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Trial4life

Building a Sun team for OU

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Hi everyone,

I've been playing PokeMMO PvP since September, and I know what are the most relevant mons for the actual metagame.

I managed to made a decent team with a good strategy; however, I started to get bored to use always the same Pokémon.
I often see rain teams, but I rarely see sun teams. I then started to think of a sun team which could potentially be competitive also in OU. I know it's not that easy, since Ninetales can't have Draught up to now... but I want to give a try.

 

I've already chosen the first three mons of the team:

 

Spoiler

exeggutor.png

Exeggutor @ Expert Belt (or Life Orb?)
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 54 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Solar Beam
- AncientPower
- Hidden Power [Fire]

 

torkoal.png

Torkoal @ Heat Rock
Trait: Draught
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Lava Plume
- Solar Beam (or Stealth Rock?)
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic (or Stealth Rock?)

 

arcanine.png

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate (or Flash Fire?)
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- ExtremeSpeed
- Close Combat

Exeggutor is my favourite Pokémon and must be there... in the past I used to run it with Sunny Day to keep the sun after Pelipper/Tyranitar switchs in, but recently I found it much more useful to use Hidden Power fire to counter a lot 4x weak mons such as Ferrothorm, Scizor, and also other annoying steel types such as Magnezone.

 

Torkal is needed to set up the sun upon switching. I'm still in doubt for what move to take out for Stealth Rock... Solar Beam could be a bless for countering x4 weak mons (Swampert), however I almost never use it, due to the low Special Attack stat of Torkoal.

 

Arcanine is just perfect for this team: Flare Blitz under the sun is devastating, and a fire physical sweeper comes really handy against Will-O-Wisp walls.

 

 

For the other three Pokémon of the team, I have no Idea what could be the best choices. Up to now, I'm using for the fourth and fifth:

 

Spoiler

umbreon.png

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic (or Heal Bell?)

 

 

gengar.png

Gengar @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Destiny Bond
- Focus Blast

 

I like Umbreon as a general wall. Foul Play is a need to counter Dragon Dance/Swords Dance physical sweepers, and is useful to heal teammates HP. I can't decide whether Toxic should be replaced with Heal Bell or not... however, since my physical sweeper can't be burned, I think I'll stick with Toxic.

 

Gengar is just a temporary special sweeper, with different coverage from Exeggutor, but maybe it doesn't fits well in this team.

 

About the last Pokémon, I have really no idea... I'm trying with a couple of walls I already had in the previous team:


 

Spoiler

tentacruel.png

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Trait: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off (or Ice Beam?)

 

donphan-f.png

Donphan @ Rocky Helmet
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SDef
Impish Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

 

Or even another physical sweeper:

 

Spoiler

salamence.png

Salamence @ Expert Belt
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance

However, non of these seems to work well (I tryed one of these last three mons since I already had them available).

 

Can you give me any advices on the last 2-3 Pokémon to invest in for this sun team?

Edited by Trial4life

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K

 

I don’t know much about sun teams and they are usually shunned because both rain and sand users counter them in the sense that sand raises the special defense of the types that benefit from it and rain mons usually have a second stab move that kills the benefactors of sun. Also there is the fact that most mons with chlorophyll are one dimensional and don’t have many variants in sets if any.

 

There is also the fact that sun boosts the common fire moves, which hit grass types super effectively, but that's an obvious one. If you worry about it, then Flash Fire Arcanine is the better option. 

 

Now with that said, don’t mind anyone trying to tell you not to use the team, have fun experimenting :D

 

So first thing that comes to mind is how to kill other weather setters, in that sense you may need a fighting mon/move to make sure Tyranitar is always threatened (since Hippowdon is usually threatened by sun teams regardless, I’m not mentioning it as the main thing to keep in mind, same goes for Giga). As for Pelliper, some people run it with scarf, so keep that in mind, stab Hurricanes are rough.

 

You may need a fast scarfed pokemon that stays in the back and always threatens most of the meta... I use agility Blaizken instead, with TPunch, Hi and Blaze kick.. item being either sash or wide lens, depends on whether you have hazard control or not, and whether the rest of the team can manage common priority users.

 

Good luck! 

And I can’t wait for Infernape to be implemented and rape all the variables of the current metagame xD

Edited by MHkaserz

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Don't use Umbreon, Sun is a momentum based play style, using walls with it, will generally make you waste sun turns and people will play around that.

Use Darmanitan instead of Arcanine, more damage and again a better momentum gainer with U-turn.

The rest of your team doesn't really synergize well with sun. I haven't tested this, but on paper Whimsicott seems like a good mon to have in sun, priority defog, u-turn, encore to lock certain mons trying to set up, priority Sunny Day can help you keep sun up even if your Torkoal dies.

Typhlosion is a good option if you can keep rocks away, its damage with Eruption under the sun is obscene. Victreebel seems pretty solid too. If Duggy doesn't get banned it's a great option to get rid of Ttar, Excadrill, Kabutops if you have a sash.

