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[OU Discussion] Togekiss

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RysPicz   
3 minutes ago, Aard said:

It not rephrasing, its that what you said is illogical.  The equivalent of "Mummy is only a problem on cofagrigus" or "Liquid ooze is only a problem on tentacruel."  MAybe because that's the ONLY pokemon that uses it in competitive play.

 

Unless you're claiming that nu players run dunsparce and togetic.  Both aren't even on the usage chart.

You interpretated it the way it suits you for some unspeakable reason. I'm not surprised it's illogical to you xatu, with you attitude "git gud" and "you have to learn to predict".

 

Serene Grace Blissey is being used in Doubles and sometimes in OU on a CM set, but I'm not surprised you don't realise that xatu. Now get back to the real discussion about the pokemon itself, out of entire post I made there was only one point where I voiced my own opinion in it and yet you chose to avoid it and attack a fact, then back it up with idiocy of dunsparce and togetic.

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Aard   
26 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

You interpretated it the way it suits you for some unspeakable reason. I'm not surprised it's illogical to you xatu, with you attitude "git gud" and "you have to learn to predict".

 

Serene Grace Blissey is being used in Doubles and sometimes in OU on a CM set, but I'm not surprised you don't realise that xatu. Now get back to the real discussion about the pokemon itself, out of entire post I made there was only one point where I voiced my own opinion in it and yet you chose to avoid it and attack a fact, then back it up with idiocy of dunsparce and togetic.

You'd rather have a meltdown and go off about how sg blissey is viable instead of  just admit you thought there were other good pokes with serene grace.  This list you keep of people you've never been able to beat isn't healthy either.

 

I want to discuss if togekiss is broken too, but I seriously am concerned about the lack of quality discussion.  Here's what I think its missing with regard to most of the matchups: 

 

Scarf magnezone is a low risk switch in that togekiss has to predict right twice on to beat.  With two players of equal skill, that is a 25% chance of brute forcing your way though a magnezone with togekiss.  This is every set too, it covers substitute since magnezone can volt switch to break it and gain has the option of a flying or fighting/fire resist after.  It covers nasty plot, it covers aura and flamethrower, it covers roost.  On any set togekiss has to outpredict Magnezone twice in 1 battle to beat it. After rocks, magnezone 1hkos togekiss. 

 

Pointing out that togekiss has to predict right more often than magnezone to win the matchup is not me saying "git gud".  If you are losing 75% of your predictions in a battle, you will probably lose even with a better built team.  Making ban decisions off of scenarios where the poke wins after multiple correct predictions just isn't how it should be done.

 

 

Edited by Aard

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Laz   
On 2/3/2019 at 5:35 PM, RysPicz said:

I'm not surprised it's illogical to you xatu, with you attitude "git gud" and "you have to learn to predict".

 

1 hour ago, sweendogforums said:

if you've got moderate prediction skills; and put more than 30 seconds into team building instead of being the smogon faithful.

Get better at the game.

@RysPicz lol.

On topic, Togekiss is fine with team preview, let's just make staff rush and give it to us asap, it has been forever m8, banning it would be a step backwards imo.

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RysPicz   
36 minutes ago, Laz said:

On topic, Togekiss is fine with team preview, let's just make staff rush and give it to us asap, it has been forever m8, banning it would be a step backwards imo.

I totally agree. Implementing team preview defo would be the best for not only Togekiss but entire game as a whole, but there's no way we can see it coming, especially when it's been over a year ever since we started asking for it. Dealing with something problematic and then possibly reverting the decision, should the team preview greet this game, seems like the way to go- at least for now.

 

I've spectated few fights from the latest OU CC and I have seen one Togekiss- in finals, though I guess I shouldn't really base my conclusions on that kind of tour, so I took a bit wider perspective.

 

Why Togekiss was not broken in the B/W metagame?

Permanent weather. This way Togekiss barely had a chance to switch in, due to STAB Surfs/ Hydropumps and other rain-related moves flying around. Same goes for sun, obviously.


