Jump to content

[OU Discussion] Togekiss


Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

It wouldn't accomplish much imo. We did something like that with Snorlax few years back (banned curse on it) but shortly after ended up banning the mon itself. I think Snorlax reached 70% usage back then, though, while Togekiss' usage isn't alarming by any chance (15% means it's being used often but it's not like Incineroar's usage in VGC). The way I see it; the pokemon itself in this particular metagame is the problem, it's combination of base stats, speed, ability, movepool, bulk paired with the metagame's most common tendencies (running lots of slow, bulky pokemons such as Scizor/ Conk and then a lot of walls) which are also coming from the availability of the pokes in our meta.

Yea, good point. I wasn't around to see that. I still don't think a ban is necessary at this point since it's only at 15% usage, it's not like every team is coming in with a Togekiss because it's just that OP. If it edges up near Scizor, that's extremely worrisome though.

 

Link to post
  • Replies 225
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

After rising to OU by usage, Togekiss has grown to be one of the most meta defining pokemon of the tier. Of all the Serene Grace users accessible right now, Togekiss is the only one that has managed t

the lord sweendog has spoken, you may now close this thread

big difference, now you can see your future flinches before they happened

7 minutes ago, octet said:

Yea, good point. I wasn't around to see that. I still don't think a ban is necessary at this point since it's only at 15% usage, it's not like every team is coming in with a Togekiss because it's just that OP. If it edges up near Scizor, that's extremely worrisome though.

 

That is not the deciding factor, it can affect the choice but definitely not what matters. 

 

1) Ia it healthy for the meta? Is it  considered competitive, or much likw dugtrio and wobb, is considered unfair? 

 

2) Is there reliable counters within the tier? Golbat, careful aerodactyl are memes.

Link to post
17 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I totally agree. Implementing team preview defo would be the best for not only Togekiss but entire game as a whole, but there's no way we can see it coming, especially when it's been over a year ever since we started asking for it. Dealing with something problematic and then possibly reverting the decision, should the team preview greet this game, seems like the way to go- at least for now.

 

I've spectated few fights from the latest OU CC and I have seen one Togekiss- in finals, though I guess I shouldn't really base my conclusions on that kind of tour, so I took a bit wider perspective.

 

Why Togekiss was not broken in the B/W metagame?

Permanent weather. This way Togekiss barely had a chance to switch in, due to STAB Surfs/ Hydropumps and other rain-related moves flying around. Same goes for sun, obviously.


General powercreep meta. Keep in mind, this is a metagame where Kyurem-Black, a 170 base attack Dragon with Ice STAB was OU. And so was Thundurus-T, which is a 145 base special attack mon with access to Nasty Plot.


Multiple checks and counters from defensive side. B/W had Rotoms, Latis, Heatran, Zapdos, Raikou, Jirachi or Mew, some of them being super hard counters (Zapdos, Rotom) and some being very solid checks to any Togekiss set.

 

Due to lack of permanent weather and lack of presence of multiple top tier offensive threats (lemme name a bunch: Garchomp, Infernape, Keldeo, Kyurem-Black, Lando-T, Latis, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Kyurem, Staraptor), we are left with a lot of slow, bulky mons and we are pretty much forced to play in a defensive metagame. Look at the OU tier. We have typically offensive mons being played defensively because of that. Salamence, an offensive powerhouse is played as a defensive roost defog wall (imagine if we had Zapdos). People are playing freaking Dragonite, a behemoth with 134 base attack as a wall despite it's lack of Multiscale to deal with Togekiss only, because I do not see any other pokemon in the metagame that it deals with reliably.

 

 

I'm kinda leaning on the side for getting rid of it, though mainly because it's a mon that does not require any skill to be played but I've yet to come with any hard argument (can we have some OU tournaments pls?) so I'm not gonna unambigously say yes or no, at least not yet.

 

Just food for thoughts for now.

 

 

mother of god, you spoke the absolut truth !

 

I won't agree with the team preview part, I find it more fun and challenging to scout instead for personnal reasons. But the rest... Bring us Rotom, Garchomp and Infername at least

Link to post

What about a SpDef Bronzong with Heatproof?

It doesn’t necessarily scare Toge out, but it is a very valid check.

 

+2 Toge is also 3~4 HKO with flamethrower. 

 

I didn’t read the other comments, but if you can use one mon to scout for the other 3 moves Toge carries, it has done its job.

 

For example Toxic reveals Heal bell if any.

Gyro ball reveals Roost (or rocks if they were out already)

Bronzong forces out flamethrower if it packs it, otherwise it’ll show aura sphere?

And air slash is basically a must, otherwise it is not even a pulsable threat.

 

I’d say it is fine to trade a mon for another by revenge killing in this scenario, cause that’s how the game works?

sometimes you’d sac everything just to kill that one mon that is stopping your win con from ending it all.

 

If your opponent plays for Toge to be the win con and it happens, then they played the non-team-preview system right, good for them.

