran Fly Salamence in r2 with some help from Aurum who told me about his team, and then enchanteur in r3 with quite a bit of luck. My record 3-0. Moreover, LYLE started every round with a loss because it was just Zeb and myself carrying till semis. Clearly if a team composed of dead players can make it to finals and semis of a TT, the competition right now is a joke.

 

December 2018

I remember also playing a Xmas Tag Team where myself and Laz reached finals. Basically I carried him so you can count my wins twice (including tiebreaker), with my only loss being in finals. My record 8-1.

 

Just because I choose to not spend infinite hours playing this game doesn't mean I don't know who is good or who isn't. If someone like me can pop in randomly and still put up decent records, the competition is no way near better than what it was back then. 

You had good performances, but you used to win a lot, you didn't win anything here. It's fine that you are not as active as before, but you're also not performing as much as you used too either. If it was as easy as you said, you would have won.

 

6 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

No, it's not me being obnoxious, but simply objective. If these players at the bottom half of the bracket were all that good, I'd see their names a lot more often. For example, I never knew who Santii was until I checked today's HoF and seeing as how he put his name out there, I now recognize him. I refuse to believe that YouthOfxxx is a good player who made it to the quarterfinals of the NU tour by beating skillful players such as Pokejuan, Elregur, and Urquiidi. 

https://pokemmo.eu/tournament/?id=1309

More competitors = less chance each competitor win several time = less likely that nikhirl see their name appear in the HoF

The fact that the same people don't win over and over like before proves that there is more competition now.

 

5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Go ahead and prove me wrong by showing that each of the above named players have made deep runs in tournaments. 

Glady, but first you'll have to tell me who the fuck these 2013 players are: https://challonge.com/SNHSeptember.

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4 hours ago, gbwead said:

More competitors = less chance each competitor win several time

no. look at the olympics man. america always fucking wins with china right behind. the country's that invest the time and money to get skilled competitors and train them win consistently. 

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Glady, but first you'll have to tell me who the fuck these 2013 players are: https://challonge.com/SNHSeptember.

you joined the forums in 2014. you not knowing who barrage and jstud and markoc are is not a sign they arent legends.

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1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

no. look at the olympics man. america always fucking wins with china right behind. the country's that invest the time and money to get skilled competitors and train them win consistently. 

You're absolutely right Fred, there is no luck in pokemon, no probs, no prediction, no risk, nada, unlike the olympics where the competitors get haxed all the time and RNG is always a huge factor. Seriously, how do you even come up with such idiotic shit?

 

1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

you joined the forums in 2014. you not knowing who barrage and jstud and markoc are is not a sign they arent legends.

I know who barrage and jstud are. I have also seen them play once or twice, but I can't say I see them as legends. 

Edited by gbwead

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Just now, gbwead said:

You had good performances, but you used to win a lot, you didn't win anything here. It's fine that you are not as active as before, but you're also not performing as much as you used too either. If it was as easy as you said, you would have won.

There was nothing here for me to win individually lol. TT is a combined effort, not a one man effort. Same for the tag team tour. But to get back to your point, if you say I won a lot earlier, it's also because I played A LOT earlier. If I invested the same amount of time and effort as I did pre-unova, I'd be putting up similar records. Oh, I also won a 32 man tour with 250k entry fee in early of 2018 though:

https://pokemmo.eu/tournament/?id=736

 

I think that's the last tour I officially won. 

 

Just now, gbwead said:

More competitors = less chance each competitor win several time = less likely that nikhirl see their name appear in the HoF

The fact that the same people don't win over and over like before proves that there is more competition now.

Bigger size bracket = more chance for noobs to enter or more chances of byes. You're confusing quantity with quality. Yes, it is less likely that a particular competitor will win with more competition, but that doesn't mean that the competition is better.

 

Another way I could rephrase my stance would be:

Less tournaments = less times you see same name appear

 

Winning a tournament then was a lot more prestigious because of how infrequent it is. Now winning an OU tour with Shiny Gengar or an NU mon is not really noteworthy. 