 

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if you want a wall I would suggest whimsicot instead of umbreon. Sub, seed, sday, and either toxic or encore. I would also suggest Darmanitan, flame charge is beast under the sun plus rock slide can counter pelliper. Another good sweeper I would suggest would be Chandelure. You do want stealth rocks on torkoal, the added hazards help.

I started running a s.day team after I caught a shiny torkoal that was decent. Its Torkoal, Whimsicot, Dramanitan, Chandelure, hydreigon, Volcarona, and it's done pretty good for me. 

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Thank you all for the great hints.

Whimsicott seems to be a perfect wall for this team, the "Priority Sunny Day" convinced me! However I'm still in doubt for the other three moves...

Leech Seed can be useful to recover the health lost to cast a sunny day;

Protect can be useful for move scouting/health recovery after leech seed;

Toxic can be used to stall walls;

Defog is really handy since it has always +1 priority (however I prefer rapid spin , since Defog removes also enemies hazards);

Encore to stall enemies trying to setup;

U-Turn to keep the momentum.

 

It's hard to choose only 3 of them (since Sunny Day is the key move). Which moveset could work better for this team? Maybe the Toxic stall strategy could be too slow and I would waste sun turns (as said by MHkaserz)... so maybe Leech Seed/Defog/Encore, or Leech Seed/Defog/U-Turn could be the best options (or even Encore/Defog/U-Turn, however the health recover would be less).

One last doubt about Torkal moveset... I can't decide if it'd be better to remove Toxic, Solar Beam or Rapid Spin for Stealth Rocks....

Solar Beam saved me a couple of time since it deals a lot of damage when supereffective;

Toxic can always be useful to take out walls, however it can still be too slow;

Rapid Spin is important since most of the teammates are fire type, and rocks must always be kept away (however it won't work if the opponent has ghost Pokémon),

 

Thanks for the help!

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Ok so, just to make sure everything is where it should be

9 hours ago, Trial4life said:

Maybe the Toxic stall strategy could be too slow and I would waste sun turns (as said by MHkaserz)...

On 3/15/2019 at 6:48 PM, suigin said:

Sun is a momentum based play style, using walls with it, will generally make you waste sun turns and people will play around that.

It was not me who said that. 
Still, it is a very important and correct note.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Moving on. Yes! Whimsicott definitely suffers greatly from the "4 moves only" syndrome. It even gets "Memento", "Tail Wind", and many other AMAZING moves that get priority!
With that said, we need to take a moment to think about his role.

1- He isn't going to stall, he will set the sun and U-Turn out of there immediately (most of the time).

2- Toxic/Protect is for stalling, it is not that good to run one without the other. (Scouting < Making use of Sun turns)
3- Given that you probably won't use "Heat Rock" on Whim, I believe it is better to let go of this ^ strategy here.

4- Encore is always good, since if you know a mon will 100% set-up, you can switch him in and with priority Encore, it just puts the momentum back with you.

Sunny Day/ U-Turn/ Encore/ Leech Seed ..That is most likely the moveset I'd go for, with Leech Seed being the one move you can change with maybe Defog/Memento
(Memento if you have a big set-up mon that you want to switch in on an attacker)

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Onto the next subject.
Give up on Solar-Beam.. If you want it on someone, Typhlosion would be the better choice, since Tork won't really be dealing damage with it.

I ran some calcs and even in the Sun, Milotic beats Tork 1v1 every time, so Solar-Beam would only be useful vs Swampert, Quagsire, Seismitoad and Rhyperior. 
None of the mons I mentioned see much use in OU. (Not because they are bad, people usually don't use them that much, or rather there are bigger threats.)

Moreover, if a weather setter is switched in on the turn you decided to click Solar-Beam you'll be locked into using it.
Running the calcs the damage on both Rain and Sand setters after they remove the sun is mediocre and so isn't worth it.

If you want to make a Modest Tork though, my opinion might change xD

Rapid Spin/ Toxic/ Steal Rock/ Lava Plume is the moveset you want on Tork I think.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Last but not least, you are welcome good sir, happy I could help :D
Good luck and have fun!

 

Edited by MHkaserz
Won't tell!

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Building on Suigins post, as a general guideline, most sun teams have the same structure:

1. Weather Inducer

2. Dugtrio

3. Sun abuser

4. Fire type

5. hazard removal

6. sponge or second abuser or second hazard removal

 

Following this structure a few mons are set already:

1. Torkoal as our weather inducer (it should also carry stealth rock + rapid spin itself)

2. Dugtrio as our trapper to get rid of Tyranitar and occasionally Blissey or even Chansey, depending on the set you run and whether or not you managed to weaken them before.

 

 which leaves us with 4 slots to fill.

3. sun abuser/chlorophyll user

Exegutor, Victreebel, Lilligant, Vileplume

You said that you prefer Exegutor which is a fair choice imo. I personally think that Lilligant is better since it has sleep powder and access to quiver dance, but that is my personal opinion.

 

4. Fire type

Arcanine, Darmanitan, Tyhplosion, Volcarona, Chandelure

I agree that Darm looks nice as it can keep the momentum up with u-turn. Further, this slot is usually filled by a wallbreaker and choice band darm can definitely break. By just looking at the mons individually Volcarona stands out as the strongest, however, it is 4x weak to stealth rock so hazards have to be off the field at all times. In general, Dugtrio + Volcarona build a solid core that should work well even outside of sun ( wanted to test it, haven`t tested it yet).