General powercreep meta. Keep in mind, this is a metagame where Kyurem-Black, a 170 base attack Dragon with Ice STAB was OU. And so was Thundurus-T, which is a 145 base special attack mon with access to Nasty Plot.


Multiple checks and counters from defensive side. B/W had Rotoms, Latis, Heatran, Zapdos, Raikou, Jirachi or Mew, some of them being super hard counters (Zapdos, Rotom) and some being very solid checks to any Togekiss set.

 

Due to lack of permanent weather and lack of presence of multiple top tier offensive threats (lemme name a bunch: Garchomp, Infernape, Keldeo, Kyurem-Black, Lando-T, Latis, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Kyurem, Staraptor), we are left with a lot of slow, bulky mons and we are pretty much forced to play in a defensive metagame. Look at the OU tier. We have typically offensive mons being played defensively because of that. Salamence, an offensive powerhouse is played as a defensive roost defog wall (imagine if we had Zapdos). People are playing freaking Dragonite, a behemoth with 134 base attack as a wall despite it's lack of Multiscale to deal with Togekiss only, because I do not see any other pokemon in the metagame that it deals with reliably.

 

 

I'm kinda leaning on the side for getting rid of it, though mainly because it's a mon that does not require any skill to be played but I've yet to come with any hard argument (can we have some OU tournaments pls?) so I'm not gonna unambigously say yes or no, at least not yet.

 

Just food for thoughts for now.

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.

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octet   

I may be a little late to this discussion, but banning togekiss? Really? There are a lot of counters and checks to in the current OU tier.

 

 

Hippowdon. (Hippowdon can destroy any Togekiss, it’s not threatened by a Thunder Wave, and it can recover with Slack Off if you find yourself being worn down too much. The sandstorm also should help you take it down since it will negate Toge’s leftovers recovery.)

 

Jolteon. (Pretty hard counter, an air slash doesn't particularly threaten it and a thunderbolt can pick off just about any togekiss in 1-2 moves.)

 

Cloyster. (Again, can pick off just about any togekiss without taking too much damage. Possibly set up a shell smash in the process? Watch out though since that will lower your defenses, if without a white herb.)

 

Volcarona. (I was a bit hesitant to put this one on the list, but I’ve seen Volcaronas take Togekisses down before, especially if they carry leftovers. If you can get a Quiver Dance up, you’re pretty much set.)

 

Tyranitar/Excadrill. (Again a bit risky, since Togekiss can carry Aura Sphere, but most of them don’t and you can scope out it’s set pretty easily. Like Hippowdon, sand is your friend!)

 

Tentacruel. (A full special defense Tenta will surely threaten any Toge, especially with a Sludge Bomb poison. This is more of a check than a counter because it will rely on some luck)


 

Some tips for dealing with this pesky flincher:

Be conscious of the roost: Since roost removes the flying type from Togekiss, make sure you’re predicting this and attacking accordingly.

 

Watch out for Thunder Wave: Paralyzation can cripple a sweeper due to the speed drop, and it increases the chance you won’t be able to move from 60% to 70%.
 

Set up Stealth Rocks!! They’ll wear down any incoming Togekiss and make it much harder for them to switch into attacks.
 

Toxic that Toge: Toxic can seriously threaten a stall Toge, it can’t stay in as long and it has trouble recovering.
 

Taunt: Taunting can also stop a Toge from recovering as well as paralyzing with Twave.
 

Sand: Togekisses do not like sandstorms, it hinders their ability to recover, and they go down a lot quicker with that in mind.


 

Another point I would like to address, I hear a lot of people saying Togekiss takes no skill.

This just isn’t true. While it does take less prediction than your typical OU pokemon, you still have to time roosts correctly and know when to Thunder Wave.

 

 

In conclusion, no, Togekiss doesn’t belong in Ubers. It is however an annoying mon which anyone can play pretty easily.

There are simply too many pokemon in the tier that counter this mon that it can be considered an Uber.


 

Thank you for listening!