 

Just now, gbwead said:

Glady, but first you'll have to tell me who the fuck these 2013 players are: https://challonge.com/SNHSeptember.

 Okay, but this was before my time, so I can't be fully accurate:

1) Barrage was supposedly dominant in the beginning of PokeMMO. His team won the most number of TTs until LYLE entered the comp scene.

2) JSTUD was the leader of LYLE, and it was the trio of him, Bowser and Bloo that gave LYLE the initial recognition.

3) Phoenixxzz was supposedly one of the best level 100 players at that time (there were separate tours for level 50 and 100 mons)

4) Daniellegal was one of the finest dubs players to have played for Aura.

5) Markoc was also a prominent spanish player back then.

6) I think orehs was shero, and he was an active Aura player in 14-15.

7) Perverse was the leader of Optic, and he was the first one to teach me a lot about competitive batting when I first started MMO.

8) Zakaveli was also one of the best level 100 players at that time.

9) pel was an Aw player, maybe Frags can dish out more info on him.

10) TheBloo was the GOAT in 2013.

11) SpartacusGD is an amazing player despite being dead atm.

12) TopQuake was one of Barrage's teammates in TT iirc.

13) JackFrost was also a prominent Spanish player. 

14) iRoyxD was one of the first people to create a Spanish team in MMO - DD.

15) Patinhoxxx was also an Aw player, I think Frags can help you out. 

 

The rest I am unsure of because as I said, this was before my time. That's still 15/32 of quality players of that time. Pull up a 2014-15 bracket where I placed in finals, and I should be able to tell you more info on each participant. 

 

Now your turn to educate me on who YouthOfxxx, Pokejuan, Elregur, and Urquiidi are.

Edited by NikhilR

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4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Now your turn to educate me on who YouthOfxxx, Pokejuan, Elregur, and Urquiidi are.

youthoftoday is a lava player who only does nu iirc and urquiidi is in my tag team for the hdlm tour

 

idk randoms to some can be known to others, doesn't mean they're automatically bad

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8 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Now your turn to educate me on who YouthOfxxx, Pokejuan, Elregur, and Urquiidi are.

Poor urquidi jaja. Actually he is a decent uu player, he got some finals i think. The other players i dont know, but that does not mean they are bad.

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Just now, calidubstep said:

youthoftoday is a lava player who only does nu iirc and urquiidi is in my tag team for the hdlm tour

 

idk randoms to some can be known to others, doesn't mean they're automatically bad

Okay now that I know who they are, what metric should I use to determine their skill level? 

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2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

There was nothing here for me to win individually lol. TT is a combined effort, not a one man effort. Same for the tag team tour. But to get back to your point, if you say I won a lot earlier, it's also because I played A LOT earlier. If I invested the same amount of time and effort as I did pre-unova, I'd be putting up similar records.

maybe ur just good at mons cause you put a shitton of hours into it, whether it be mmo or showdown. its easy to call other people trash when ur good at something i guess.

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Just now, DrButler said:

maybe ur just good at mons cause you put a shitton of hours into it, whether it be mmo or showdown. its easy to call other people trash when ur good at something i guess.

Yeah, it's basically relativity. My thought process is: 

comparing myself to tour players nowadays - I'm on a better footing

comparing myself to tour players in 13-15 - I'm on an equal footing

 

So, players in 13-15 are most likely going to be better than the tour players today. 

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5 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Okay now that I know who they are, what metric should I use to determine their skill level? 

i mean if i dug, i could probably find urquidi in some deep runs. good thing i have a record of all the times i lost for rp in tours or else id feel like i never did anything

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Just now, calidubstep said:

i mean if i dug, i could probably find urquidi in some deep runs. good thing i have a record of all the times i lost for rp in tours or else id feel like i never did anything

The metric I generally use is their track record in officials, whom they've played etc. If you can show me urquidi beating some of the good UU players in Lkrenz's list of best UU players or something, that would work. Other than that, it's just merely speculative or rather a straight-up presumption that someone is good unless proven otherwise, which usually isn't the case. 

Edited by NikhilR

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