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[OU Discussion] Togekiss

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Bubaili   

As I said, Togekiss isnt strong just beause of his 60% flinching otherwise it wouldnt be that troublesome. It got good stats and a nice moveset. Im ready to bet it would still be played. 

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kiwi   
Just now, suigin said:

The only thing that assures a flinch is Fake Out. 30% is a Scald burn, 30% is Focus Blast's miss rate, it'd still be perfectly viable in my opinion.

It's a good option if you want to keep the pokemon outside of ubers but being a complex ban and seeing the case of Dug and Wob I don't think thats going to occur. Still being only my thoughts so dont mind me at all.

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Minks   

This thread only exists because of flinches/serene grace, pretending it's based on its good stats or movepool or whatever is just lying or kidding yourself. 90% of people doing MM/ OU tours are using 4 walls, removing Togekiss would be more unhealthy than keeping it imo.

 

The popular rain/sand teams also beat it quite easily. Just do better. 

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5 hours ago, Minks said:

[...blablabla...] 90% of people doing MM/ OU tours are using 4 walls,[...blablabla...]

Are you even serious? Are we playing the same game? The meta is ultra offense sided, wtf are you even talking about 

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Bubaili   
6 hours ago, Minks said:

This thread only exists because of flinches/serene grace, pretending it's based on its good stats or movepool or whatever is just lying or kidding yourself. 90% of people doing MM/ OU tours are using 4 walls, removing Togekiss would be more unhealthy than keeping it imo.

 

The popular rain/sand teams also beat it quite easily. Just do better. 

U dont seem to understand english or u cant read properly. The topic is about serena grace/flinch yes, and I suggested to nerf the flinch rate to 30% maximum to make things healthier because even with a 30% flinch rate Togekiss would still be a good mon thank to its stats and movepool. 

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I think that Togekiss ban is not necessary but if you want a better META and better experience of the game maybe you should try a test ban or at least (NERF FLINCH RATE).
The Togekiss set: (Sub / Nastyplot / Aurasphere / Air Slash) is almost "Unstoppable". As the only the mains counters for this (Tyranitar / Magnezone) Become useless because you need to break the sub first and then kill the togekiss.
Ask @gbwead i was the 1st player to complain about this pokemon and now i always run teams with at least 1 togekiss counter. You should try a Milotic Timid (full Speed with HAZE) . The META is like that we just need to adapt.
 

252 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 82-98 (51.2 - 61.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 51-61 (30 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.

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Bubaili   
1 hour ago, PinkLabel said:


I think that Togekiss ban is not necessary but if you want a better META and better experience of the game maybe you should try a test ban or at least (NERF FLINCH RATE).
The Togekiss set: (Sub / Nastyplot / Aurasphere / Air Slash) is almost "Unstoppable". As the only the mains counters for this (Tyranitar / Magnezone) Become useless because you need to break the sub first and then kill the togekiss.
Ask @gbwead i was the 1st player to complain about this pokemon and now i always run teams with at least 1 togekiss counter. You should try a Milotic Timid (full Speed with HAZE) . The META is like that we just need to adapt.
 

252 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 82-98 (51.2 - 61.2%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 51-61 (30 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.

If Togekiss got scarf and flinch u 3 times in a row, your milotic is dead you know. It may counters NP build but not the scarf one. His 60% flinch rate and his build versatility makes it hard to get prepared for. 

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Munya   

We aren't changing mechanics of the game just to make one pokemon less annoying, so lets shift the discussion away from any thoughts of that.

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:43 AM, Bubaili said:

As I said, Togekiss isnt strong just beause of his 60% flinching otherwise it wouldnt be that troublesome. It got good stats and a nice moveset. Im ready to bet it would still be played. 

lol yes it is. 90% of the reason to use togekiss is exactly that.

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1 hour ago, Munya said:

We aren't changing mechanics of the game just to make one pokemon less annoying, so lets shift the discussion away from any thoughts of that.

@hydreigon

 

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Takens   
2 hours ago, Munya said:

We aren't changing mechanics of the game just to make one pokemon less annoying, so lets shift the discussion away from any thoughts of that.

Then ban that shit, i want a meta not based on flinching to sweep. Something requiring more skills than just pressing a move and pray to flinch every turn.

you never know what set a togekiss will run because of its move pool. i do think a meta without togekiss will be better for any playstyle.

 

btw i remember someone saying Dugtrio would be having a nerf and being unbanned what happened with that?

Edited by Takens

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Bubaili   
6 minutes ago, soyhector said:

lol yes it is. 90% of the reason to use togekiss is exactly that.

U dont understand my point. If Togekiss had only one build with this 60% flinch, it wouldnt be a problem that much, there would be counters to it and end of the problem.  But cz he can run many different builds which all get boosted with this 60% flinch rate, thats what makes it too strong. You cant be prepared to every of his builds.

 

1 hour ago, Munya said:

We aren't changing mechanics of the game just to make one pokemon less annoying, so lets shift the discussion away from any thoughts of that.

Thats what you already did with Nasty plot Cofa, Misdreavus, Outrage dragons, Draco meteor Hydrei. I dont see how nerfing serena grace or limiting the flinch rate to 30% would be that different. 