 

octet/

Edited by octet

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razimove   
12 minutes ago, octet said:

Hippowdon. (Hippowdon can destroy any Togekiss, it’s not threatened by a Thunder Wave, and it can recover with Slack Off if you find yourself being worn down too much. The sandstorm also should help you take it down since it will negate Toge’s leftovers recovery.)

In no way is this even a counter, togekiss outspeeds, therefor he lacks a way of fighting back, it can recover yes, but so can a lot of monsters, yet flinching prevents that. 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 129-153 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 88-105 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

great counter you have there.

 

12 minutes ago, octet said:

Cloyster. (Again, can pick off just about any togekiss without taking too much damage.)

This is one of those overly hyped mons, that is actually complete garbage. 

 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 184-217 (146 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

do I need to mention, he's outsped?

12 minutes ago, octet said:

Volcarona. (I was a bit hesitant to put this one on the list, but I’ve seen Volcaronas take Togekisses down before, especially if they carry leftovers. If you can get a Quiver Dance up, you’re pretty much set.)

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 188-224 (117.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 122-146 (63.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

another great counter.

 

12 minutes ago, octet said:

Tentacruel. (A full special defense Tenta will surely threaten any Toge, especially with a Sludge Bomb poison. This is more of a check than a counter because it will rely on some luck)

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 64-76 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 57.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

 

with no self recovery, aka in no ways a counter.


Ttar is very close to a proper counter, but then again, is outsped and aura sphere is problematic to him.

 

+2 4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-184 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

that is a sassy ttar and on sand. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by razimove

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octet   

So, I'm confused. My list is based around a Togekiss with NO stat boosts, yours seems to be based on one with a Nasty plot up already.

Seems a bit unfair, no? Not EVERY Togekiss has nasty plot, or gets a chance to set it up without taking ANY damage whatsoever.

 

If you revise your list, without taking in to account Nasty Plot I think it'll look a bit more fair.

Thanks,

 

 

octet/

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razimove   
8 minutes ago, octet said:

So, I'm confused. My list is based around a Togekiss with NO stat boosts, yours seems to be based on one with a Nasty plot up already.

Seems a bit unfair, no? Not EVERY Togekiss has nasty plot, or gets a chance to set it up without taking ANY damage whatsoever.

 

If you revise your list, without taking in to account Nasty Plot I think it'll look a bit more fair.

Thanks,

 

 

octet/

So you're expecting a togekiss to not boost on every opportunity, and you hold on a variable that isn't even relevant for the mons you speak of. 

 

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 93-109 (73.8 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 146-174 (115.8 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

have fun switching in, oh wait you expect to outspeed after right? With that super awesome base 70 speed vs base 80 speed.

 

__

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 66-78 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

you have no chance of winning in any scenario with hippo.

__

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 33-39 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Tentacruel Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 54-64 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 84.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

guess which one has a reliable recovery move, which one doenst

 

__

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 80-96 (38.6 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

she can safely withdraw, with only 40% damage from pursuit, and either way she outspeeds, so if there's rocks on the field, and she aura spheres on the switch you struggle with your 'counter'

_

 

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 96-114 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

good luck switching volcarona into air slash and expecting to win.


Happy now? You should search the definition of counter, at most some of them are checks, and others are complete jokes, but yeah, none of those is an actual counter.

 

 

Edited by razimove

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suigin   
52 minutes ago, octet said:

Toxic that Toge: Toxic can seriously threaten a stall Toge, it can’t stay in as long and it has trouble recovering.

Most Togekiss are either stallbreakers (Air Slash, Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Roost) or Sub attackers (Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Sub, Nasty Plot) with the odd scarf user and Twave spammer used rarely but effectively.

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Zymogen   
13 minutes ago, octet said:

So, I'm confused. My list is based around a Togekiss with NO stat boosts, yours seems to be based on one with a Nasty plot up already.

Seems a bit unfair, no? Not EVERY Togekiss has nasty plot, or gets a chance to set it up without taking ANY damage whatsoever.

 

If you revise your list, without taking in to account Nasty Plot I think it'll look a bit more fair.