 

Btw if a mon with two attacking moves covers all of your team, even with hax into account, I’ve got bad news for you. :V

 

 

Edited by MHkaserz
Link to post
16 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

+2 Toge is also 3~4 HKO with flamethrower. 

doens't matter, he has no offensive pressure to togekiss, she can +6 on his face easily, roost up and air slash him to death. Once again, toxic won't deal with togekiss, and revealing heal bell although nice, I don't see how you expect to win after she's +6, unless you have something fast able to 1hit her.

 

+6 4+ SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 96-113 (55.1 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 4+ SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 153-181 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

__

 

+6 4+ SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 114-135 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4+ SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 72-84 (41.3 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
 
edit: I fucked up and calc'ed modest, but the result is the same with timid, you wont win.
Edited by razimove
Link to post
27 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

What about a SpDef Bronzong with Heatproof?

It doesn’t necessarily scare Toge out, but it is a very valid check.

 

+2 Toge is also 3~4 HKO with flamethrower. 

The problem with bringing up an obscure set from a lower tier is that it generally only fulfils that one specific function. Bringing up a mon from a lower tier as a counter is only a truly viable option if it can also hold its own in the absence of the thing it's trying to counter - which I don't think SpDef Heatproof Bronzong would do, even though it may keep a specific Roost-less Togekiss set at bay. See responses to the suggestions of: Emolga, Careful Aerodactyl, Careful Haze Dragonite.

 

Gigalith and Cofagrigus are successful examples of this - Gigalith was brought up to UU specifically to counter Porygon-Z, and remains in UU regardless of the fact that P-Z has been in OU for almost a year because it also checks Typhlosion, Yanmega and other special threats. Cofagrigus was brought to OU to counter Conkeldurr, but it was soon realised that it is also a perfect counter to other prominent threats to the tier like Scizor and Mienshao.

 

Anyway, more on topic: now I'm thinking about it, Sp. Def Gigalith could be a better option for checking Substitute Togekiss than Sassy Tyranitar:

 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 96-114 (50 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Togekiss: 140-168 (73.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Edited by Zymogen
Link to post
2 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

The problem with bringing up an obscure set from a lower tier is that it generally only fulfils that one specific function. Bringing up a mon from a lower tier as a counter is only a truly viable option if it can also hold its own in the absence of the thing it's trying to counter - which I don't think SpDef Heatproof Bronzong would do. See responses to the suggestions of: Emolga, Careful Aerodactyl, Careful Haze Dragonite.

 

Gigalith and Cofagrigus are successful examples of this - Gigalith was brought up to UU specifically to counter Porygon-Z, and remains in UU regardless of the fact that P-Z has been in OU for almost a year because it also checks Typhlosion, Yanmega and other special threats. Cofagrigus was brought to OU to counter Conkeldurr, but it was soon realised that it is also a perfect counter to other prominent threats to the tier like Scizor and Mienshao.

 

Anyway, more on topic: now I'm thinking about it, though, Sp. Def Gigalith could be a better option for checking Substitute Togekiss than Sassy Tyranitar:

 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 96-114 (50 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Togekiss: 140-168 (73.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Problem is, he suffers from the exact same problem, she can pp stall you with roost as stone edge is 8 PP only. Considering your first calc, with a fully special defensive gigalith, this is what happens on roost togekiss.

 

0 Atk Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 76-91 (39.5 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Link to post
3 minutes ago, razimove said:

Problem is, he suffers from the exact same problem, she can pp stall you with roost as stone edge is 8 PP only. Considering your first calc, with a fully special defensive gigalith, this is what happens on roost togekiss.

 

0 Atk Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 76-91 (39.5 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

I don't disagree. I was just highlighting that it is more suited to the role than Sassy Tyranitar is, as it is just as bulky and hits just as hard, without the 4x weakness. It's not perfect, but I don't think anything is perfect in countering Togekiss.

 

I was also referring specifically to the Sub Togekiss set which doesn't actually carry Roost.

Edited by Zymogen
Link to post

Prior to the bug fix with sleeping mons being immune to flinch, I thought that Rest Calm Mind Zong could probably stall Togekiss, but that's no longer the case sadly :(

Edited by gbwead
Link to post
58 minutes ago, razimove said:

 

Sorry but if you take another turn to Nasty Plot it means you allow for a potential Toxic to be thrown at you 
(since you like to assume what happens next in a match it seems)

Then if you carry protect you can force the other moves to show..
You're assuming worst case scenario and not taking into account that you're forcing the Toge to go out of its way.

Damage is damage, if Toge takes a turn to Heal Bell if it carries it to get rid of the toxic, that's more info gained.
But the fact is.. no Toge will carry Aura Sphere, Air Slash, Nasty Plot, Roost and Heal Bell together

You can cripple the Toge down. Or find out it only has one attacking move? 
 

55 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

 

Bronzong can carry this ability or the other one, and it fits a role and is usable. (Stealth rock setter SpDef Tank)
A Pokemon being in a low tier does not make it forbidden in a higher tier or even un-viable to use.

