[Op Ed] DoubleJ on the Economy (Again)

[Dazuzi]

2 hours ago, Zymogen said:

Their point is that people who spend a lot of IRL money on the currently astronomically-inflated RP items to sell for quick cash have a distinct monetary advantage over others who don’t, due solely to the fact that grinding money the proper way in-game is so slow and inefficient.

 

You're confusing pay2win with pay2play in this case.

 

You can spend money as a shortcut to in-game currency, but that's optional, so it doesn't make the game pay2play in any way whatsoever. I think the problem is how unrewarding grinding in this game is, thus people resort to berry farming on multiple accounts, inflating yen for everyone in the process.

 

2 hours ago, Zymogen said:

That is an archetypal p2w situation. Hell, people don’t even need to grind anymore if they’re smart with their vanity investments.

 

When you can gain money at a fast rate over time without even having to do anything in a MMO, you know something is wrong. 

The only way you can 'win' in an MMO is in a PvP scenario, which in this game isn't directly affected by in-game purchases.

 

There are no pokemon/moves/items locked behind a paywall, every team has a maximum of 6 spots, every pokemon can only reach a certain stat, regardless of how much money you spend on the game. Don't get me wrong, I can see your side of the argument, but I simply don't agree that the option to get comps faster makes it pay2win - that said, having this option in an MMO is absolutely not optimal like you pointed out, but unless there is a better way to monetize the game it is what it is.

[Zymogen]

2 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

You're confusing pay2win with pay2play in this case.

no one here is talking about p2p

 

2 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

The only way you can 'win' in an MMO is in a PvP scenario, which in this game isn't directly affected by in-game purchases.

 

There are no pokemon/moves/items locked behind a paywall, every team has a maximum of 6 spots, every pokemon can only reach a certain stat, regardless of how much money you spend on the game. Don't get me wrong, I can see your side of the argument, but I simply don't agree that the option to get comps faster makes it pay2win 

see my response to brunomarin, basically reiterates what i meant/is what i would say in response to this

 

3 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

that said, having this option in an MMO is absolutely not optimal like you pointed out, but unless there is a better way to monetize the game it is what it is.

ya, i dont disagree. they have to make a living somehow

[Dazuzi]

8 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

no one here is talking about p2p

Ah, I was referring to the original post and also goku's statement, who both claimed that this is a p2p game. The post in which you first quoted me was a direct reply to them so I thought you were on board with it.

 

15 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

see my response to brunomarin, basically reiterates what i meant/is what i would say in response to this

I did read it, I just think that while having an optional shortcut is definitely unhealthy, it doesn't meet my definition of p2w.

[Havsha]

Staff are really putting up non-shiny comps with my kind of ivs and expect it to be an adequate prize for all the hundreds and thousands of hours of work people put into this game, its a joke really

 

edit: @Desu @Kyu @Squirtle @Rache @WhoeverIHaveToAt Frankly this needs to change, you're actively mocking the efforts of competive players with these insulting prizes, instead of hiding behind the opaque cloak you have worn for the last 4 years start hearing and responding the the feedback of your player base, especially the veterans who have stuck around for so long. If we're wrong then make a post explaining why you believe us to be wrong, because if you don't do that then you'll continue to alienate this sphere of the game. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Havsha

[pachima]

15 minutes ago, Havsha said:

Staff are really putting up non-shiny comps with my kind of ivs 

 

1

Since when have you evolved that much?

[Havsha]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

Since when have you evolved that much?

Give it another week, next 128 ou tour is going to have a 6x25 non-shiny comp prize

[PapaGarbodor]

Reintroducing vanities won't fix the problem. It will only make the limited ones lose value but the yen input will be the same.

 

As mentioned before, alt(s) will be created to hold the excess of cash.

 

Giving 6x31 UNTRADEABLE shinies won't fix the problem either. It will just make tournaments more attractive but it does not have any relationship with the economy.

 

They have to either enhance the profit from Gym / NPC / E4  runs since they are the only actual away to generate yen appart from selling berries to NPC or totally nerf the barry farming, which may cause a lot of users to whine, but it's really needed. Doing gym runs you can get  300k while you can do even 3x this ammount with berry farming. Considering chinese abuse this system, that makes it really unfair.

 

 

 

 

 

[suigin]

1 hour ago, Kamowanthere said:

When I said the game is p2w, almost lynched on global

 

You go donate some money

Buy gift shop stuff

Sell them for high price and buy comps

 

What is it called?

Pay to win locks stronger stuff behind a paywall (IE Paying to unlock a permanent Mewtwo), this is pay to not grind (Kind of the same model League of Legends does.)