Thanks,

 

 

octet/

You based your claims on the Thunder Wave set - which we all have publicly expressed is one of Togekiss' least powerful sets 

 

The majority of this discussion has been solely around any variation of the Nasty Plot sets.

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octet   
Just now, Zymogen said:

You based your claims on the Thunder Wave set - which we all have publicly expressed is one of Togekiss' least powerful sets 

 

The majority of this discussion has been solely around any variation of the Nasty Plot sets.

No, I'm fine with Nasty plot set, I just don't like assuming that it's ALREADY set up a nasty plot.

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Zymogen   
Just now, octet said:

No, I'm fine with Nasty plot set, I just don't like assuming that it's ALREADY set up a nasty plot.

Well the situations that you are describing would lead one to believe that the "counters" are switching into Togekiss which, more often than not, is free to set up a Nasty Plot on said switch. Even without a boost, a lot of the Pokemon that you listed have a difficult time preventing the Togekiss from setting up and/or forcing it out - especially the Sub/Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere/Air Slash set.

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octet   
4 minutes ago, suigin said:

Most Togekiss are either stallbreakers (Air Slash, Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Roost) or Sub attackers (Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Sub, Nasty Plot) with the odd scarf user and Twave spammer used rarely but effectively.

You're right, I forgot to consider heal bell. That's definitely a solid answer to the toxic argument.

 

 

As for Razimove's arguments, I will give you cloyster, it's no match for a Toge that carries Aura Sphere.

 

24 minutes ago, razimove said:

__ 

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 80-96 (38.6 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

  

she can safely withdraw, with only 40% damage from pursuit, and either way she outspeeds, so if there's rocks on the field, and she aura spheres on the switch you struggle with your 'counter' 

_ 

252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 384-452 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A stone edge threatens just about every Togekiss set. Not to say this isn't slightly risky as Stone Edge doesn't always hit but it's still fairly reliable.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Well the situations that you are describing would lead one to believe that the "counters" are switching into Togekiss which, more often than not, is free to set up a Nasty Plot on said switch. Even without a boost, a lot of the Pokemon that you listed have a difficult time preventing the Togekiss from setting up and/or forcing it out - especially the Sub/Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere/Air Slash set.

Fair point - these mons are almost always going to be switching into something rather than being sent out first against the toge. Still, a bit unfair to say they'll always go for a Nasty Plot IMO.

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razimove   

You even quoted the part where I spoke of rocks, and aura sphere on ttar entrance, sigh I give up.

 

 

 

 

4F says everything here that you might want to know if you care to read Octet, this is relevant information, that might allow you to understand why togekiss is so dominant in our meta.

Edited by razimove

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octet   
2 minutes ago, razimove said:

You even quoted the part where I spoke of rocks, and aura sphere on ttar entrance, sigh I give up.

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 144-172 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

That's using your EV's.

So a Ttar comes into an initial Aura Sphere and takes Stealth Rock damage.

Still gives a chance for Ttar to take it out with Stone Edge right?

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razimove   
9 minutes ago, octet said:

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 144-172 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

That's using your EV's.

So a Ttar comes into an initial Aura Sphere and takes Stealth Rock damage.

Still gives a chance for Ttar to take it out with Stone Edge right?

only togekiss set that actually stays on ttar, is sub, and ttar loses to sub.

 

6 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 76-91 (39.5 - 47.3%) -- 48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 93-109 (48.4 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

 

 

this is a roost togekiss, now tell me, what has more pp, stone edge or roost.

 

252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 37-45 (19.2 - 23.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

 

double those percentages, and you have the hp he will deal when togekiss switches out, no way she stays in, knowing he's scarfed. Now, if this is your ttar, and she is behind a sub WHICH is somewhat common aswell,

 

4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 112-132 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

she will make your jolly ttar cry.

Now tell me how is this even a counter.

 

There's only 2 sets I find viable on Ttar in this meta.

