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[OU Discussion] Togekiss

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2 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

was it you who said they'd never used a togekiss before? forgive me if i'm mistaken, genuine question

Yes, I never used Togekiss in PokeMMO OU.

But I never had a problem with Togekiss in OU too.

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jcolas   
1 minute ago, Kamowanthere said:

Yes, I never used Togekiss in PokeMMO OU.

But I never had a problem with Togekiss in OU too.

same, just for the record

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RysPicz   
3 minutes ago, Kamowanthere said:

If you read about Choice Band Tyranitar again, It can survive to Aura Sphere and finish it off.

Chansey Blissey has access to Toxic and Seismic Toss

Darmanitan is safe switch to Air Slash if it is at full HP, no need to use it as revenge killer

Tyranitar is a check. It cannot come into battle consistently to check Togekiss every single time, unless Togekiss lacks Aura Sphere. Tyranitar has no reliable recovery either to take hits from Togekiss during the whole battle.

Chansey and Blissey are setup baits, it has been mentioned many times in this thread. Please don't make me repeat myself again.

Darmanitan is a check as well. It can switch into Togekiss maybe twice. Tyranitar is more legit due to Sandstorm Special Def boost.

 

These are not counters. I gave you a definition of counter earlier.

 

2 minutes ago, jcolas said:

yes, Tbolt have a little something  called 10% of paralysis. since you can't really be killed by togekiss, you have more than enough try to make it viable, fun like anti togekiss only consider hax when they want.

Are you seriously justifying Lanturn's viability of countering Togekiss based on 10% paralyze chance from TBolt?

Edited by RysPicz

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Zymogen   
5 minutes ago, jcolas said:

yes, Tbolt have a little something  called 10% of paralysis

pretty shaky counter if you're relying on a 10% chance to paralyse a pokemon which frequently carries heal bell lol

 

5 minutes ago, jcolas said:

since you can't really be killed by togekiss, you have more than enough try to make it viable, fun like anti togekiss only consider hax when they want.

+6 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 84-100 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Since Lanturn has no reliable recovery, I'd be inclined to disagree

Edited by Zymogen

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pachima   
2 minutes ago, Kamowanthere said:

If you read about Choice Band Tyranitar again, It can survive to Aura Sphere and finish it off.

Chansey Blissey has access to Toxic and Seismic Toss

Darmanitan is safe switch to Air Slash if it is at full HP, no need to use it as revenge killer

I apologize but 252 hp 252 speed togekiss 2hkoes and outspeeds tyranitar, therefore ttar is not, by deffinition, a counter.  Same can be said for Darmanitan, since darmanitan doesnt ohko 252 hp variants, which are actually common.

Chansey/Blissey are indeed set up bait for heal bell togekisses, unless some weird set like light screen, which even then would rely on flinching.

Now, its true those can counter SOME of togekiss´s sets, but countering isnt what that means. Countering means able to switch in against a foe and win 100% of the time(Not counting hax), assuming foe has some common set.

Just to clarify :)

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Just now, RysPicz said:

Tyranitar is a check. It cannot come into battle consistently to check Togekiss every single time.

Chansey and Blissey are setup baits, it has been mentioned many times in this thread. Please don't make me repeat myself again.

Darmanitan is a check as well. It can switch into Togekiss maybe twice. Tyranitar is more legit due to Sandstorm Special Def boost.

 

These are not counters. I gave you a definition of counter earlier.

Right, thank you.

But I said that because you were talking using Darmanitan as revenge killer and Aura Sphere stops Tyranitar

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1 minute ago, pachima said:

I apologize but 252 hp 252 speed togekiss 2hkoes and outspeeds tyranitar, therefore ttar is not, by deffinition, a counter. 

If you predict Air Slash first turn, Aura Sphere won't finish it second turn.

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jcolas   

 

18 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Are you seriously justifying Lanturn's viability of countering Togekiss based on 10% paralyze chance from TBolt?

let's look at it this way, you have 7 chace to do that 10% due to the 7 hit ko from togekiss, 1 turn out of 2 have to be spent roosting, so you go to at least 14 chance of that 10% now, on the roost turn the lanturn regain hps form leftover, so you add a few extra turn of Tbolt, no need to run the exact calculation but quickly: let's say 20 turn ko and that's 87.9% total chance to paralyses eventually, by then it would also run out of roost pp, just saying

 

Edited by jcolas

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Takens   
10 hours ago, suigin said:

Stop suggesting that, it's not happening.

Why not banning it for like a week or two just to see how the meta changes and depending on results you guys make a decision?

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suigin   
7 minutes ago, Takens said:

Why not banning it for like a week or two just to see how the meta changes and depending on results you guys make a decision?

It'll all depend on our decision in the next TC meeting. A week or two also seems like a pretty small time sample.