Edited March 5, 2019 by suigin

[EazyDog]

i would like to add to this discussion:

rerelease the goddamn halloween event vanities... you said you can do it.

how can one justify people need to spend 50-90m on those items? i dont know.... oh wait i do, because devs didnt rerelease shit yet.

thanks

[Dazuzi]

7 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Not that hard to interpret. You can exchange 'items' for things, stuff, objects for which to use within the game, etc. 

I was looking for specific examples because I am not sure where you're going with this. Do you mean having vanities exclusive to some NPC vendor for some new form of currency that has to be earned within the game instead of putting limited vanities for RP in the gift shop?

[Dazuzi]

5 hours ago, suigin said:

Pay to win locks stronger stuff behind a paywall (IE Paying to unlock a permanent Mewtwo), this is pay to not grind (Kind of the same model League of Legends does.)

Precisely.

 

Buying a cosmetic for 10$ -> selling it for 2m in-game cash -> buying a comp Mewtwo with the same 2m -> unhealthy, yet not P2W

Buying a Mewtwo for 10$ in the gift shop, otherwise unobtainable within the game and using it to win a PvP match -> P2W

Edited March 5, 2019 by Dazuzi

[Takens]

You are right economy now this days in game is pretty bad and you came up with really good solutions looking forward for this kind of changes.

[Frenum]

I believe making Giftshop items non-tradeble back again is the way to go. That people people would still buy the items because they want to, but not to sell them.

It used to be like that till 2016, and actually most people would give the same reasons I am giving now.

 

I think the economy has been broken because of people buying tons of vanities and selling them (so, that's a p2w weather you like it or not) and also abusing berry farmer. There have already been fixes regarding the later, but there's still the Giftshop items sales issue.

[Gilan]

@DoubleJ

 

I agree with you on the point of continuously introducing limited vanities. I don’t think that’s good for the game. The main problem is that they are really the main source of income for the devs; and I think we’d be hard pressed to take away Dasu’s lifeline for buying anime and manga.

 

I don’t think having a pokemon take the place of a vanity is a good idea, unless we introduce special alternate art pokemon (like a pikachu with ash’s hat or something).

[Zymogen]

19 minutes ago, Frenum said:

I believe making Giftshop items non-tradeble back again is the way to go. That people people would still buy the items because they want to, but not to sell them.

It used to be like that till 2016, and actually most people would give the same reasons I am giving now.

I agree, donator items should stay as items for donators. Either that or transfer some of the vanity from the gift shop (i.e. overcoat, cape, fighter's headband - general shit) to Pokemarts and make them obtainable only through yen at a fixed price

Edited March 5, 2019 by Zymogen

[Goku]

6 hours ago, Zymogen said:

You’re looking at it the wrong way. Their point is that people who spend a lot of IRL money on the currently astronomically-inflated RP items to sell for quick cash have a distinct monetary advantage over others who don’t, due solely to the fact that grinding money the proper way in-game is so slow and inefficient. That is an archetypal p2w situation. Hell, people don’t even need to grind anymore if they’re smart with their vanity investments.

 

When you can gain money at a fast rate over time without even having to do anything in a MMO, you know something is wrong. 

Exactly someone with common sense and understand the fundementality of trading.

3 hours ago, Dazuzi said:

You're confusing pay2win with pay2play in this case.

You're confusing yourself mate.

[Dazuzi]

1 minute ago, Goku said:

You're confusing yourself mate.

Then reason your own statement which was that this game is pay2play, please.

[Goku]

2 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

Then reason your own statement which was that this game is pay2play, please.

It's even worse. Honestly like why tf should the competitive core grind their asses off to afford a single decent comp when players buy these limiteds by the ton log off a few months and come back fcking billionaires. If there is nothing wrong why tf does threads like these keep popping up? It's ridiculous

Edited March 5, 2019 by Goku

[Goku]

2 hours ago, Dazuzi said:

I was looking for specific examples because I am not sure where you're going with this. Do you mean having vanities exclusive to some NPC vendor for some new form of currency that has to be earned within the game instead of putting limited vanities for RP in the gift shop?

This is actually not a bad idea. Imo if they wanna release limited vanities they should do it this way and make them untradeable like the hockey mask or the pumpkin backpack.

Edit: why did that just double post fck me sorry*.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Goku

[Dazuzi]

2 minutes ago, Goku said:

It's even worse. Honestly like why tf should the competitive core grind their asses off to afford a single decent comp when players buy these limiteds by the ton log off a few months and come back fcking billionaires. If there is nothing wrong why tf does threads like these keep popping up? It's ridiculous

I don't think you read what I actually said. You stated earlier that you 100% agree that this game became pay2play, I am asking you why you think that that's the case.