 

Scarf Ttar as a revenge killer, and wall ttar, cband ttar is really cool and all, but due to his base speed and weaknesses, he struggles to perform well, this is of course, just my opinion once again. And isn't even relevant to this discussion, but just decided to let it here.

Edited by razimove

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Pacc   

I'm not going to stick around and debate, but some food for thought: Golbat actually does a pretty good job of handling togekiss. At least from my encounters. 

it has access to: 

inner focus to prevent flinching

roost for health

brave bird to break sub

haze for nasty plot

toxic if you want to get really stally

 

It also outspeeds Toge and it's actually pretty useful against a bunch of other common threats in OU as well. Probably someone could make a set to beat it (extra sensory togekiss?) but it does seem to handle all of the currently used/discussed/feared sets fairly well. And if you're making a toge-set specifically to counter one mon, you're going to have to sacrifice something elsewhere, and you've kindof already beat it. 

 

Final point...everyone seems caught up on the bad sides of togekiss (if you consider it bad). I feel like the good aspects and what he brings to OU tier as an additional stall counter should be considered as well. Sure, there are other options to counter stall, but keeping him adds a bit more diversity to it, and it would suck to lose another pretty cool pokemon if it's unnecessary. 

RIP dugtrio 

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RysPicz   

If we really will have to reach for such an obscure mon as Golbat just to counter Togekiss, then it should be banned right away. 

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49 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

If we really will have to reach for such an obscure mon as Golbat just to counter Togekiss, then it should be banned right away. 

Golbat for ou! C:

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Minks   

Stop banning mons & implement team preview is the best thing i've read in this thread so far. 

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octet   

Okay, I slept on it. Togekiss is definitely a bigger issue than I thought.

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

If we really will have to reach for such an obscure mon as Golbat just to counter Togekiss, then it should be banned right away. 

100% agree, that's pretty ridiculous.

 

What do  you guys think about banning Aura Sphere and/or Nasty Plot on Togekiss? I think it would make it a bit more balanced, but it's still an issue.

 

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8 minutes ago, octet said:

Okay, I slept on it. Togekiss is definitely a bigger issue than I thought.

100% agree, that's pretty ridiculous.

 

What do  you guys think about banning Aura Sphere and/or Nasty Plot on Togekiss? I think it would make it a bit more balanced, but it's still an issue.

 

They wont ever do a ban like that. You can’t ban one move on a mon and not others.

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octet   
1 minute ago, Impulse5095 said:

They wont ever do a ban like that. You can’t ban one move on a mon and not others.

Nasty plot is banned on Cofagrigus as well as Mismagius. They already *have* done a ban like that.

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RysPicz   
15 minutes ago, octet said:

Okay, I slept on it. Togekiss is definitely a bigger issue than I thought.

100% agree, that's pretty ridiculous.

 

What do  you guys think about banning Aura Sphere and/or Nasty Plot on Togekiss? I think it would make it a bit more balanced, but it's still an issue.

 

It wouldn't accomplish much imo. We did something like that with Snorlax few years back (banned curse on it) but shortly after ended up banning the mon itself. I think Snorlax reached 70% usage back then, though, while Togekiss' usage isn't alarming by any chance (15% means it's being used often but it's not like Incineroar's usage in VGC). The way I see it; the pokemon itself in this particular metagame is the problem, it's combination of base stats, speed, ability, movepool, bulk paired with the metagame's most common tendencies (running lots of slow, bulky pokemons such as Scizor/ Conk and then a lot of walls) which are also coming from the availability of the pokes in our meta.

 

4 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:
15 minutes ago, octet said:

They wont ever do a ban like that. You can’t ban one move on a mon and not others.

Like I mentioned, such a ban did occurr in the past and it didn't accomplish anything.

 

1 minute ago, octet said:

Nasty plot is banned on Cofagrigus as well as Mismagius. They already *have* done a ban like that.

Yes, but this move is officially not available on these two mons due to lack of Spiritomb in PokeMMO. Only semi-comp prizes from events can have a move like that- therefore, player using such a move in the battle would have an unfair competitive advantage (which is a bannable offense).

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.

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