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[OU Discussion] Togekiss


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7 hours ago, pachima said:

Gengar, hydreigon, Salamence, etc etc etc etc dont substitute in a forced switch, and proceed to flinch the hell out of the mon that is now regretting its trainer for using it. 

Then guess what? You still have a togekiss under substitute meaning that you need at least 2 faster pokemons to even have a chance to take it down.

Gengar doesn’t sub.....really I must be playing a different game where Gengar doesn’t sub and cause mass chaos and togekiss has 8 different movesets and can run them all at once. The mons I listed was to prove that all of them have different sets and cripple a team if you think it is the wrong set. But I didn’t think I would have to explain that.

 

Keep rocks on the field

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Just now, Impulse5095 said:

Gengar doesn’t sub.....really I must be playing a different game where Gengar doesn’t sub and cause mass chaos and togekiss has 8 different movesets and can run them all at once. The mons I listed was to prove that all of them have different sets and cripple a team if you think it is the wrong set. But I didn’t think I would have to explain that.

 

Keep rocks on the field

I dont think you are following. Gengar subs can be played around with skill.

Togekiss Subs cant unless you use magnezone/jolteon which are trapped by dugtrio or you risk the 60% flinch everytime.

Togekiss isnt broken in the op sense of the word, but it removes a lot of a players´s control of the match over rng and thats uncompetitive.

I hope I made myself clear.

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Just now, pachima said:

I dont think you are following. Gengar subs can be played around with skill.

Togekiss Subs cant unless you use magnezone/jolteon which are trapped by dugtrio or you risk the 60% flinch everytime.

Togekiss isnt broken in the op sense of the word, but it removes a lot of a players´s control of the match over rng and thats uncompetitive.

I hope I made myself clear.

I agree that flinches can be annoying and can remove the skill. But that’s rng, focus miss and all of metagross moves for example can bring rng into a factor of winning or losing. A lot of the matches are decided by rng simply by a move miss or a crit hit. 

 

I can say that togekiss can be played around around with skill as well. But that doesn’t prove anything when you just state something like that.

And then comes back to what skill are we even talking about when crits and misses and flinches can decide a match?

 

but complaining about flinches to me is like complaining about crits and misses that sway an outcome. I do it to so idk what the answer is but I don’t think banning is the right thing to do with team preview now.

 

late game Gengar behind a sub is normally gg. Just like togekiss. 

 

I agree that dugtrio should be getting more attention rather than togekiss.

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2 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Typically crits and misses don't have a 60% chance of occurring 

Doesn’t matter on the chance of it having. The key word is chance. You could get unlucky with toge and not get any flinches and end up getting killed because you were relying on a flinch. 

 

 again I agree it’s an issue but is it ban worthy when you know your opponent is carrying one? And it’s not like dugtrio when it can instant revenge kill. There is still chance involved with togekiss.

 

 

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This topic.. Hmnnn

Weavile? 
Darmanitan?
Dragonite with roar/espeed?

 

Or a niche in..
Frosslass with Block - Taunt - Toxic/Destiny - Ice beam
(In case you're afraid of your opponent doubling back to Toge on your switch out)

idk.. I think your real problem is the fact that you get flinched a lot of times in a row while running a defensive team?
I mean, you picked to run a defensive team that doesn't have speed control, right?

As for being flinched many times in a row, maybe someone should test the viability of Air Slash + Grace server calcs?
idk about you but I don't land Hypnosis more than 3 times in a row.. and it is 60%

 

I feel like a lot of people here want a risk free game where they are guaranteed a win every time, can't take a loss? Salty much?

"He didn't outplay me he flinched me to death".. Happens? Do you lose every time your opponent has a Togekiss?

Or better let's demand Fairy type implementation :V

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18 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

This topic.. Hmnnn

Weavile? 
Darmanitan?
Dragonite with roar/espeed?

 

Or a niche in..
Frosslass with Block - Taunt - Toxic/Destiny - Ice beam
(In case you're afraid of your opponent doubling back to Toge on your switch out)

3

Out of those, only dragonite is a counter, and even then not all dragonites so I really don´t understand what these mons are about.

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57 minutes ago, pachima said:

Out of those, only dragonite is a counter, and even then not all dragonites so I really don´t understand what these mons are about.

First of all, I didn’t say counter, because it seems that word gives all of you some sort of grandeur hallucinations.

 

They either outright kill Toge or force her out? Assuming that you are running rocks, she always comes in low enough to die to them..

And please don’t pull random calcs that always benefit the Toge, always assuming worst case scenario.

 

The “but Toge will switch out!” Ok ..you hopefully damaged something else or U-turn-ed when applicable to keep momentum?

 

“But she will switch back in!”.. after you probably killed a mon, yes.. unless Toge hard switched on an attack, in which case there is a high chance of roost and a free switch in for you..