It is ok to bring a pokemon for the sole purpose of countering a pokemon in the tier. (Specially if it scares you so much)
Case in point, a mix Blaziken that can handle the infamous BlissSkar combo isn't un-viable because it is UU.


 

Edited by MHkaserz
Link to post
6 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

Bronzong can carry this ability or the other one, and it fits a role and is usable. (Stealth rock setter SpDef Tank)
A Pokemon being in a low tier does not make it forbidden in a higher tier or even un-viable to use.

It is ok to bring a pokemon for the sole purpose of countering a pokemon in the tier. (Specially if it scares you so much)
Case in point, a mix Blaziken that can handle the infamous BlissSkar Comp isn't un-viable because it is UU.

You are just reiterating the exact point that I made in my previous post. I didn't say that you shouldn't bring a lower-tier Pokemon up, I just said that it only really works if it's not dead weight in the absence of the Pokemon that you are trying to counter. SpDef Heatproof Bronzong is an example of an obscure set that would be dead weight if no Togekiss was present. 

Edited by Zymogen
Link to post
1 minute ago, Zymogen said:

You are just reiterating the exact point that I made in my previous post. I didn't say that you shouldn't bring a lower-tier Pokemon up, I just said that it only really works if it's not dead weight in the absence of the Pokemon that you are trying to counter. SpDef Heatproof Bronzong is an example of something that would be dead weight if no Togekiss was present. 

Why is a Stealth rocker, with Toxic, strong Gyro ball and so much potential to have other move-sets be dead weight in another game? 
Unless you use him wrong... o.o

Play Trick room? Play Sand? Play Dual-Screens?
If a counter to Toge doesn't fit your team, and your team loses to Toge, that's your fault xD

No one team can counter everything or be reliable vs everything. 
What is going on here? xD

 

Link to post
2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Bronzong doesn't have a set that counters Togekiss anyways. I don't think it's a bad OU mon, it's quite great against Gliscor for instance, but it's certainly dead weight against Togekiss.

No one said counter, at least not me.. I specifically said "checks" for all the overly-educated people about pokemon. xD

 

1 hour ago, MHkaserz said:

It doesn’t necessarily scare Toge out, but it is a very valid check.

 

Edited by MHkaserz
Link to post
6 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

No one said counter, at least not me.. I specifically said "checks" for all the overly-educated people about pokemon. xD

But it's not a check either... just another bait on which Togekiss can set up. It would be a check if in a 1v1 situation it could scare Togekiss away.

Edited by gbwead
Link to post
1 minute ago, gbwead said:

But it's not a check either... just another bait on which Togekiss can set up. It would be a check if in a 1v1 situation it could scare Togekiss away.

idk. Gyro ball + trick room + heal block Bronzong while holding macho brace can deffinitely scare togekiss away.

Link to post
5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

But it's not a check either... just another set up bait on which Togekiss can set up. It would be a check if in a 1v1 situation it could scare Togekiss away.

Sorry sir, a Togekiss, with toxic on it, has an expiration date, specially that even with +4 it is still not 1HKO-ing a Bronzong and so a protect pokemon/smart switches cripple Toge enough.
And a fast attacker with decent damage or priority can kick in afterwards.

And if it carries heal bell, it is another turn where you can re-apply toxic.
You gonna say it carries Roost, Heal Bell, Nasty Plot and Aura Shpere?

 

Edited by MHkaserz
Link to post
1 minute ago, MHkaserz said:

Sorry sir, a Togekiss, with toxic on it, has an expiration date, specially that even with +4 it is still not 1HKO-ing a Bronzong and so a protect pokemon/smart switches cripple Toge enough.
And a fast attacker with decent damage or priority can kick in afterwards.

And if it carries heal bell, it is another turn where you can re-apply toxic.
You gonna say it carries Roost, Heal Bell, Nasty Plot and Aura Shpere?

 

+6 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 64-76 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Link to post
3 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

Sorry sir, a Togekiss, with toxic on it, has an expiration date, specially that even with +4 it is still not 1HKO-ing a Bronzong and so a protect pokemon/smart switches cripple Toge enough.
And a fast attacker with decent damage or priority can kick in afterwards.

And if it carries heal bell, it is another turn where you can re-apply toxic.
You gonna say it carries Roost, Heal Bell, Nasty Plot and Aura Shpere?

 

The most common stall breaker set is Roost/Heal Bell/Nasty Plot/Air Slash which beat your bronzong without losing a single HP or being poisoned.

The Sub set with Sub/NP/Air Slash/Aura Sphere also has great odds of beating your bronzong.

 

It's really not a check sir. 

Link to post
1 minute ago, Zymogen said:
+6 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 64-76 (36.7 - 43.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

A +6... TWO TURNS OF TOXIC WHILE YOU ARE SETTING UP. HAHA! And it still takes 3 turns afterwards.

It seems like you are biased and want to keep it that way, I'm out of here xD

Link to post

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.