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Takens   
1 hour ago, suigin said:

It'll all depend on our decision in the next TC meeting. A week or two also seems like a pretty small time sample.

what's the usual amount of time usually being taken for testing a poke and see if it should be ban or not?

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44 minutes ago, Takens said:

what's the usual amount of time usually being taken for testing a poke and see if it should be ban or not?

a month, maybe two

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11 hours ago, suigin said:

Stop suggesting that, it's not happening.

You guys removed "Draco Meteor" from Hydreigon's learnset under the name "preventing it to be uber"

So you can do that change to Togekiss "preventing it to be uber"

 

Why not?

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Munya   

One is a learnset change that effects a single pokemon another is a mechanic change that effects every pokemon that can learn and potentially use that move, entirely different things.

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FNTCZ   
18 hours ago, RysPicz said:

These are not counters. I gave you a definition of counter earlier.

And that's not a problem. Pokemon as a game has deviated from the concept of a counter as the generations went on thanks to the overall powercreep. what we need is not to ban togekiss but to get team preview.

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ImFunk   
8 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

what we need is not to ban togekiss but to get team preview.

Team preview would make dealing with Togekiss a lot easier but we have no control over what the developers do, so we can't really sit around hoping for something that should have been here 14 months ago. Team preview also doesn't fix one of the main issues being the constant spam of Air Slash flinches. 

 

Banning it now and coming back to this topic when we have the necessary features seems like the best option, or at the very least a temporary ban and see how the meta changes. 

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Aard   
7 hours ago, Munya said:

One is a learnset change that effects a single pokemon another is a mechanic change that effects every pokemon that can learn and potentially use that move, entirely different things.

Yes, if we remove serene grace function it will effect Blissey and we can't have that. 

 

Complex bans are dumb, but why are we pretending removing serene grace function would do anything to any poke other than togekiss and maybe togetic in nu?

 

Arguments here are just so.. how did the logic jump to lowering the flinch chance on air slash across all pokes instead of just removing what people find to be a single problematic ability on a single poke?  Why?

 

A lot of these pro-ban arguments have a similar amount of effort put into the logic and its not always easy to come in and suggest the solution when you start from a premise that's so far off from reality.  You can see what I'm talking about with this air slash complex ban.  Somehow the thread got trapped into arguing about an air slash flinch rate ban over 20 posts for 2 days when any individual thinking about this by themselves would've seen the serene grace removal option quickly and only weighed that with full ban and no ban.  I think there's a real question as to the quality of debate on this thread.  What is this air slash debacle and why did it happen?

Edited by Aard

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RysPicz   

Ask yourselves few questions:

 

Is Serene Grace broken as ability on more than just one pokemon?

Is Air Slash as move broken on more than just one pokemon?

 

It kinda reminds me of Snorlax discussion few years back and people considering Body Slam and then Paralyze chance to be the root of the problem, then the Curse move itself (and it did end up with a complex ban on Curse for a while).

 

Air Slash, powered up by Serene Grace isn't potentially broken on Togekiss. Complex ban won't make a sense here- neither move nor ability are causing the problem on any other pokemon in any other tier.

 

It's Togekiss alone that is problematic: The combination it's typing, bulk, movepool, ability, speed, power (120 sp atk HUrts) and flinching potential and that is why it is being discussed right now. Let's stick to talking about the pokemon alone rather than suggesting potential complex bans, which- from my experience- aren't doing anything good for the meta in the long run, plus they set a precedent for future.

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Aard   
30 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Ask yourselves few questions:

Complex ban won't make a sense here- neither move nor ability are causing the problem on any other pokemon in any other tier.

Serene grace isn't used on anything else relevant in any tier.

 

One makes more sense than the other though I disagree with both.  My point is its bad we've been talking exclusively about the one that makes less sense.

Edited by Aard

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RysPicz   
5 minutes ago, Aard said:

Serene grace isn't used on anything else relevant in any tier.

Sorry xatu, but I'm not sure why re-phrasing my sentence (the one you just quoted) is any productive to this discussion?

 

 

 

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.

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Aard   
Just now, RysPicz said:

Sorry xatu, but I'm not sure why re-phrasing my sentence (the one you just quoted) is any productive to this discussion?

It not rephrasing, its that what you said is illogical.  The equivalent of "Mummy is only a problem on cofagrigus" or "Liquid ooze is only a problem on tentacruel."  MAybe because that's the ONLY pokemon that uses it in competitive play.

 

Unless you're claiming that nu players run dunsparce and togetic.  Both aren't even on the usage chart.

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suigin   

Again, drop the complex ban topic, drop the nerfing specific moves/abilities topic. Focus on whether Togekiss is unhealthy for the metagame or not and why.

The measures to take care of it if it is will fall on the TC.

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