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Munya   
18 minutes ago, Takens said:

Then ban that shit, i want a meta not based on flinching to sweep. Something requiring more skills than just pressing a move and pray to flinch every turn.

you never know what set a togekiss will run because of its move pool. i do think a meta without togekiss will be better for any playstyle.

 

btw i remember someone saying Dugtrio would be having a nerf and being unbanned what happened with that?

It is planned for dugtrio to have its stats reverted back to pre-gen VII iirc, when that will happen we will have to wait and see I guess.

20 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

@hydreigon

 

 

12 minutes ago, Bubaili said:

U dont understand my point. If Togekiss had only one build with this 60% flinch, it wouldnt be a problem that much, there would be counters to it and end of the problem.  But cz he can run many different builds which all get boosted with this 60% flinch rate, thats what makes it too strong. You cant be prepared to every of his builds.

 

Thats what you already did with Nasty plot Cofa, Misdreavus, Outrage dragons, Draco meteor Hydrei. I dont see how nerfing serena grace or limiting the flinch rate to 30% would be that different. 

We didn't remove Nasty plot from Cofa/Misdreavous, they just don't have the breeding chains needed to obtain those moves yet.  As for hydreigon, that is not a mechanic change, that is a learnset change.

 

Anyways this is horribly off topic, if you would like to talk about any of those others, feel free to PM me or something, as this isn't the place for it.

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14 minutes ago, Bubaili said:

U dont understand my point. If Togekiss had only one build with this 60% flinch, it wouldnt be a problem that much, there would be counters to it and end of the problem.  But cz he can run many different builds which all get boosted with this 60% flinch rate, thats what makes it too strong. You cant be prepared to every of his builds.

Why is that "your point"? that was one of the points that started this discussion. You said without the RNG ability people would still use Togekiss, and that was the argument I refuted.

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Bubaili   
18 minutes ago, soyhector said:

Why is that "your point"? that was one of the points that started this discussion. You said without the RNG ability people would still use Togekiss, and that was the argument I refuted.

Damn are u misunderstanding everything on purpose? When i talked about "my point", I was talking about the fact that even with 30% flinch rate on Air Slash, Togekiss would still be playable because of its stats and many possible builds. Read previous posts before to comment. I keep repeating the same things.

Edited by Bubaili

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Minks   

 

10 hours ago, ApacheHelicopter said:

Are you even serious? Are we playing the same game? The meta is ultra offense sided, wtf are you even talking about 

im serious yes, i guess we disagree then. Either way, like i said before, if you want to disregard the fact that Togekiss is a good option to have around to stop walls, offensive rain/sand teams still beat it.

9 hours ago, Bubaili said:

U dont seem to understand english or u cant read properly. The topic is about serena grace/flinch yes, and I suggested to nerf the flinch rate to 30% maximum to make things healthier because even with a 30% flinch rate Togekiss would still be a good mon thank to its stats and movepool. 

i can read perfectly fine thank you, i just chose to ignore your stupid suggestion.

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FNTCZ   
7 hours ago, Takens said:

Then ban that shit, i want a meta not based on flinching to sweep.

For you to be flinched swept you need to have no pokemon over 145 speed (even less, considering most ppl dont even run max speed toge) so you'd basically be playing stall without an answer to togekiss, i see no reason why you shouldnt be swept in this scenario since it directly derivates from bad teambuilding.

 

7 hours ago, Takens said:

i do think a meta without togekiss will be better for any playstyle.

I respectfully disagree. Makes stall braindead and takes away a good mon for balance and offensive builds

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gbwead   

How many mons in OU right now can outspeed and OHKO a 252 HP 252 speed Timid Togekiss?

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RysPicz   
Just now, gbwead said:

How many mons in OU right now can outspeed and OHKO a 252 HP 252 speed Timid Togekiss?

Jolteon and that's with Choice Specs. Life orb version might do it after taking rocks.

Scarf TTar can do it with Stone Edge (doesn't need rocks, just needs stone edge to hit pretty much)

CB/ Life orb Darmanitan oneshots it

Spoiler
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 232-274 (120.8 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's it probably.

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Aard   
2 hours ago, gbwead said:

How many mons in OU right now can outspeed and OHKO a 252 HP 252 speed Timid Togekiss?

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 186-218 (96.8 - 113.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in rain: 237-281 (123.4 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss in Rain: 168-198 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 186-218 (96.8 - 113.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 191-226 (99.4 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Scarf Magnezone Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss in rain: 168-200 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

 

Mienshao is close:

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 31-38 (16.1 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 151-179 (78.6 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Pory-z needs the download boost from somewhere to get it:

+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 212-250 (110.4 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Mamoswine is a speedtie:

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 198-237 (103.1 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Some UU stuff viable in ou:

252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 174-206 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 216-254 (112.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

If rocks are up,  the list gets a lot longer.  Really, the list should be made with rocks.

Don't see why the 1hkos matter either when togekiss can't 1hko back or outspeed a lot of things that 2hko it.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aard

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pachima   
7 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:

Bulky excadrill where are you in these calcs?

dead with aura sphere.

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8 hours ago, pachima said:

dead with aura sphere.

Hhmmm. The calcs I just did for aura are not even a guaranteed 3hko. Even if you choice specs Togekiss and hit excadrill on the switch you don’t ko it. 

 

Maybe im doing it wrong

 

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