 

”but he could attack and not roost”.. grats to your opponent for making a play and it working out

 

In the case of Fross, as I said, more of a niche.. that can easily disturb the opponent’s play 

 

 

Edited by MHkaserz
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1 hour ago, MHkaserz said:

This topic.. Hmnnn

Weavile? 
Darmanitan?
Dragonite with roar/espeed?

 

Or a niche in..
Frosslass with Block - Taunt - Toxic/Destiny - Ice beam
(In case you're afraid of your opponent doubling back to Toge on your switch out)

idk.. I think your real problem is the fact that you get flinched a lot of times in a row while running a defensive team?
I mean, you picked to run a defensive team that doesn't have speed control, right?

As for being flinched many times in a row, maybe someone should test the viability of Air Slash + Grace server calcs?
idk about you but I don't land Hypnosis more than 3 times in a row.. and it is 60%

 

I feel like a lot of people here want a risk free game where they are guaranteed a win every time, can't take a loss? Salty much?

"He didn't outplay me he flinched me to death".. Happens? Do you lose every time your opponent has a Togekiss?

Or better let's demand Fairy type implementation :V

genuine question, do you even play the game? Dont come out with stuff like hurrdurr I'm 1600 on OU showdown, 1600 isjust a tiny bit above average, so yeah even there, dont use that excuse.

Weavile isn't a counter but a check, can't enter.
Same goes to darm,

dnite, some people even started making careful dnites, to try and help with the togekiss spam, truth be told, can counter, but that's a very niche set.

So mind explaining me your points here? Not even gonna comment on the below stuff.

Edited by razimove
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Just now, razimove said:

genuine question, do you even play the game? Dont come out with stuff like hurrdurr I'm 1600 on OU showdown, 1600 is average, so yeah even there, dont use that excuse.

Weavile isn't a counter but a check, can't enter.
Same goes to darm,

dnite, some people even started making careful dnites, to try and help with the togekiss spam, truth be told, can counter, but that's a very niche set.

So mind explaining me your points here? Not even gonna comment on the below stuff.

You seem to have a problem with me, lol

I do play the game, yes.

 

Yes I’m an above average player with only decent experience.

Again with the “counter” stuff.. Heeeh

 

Aha ..I’m reading your comment and I don’t see where is our disagreement 

People also spam fire moves on random mons to handle ferrothorn .. 

Hell I used to run psyshock on most of my spAtk-ers just to take a Blissey/Chansey by surprise 

 

If it is meta account for it while you’re building a team, if you don’t want to, accept the fact that you’ll struggle against it

 

My point is with all due respect.. You’re tunnel vision-ing the Togekiss matter.. That’s all

 

But ey just ban it if that will make so many people happy xD

I’m the guy that leads with Rapidash and plays on a Scyther win con in OU anyway, so nvm me.

 

I’m just voicing my opinion like everyone else, just because you think it is not valid doesn’t mean it isn’t. 

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13 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

Aha ..I’m reading your comment and I don’t see where is our disagreement 

His reply wasn't him trying to disagree with you pointing out some checks and a very very niche counter. It was to point out that you are giving 2 checks and 1 niche counter to justify the mon being healthy in the OU tier. If you bring SpDef Dragonite and your opponent decided to not bring a Togekiss it'll basically be useless. The checks you summed up both take 25% from rocks so they have limited switch ins, and seeing as Togekiss always pretty much runs roost it can pretty much outlive them no matter what if the Togekiss user isn't half stupid.

 

13 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

People also spam fire moves on random mons to handle ferrothorn .

This is completely irrelevant. People running fire coverage isn't just to hit Ferrothorn lol. It's also to hit mons along the line of; Excadrill, Scizor and Skarmory to name a few. That has nothing to do with your argument on how to stop Togekiss. Running fire coverage =/= running a specific Pokemon for 1 singular Pokemon.

 

13 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

Hell I used to run psyshock on most of my spAtk-ers just to take a Blissey/Chansey by surprise 

Calm down mister meta breaker !111!1!

 

13 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

If it is meta account for it while you’re building a team, if you don’t want to, accept the fact that you’ll struggle against it

That's the thing though, if you build to stop Togekiss you will just lose most matches if they don't bring it. And if you don't fully build around it and your opponent decides to bring it you lose. You cannot forget you can only bring 6 Pokemon and not 739163. With the current OU there is a lot you need to take into account, but seeing as Togekiss is very "luck" heavy even if you were to account for it you can still lose to it because flinches exist.

 

13 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

I’m just voicing my opinion like everyone else, just because you think it is not valid doesn’t mean it isn’t. 

You can have your opinion and that is fine. But just like you are voicing your opinions others are voicing theirs and you don't see them saying "blah blah it's not valid". But I digress.

Edited by TheChampionMike
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11 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

People also spam fire moves on random mons to handle ferrothorn .. 

it's not only for thorn, but for everyone's favorite, scizor, which as you can see in the usages, has been the most used monthly for a bunch of months in a row. Not only that, but OU packs a lot of steel types, wanna know some more? Excadrill, skarmory, magnezone, and you know what else it hits? breloom. So there you have plenty of reasons.