Concluding I think we can narrow it down to Darm or Volcarona, they outclass the others.

 

5. Hazard Removal

Our options are sheer endless:

Rapid Spin: Forrestress, Starmie and Tentacruel look like the most promising to me, although all of them bar starmie are not really known as momentum gainers. All three of these provide useful resistances. Forre is not really known as a momentum gainer, but can set hazard itself.

 

Defog: I think Defog Hydreigon or Salamence could work well, as they come with many resistances, a great movepool and are useful outside of their role. Prankster Defog as suggested by Suigin also looks nice given the importance of hazard removal for sun teams. Whimsicott can also carry heat rock + sunny day to give u the advantage over opposing weather.

 

6. Sponge or second abuser

I think that if you did not chose a dragon type as the 5th pokemon, it would fit this one quite well. Another Option is Snorlax or maybe even Rhyperior. Maybe, just Maybe Venusaur would also fit this slot. Even without Chlorophyll it is decent in Sun and can still be quite good vs rain and sand.

 

Now after all of this being said, I do not want to discourage you, but given that most of these mons can be played in UU, you might want to consider switching tiers to have much more success using sun. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, MHkaserz said:

I ran some calcs and even in the Sun, Milotic beats Tork 1v1 every time, so Solar-Beam would only be useful vs Swampert, Quagsire, Seismitoad and Rhyperior. 

None of the mons I mentioned see much use in OU. (Not because they are bad, people usually don't use them that much, or rather there are bigger threats.)

But I often encounter Cloyster as a lead, and 99% of times he will Shell Smash against Torkoal... and Solar Beam will always OHKO him after one Shell Smash (provided he doesn't have a Focus Sash or White Herb of course).

Regarding Whimsicott, you convinced me with U-Turn/Encore/Defog/Sunny Day.

 

I'll think carefully about all of yuor precious hints, and then I'll choose the remaining 3. Unfortunately actually I only have the Pokéyen for a decent Whimsicott, I'll need to grind more money to invest on other mons... do you suggest me to breed them for good IVs, or buy them directly on GTL (even with only 2-3x31)?

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14 hours ago, Trial4life said:

Thank you all for the great hints.

Whimsicott seems to be a perfect wall for this team, the "Priority Sunny Day" convinced me! However I'm still in doubt for the other three moves...

Leech Seed can be useful to recover the health lost to cast a sunny day;

Protect can be useful for move scouting/health recovery after leech seed;

Toxic can be used to stall walls;

Defog is really handy since it has always +1 priority (however I prefer rapid spin , since Defog removes also enemies hazards);

Encore to stall enemies trying to setup;

U-Turn to keep the momentum.

 

It's hard to choose only 3 of them (since Sunny Day is the key move). Which moveset could work better for this team? Maybe the Toxic stall strategy could be too slow and I would waste sun turns (as said by MHkaserz)... so maybe Leech Seed/Defog/Encore, or Leech Seed/Defog/U-Turn could be the best options (or even Encore/Defog/U-Turn, however the health recover would be less).

memento for whimsicott is a great option that helps you send in a chlorophyll attacker without any risk and wasting a turn

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0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster in Sun: 211-249 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

If cloyster is the biggest problem, I would invest enough into spatk to OHKO, which is 124:

 

124 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster in Sun: 244-288 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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I made the calculations and I noticed that even Lava Plume can OHKO Cloyster after Shell Smash! In this case probably Solar Beam should be removed....

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

memento for whimsicott is a great option that helps you send in a chlorophyll attacker without any risk and wasting a turn

Memento instead of U-Turn, or instead of another move?

And what about the EV spread?
− 252 HP/252 Def

− 252 HP/252 SDef

− 252 Def/252 SDef

− 252 HP/128 Def/128 SDef

 

Maybe the last one would be the best choise to wall all kind of attackers.

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As for the Cloyster lead, Whim crushes that.. just switch it in and Encore it.
He will keep shell smashing or switch out, in the latter case you prevented the danger and can U-turn (or switch) somewhat safely.

You can also follow jfk's suggestion and give up some HP in favor of SpAtk.
I'm not sure how that handles focus sash variants, but it works vs the ones that don't have that.

 

On the Memento thing, I think it could replace Defog or U-turn. 
Gotta match that with your play style.

 

Ok, tbh I'd say "Calm 252HP/252SpDef".. I have no calcs to back this up though.
 

My reason is different, it is just because Whim gets Cotton Guard. 
If you ever decide to use the whole ToxicSubCotton Guard/ Leech Seed shenanigans.

 

Thanks for being a nice person btw :D

 

 

 

Edited by MHkaserz
Avec Aplomb!

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53 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

As for the Cloyster lead, Whim crushes that.. just switch it in and Encore it.

 

until cloyster ice shards and rekts whimsicott.

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2 hours ago, MHkaserz said:

As for the Cloyster lead, Whim crushes that.. just switch it in and Encore it.

possibly the worst possible move.

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