[Goku]

2 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

I don't think you read what I actually said. You stated earlier that you 100% agree that this game became pay2play, I am asking you why you think that that's the case.

Well let me put it in perspective. A player who grinds 24/7 will never be able to compete with players who buy limited vanities. I mean you wouldn't even be that profitable from berries even if you have 1 or 2 alts not to mention that they nerfed it but that's not the point. There isn't really a good way to farm yen without selling limiteds and rp or "lowballing". The trade market is a joke. Believe me if you wanna play fair and grind and build it's gonna take you years like it did for the players who started out in the egg industry since 2014 without donating because even then limiteds that time didn't rise with 1000% value in a few months. Back then you could still trade for profit, believe it or not there was a shiny market. How is a player suppose to buy his/her desired shiny or make multiple comps? They wouldn't even be able to have good odds in the competitive scene unless they somehow generate millions to afford decent comps. I know this because I'm in a team that likes helping new members and man do they struggle to make a good buck or afford what they want. It's just undesireable to grind 

when others buy a vanity for 10 dollars and can generate 15-20 mil from it in less than 3 months. This is why the biggest percentage of the competitive scene consists from the older player base because it's just undesireable for new players to go through such lengths.

[pachima]

Just want to add that if donator status become untradable, tours(aka rp rewards) will therefore have some worth rewards for those that actually win in, which is not the case rn.

[Dazuzi]

18 minutes ago, Goku said:

words

 

Right, since you clearly don't know what pay2play actually means, this is the literal definition: 'relating to or denoting an arrangement in which a charge must be paid to play a game or sport.' Now, there is absolutely no mandatory charge in order to download or play the game in any way at any point. What you are referring to is P2W, which is why I said that you're confusing P2P with P2W and as suigin pointed out, the game is not P2W, however, Pay2NotGrind is a good way to call it.

 

Your whole point is that the RP/Yen conversion rate is simply too good and players use it over actually obtaining money through playing the game, this is mainly caused by 1) inflation, which you can solve either by decreasing money generated or buffing/introducing new money sinks, or a combination of both and 2) actual grinding being unrewarding, thus people resorting to doing berries on x accounts.

 

Making all the limited items untradeable doesn't solve anything, as it doesn't address the core issues of the economy + it would tank the game's income&and the staff would ultimately lose all credibility.

[Frenum]

20 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

Making all the limited items untradeable doesn't solve anything, as it doesn't address the core issues of the economy + it would tank the game's income&and the staff would ultimately lose all credibility.

I don't think so. I mean, I believe the game is p2w (and not p2p as others have said), as having a lot of money can be one of the goals of the game - and you can just buy anything you want with it.

Therefore I think making Giftshop items untradeable won't help he current situation, but it will certainly make it better in the future, since no more 'easy money' would be generated, and people wouldn't be able to sell the ones that they already have.

Besides, I do not think the staff would lose any credibility, since it used to be like that till 2016, and you are still keeping your items. It's not like releasing the old vanities again, they are just untradeable.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Frenum

[Goku]

6 minutes ago, Dazuzi said:

Right, since you clearly don't know what pay2play actually means, this is the literal definition: 'relating to or denoting an arrangement in which a charge must be paid to play a game or sport.' Now, there is absolutely no mandatory charge in order to download or play the game in any way at any point. What you are referring to is P2W, which is why I said that you're confusing P2P with P2W and as suigin pointed out, the game is not P2W, however, Pay2NotGrind is a good way to call it.

 

Your whole point is that the RP/Yen conversion rate is simply too good and players use it over actually obtaining money through playing the game, this is mainly caused by 1) inflation, which you can solve either by decreasing money generated or buffing/introducing new money sinks, or a combination of both and 2) actual grinding being unrewarding, thus people resorting to doing berries on x accounts.

 

Making all the limited items untradeable doesn't solve anything, as it doesn't address the core issues of the economy + it would tank the game's income&and the staff would ultimately lose all credibility.

Well I mean I guess if you want to get the literal definition yeh you can play the game for free, that is if you got the roms "some way legally". Then you can traverse through all 3 regions without having expectations of joining the competitive scene or being able to afford decent shit in game without having to grind to the bone. Didn't you join a few months ago? When you joined our team we had to help you left right and center and you struggled your ass off just like the other members we helped. I honestly think smth should be done to better the economy. Also if you'd take your time to read I never said to make the current limiteds untradeable, I just said the future ones should be like the pumpkin backpack and hockey mask (untradeable) but you prob didn't understand cuz you weren't here that time when those vanities were released.