 

12 minutes ago, MHkaserz said:

Hell I used to run psyshock on most of my spAtk-ers just to take a Blissey/Chansey by surprise

Doesn't catch them off guard unless they lack experience, really.


Also everything else is 100% irrelevant to this discussion, even those 2 I quoted, so lets stick to the subject, but thanks for the good laugh.

 

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20 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

 

Someone I can talk with. I respect that.

 

I see, but that is all about positioning yourself in the game of when to do what. And I didn’t specify the nature of the Dnite, I was simply pointing out a mon with inner focus and roar. He assumed the set and built his answer around that.

 

Yes it was simply an example of something you’d go out of your way for, and it was a minimal example in ferrothorn, since out of the ones you mentioned he is the most annoying, I don’t have to mention all of them

 

Yas I break meta.. You didn’t see my Rash DD flamethrower Gyarados :P (You see how much I hate ferrothorn?) xD

 

You don’t have to fully build around it, just don’t make it too easy for it to come and stay in, by having a mon that checks it.

I explained a simple scenario up there in which, yes you can lose to togekiss, but at least you had a decent chance of winning

so instead of having what people call “dead weights”, just run a mon that can serve in both ways.

 

Yes idm him having that opinion ...though you can clearly see unnecessary hostility towards me, bringing up something I said in a different topic.. I didn’t say he is wrong in wanting to see Toge banned, I said that it isn’t AS game breaking as to have no choice but to ban it.

 

As for razi, you should see a psychologist, mate. ^^’

Edited by MHkaserz
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  • 2 weeks later...

Just here to leave some Togekiss hate.

Op explains it very well, and the discussion against being able to counter it on this page are good too.

 

Versatility/unpredictability, recovery, bulk and of course the ridiculous flinch make this mon too strong imo. Since I rarely can Ohko it, I just get caught in flinch chains, even if my mon is well suited to battle Togekiss.

It's is frustrating to lose to 6 flinches in a row.

It's also frustrating to lose to several crits in a row and random freezes, but Togekiss has a very high chance to ruin your day with such a high flinch chance.

 

Edited by Caliginosus
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  • 3 weeks later...

The Tier Council has decided not to ban Togekiss.

While annoying, it doesn't really fit the criteria for a ban. Properly prepared teams aren't easily swept by it and the increased use of alternative defensive things tailored to beat it allow defensive teams to survive it. Offensive teams have stuff like Jolteon, Disable Gengar and well, strong attackers that outspeed it, and while Scarf allows it to bypass this last weakness its awkward speed tier lets other scarfers beat it anyways, not to mention weather abusers.

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11 hours ago, suigin said:

The Tier Council has decided not to ban Togekiss.

While annoying, it doesn't really fit the criteria for a ban. Properly prepared teams aren't easily swept by it and the increased use of alternative defensive things tailored to beat it allow defensive teams to survive it. Offensive teams have stuff like Jolteon, Disable Gengar and well, strong attackers that outspeed it, and while Scarf allows it to bypass this last weakness its awkward speed tier lets other scarfers beat it anyways, not to mention weather abusers.

Personally i dont think its a good decision. Since we have talked a lot about this topic and since Togekiss doesnt have good checks, only 2: Dragonite wall haze and Jolteon Wall Wish. But talking seriously both arent such good in general situations.

I sold my Togekiss trusting on a good decision by the tier counciels but this looks like some of them like abusing the RNG so thats why Togekiss is not banned...

Edited by soyhector
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28 minutes ago, soyhector said:

Personally i dont think its a good decision. Since we have talked a lot about this topic and since Togekiss doesnt have good checks, only 2: Dragonite wall haze and Jolteon Wall Wish. But talking seriously both arent such good in general situations.

I sold my Togekiss trusting on a good decision by the tier counciels but this looks like some of them like abusing the RNG so thats why Togekiss is not banned... 

If you know you're unlucky you probably shouldn't have bet on us banning it

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12 hours ago, suigin said:

The Tier Council has decided not to ban Togekiss.

While annoying, it doesn't really fit the criteria for a ban. Properly prepared teams aren't easily swept by it and the increased use of alternative defensive things tailored to beat it allow defensive teams to survive it. Offensive teams have stuff like Jolteon, Disable Gengar and well, strong attackers that outspeed it, and while Scarf allows it to bypass this last weakness its awkward speed tier lets other scarfers beat it anyways, not to mention weather abusers.

nice suspect test

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2 hours ago, JuanLaf said:

It is impossible for me to win vs togekiss.

Please seriusly consider remove form OU the movement "Nasty Plot"

Not happening, other Pokemon can use Nasty Plot without it being a problem on them. And if we were to remove a move from kiss Aura Sphere would probably be the better choice. Alas we already made a decision and nothing's happening.

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