[OU Discussion] Togekiss

[DrButler]

23 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:

Hhmmm. The calcs I just did for aura are not even a guaranteed 3hko. Even if you choice specs Togekiss and hit excadrill on the switch you don’t ko it. 

 

Maybe im doing it wrong

 

those calcs would have to to be max max spdef, which is just fkn bad, so yeah - ur doing it wrong.

[Impulse5095]

49 minutes ago, DrButler said:

those calcs would have to to be max max spdef, which is just fkn bad, so yeah - ur doing it wrong.

I know it’s max spec def.........and no I’m not doing it wrong. Especially when people think aura does more damage to excadrill over flame thrower.

[suigin]

1 minute ago, Impulse5095 said:

I know it’s max spec def.........and no I’m not doing it wrong. Especially when people think aura does more damage to excadrill over flame thrower.

Aura is usually more common due to it already hitting mons like Scizor and Ferrothorn neutrally with its STABs while also gaining coverage for TTar

[Impulse5095]

1 minute ago, suigin said:

Aura is usually more common due to it already hitting mons like Scizor and Ferrothorn neutrally with its STABs while also gaining coverage for TTar

I know what aura is for............but just because something is common doesn’t mean it will be used. Especially when the whole reason for this topic is because of how “unpredictable” Togekiss is. 

 

Either way excadrill stops it enough to where you can bring in the counter if Togekiss is packing specs aura or even aura in general. Which then sub disable Gengar can have a field day on the switch in.

 

 

[Aard]

41 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:

I know what aura is for............but just because something is common doesn’t mean it will be used. Especially when the whole reason for this topic is because of how “unpredictable” Togekiss is. 

 

Either way excadrill stops it enough to where you can bring in the counter if Togekiss is packing specs aura or even aura in general. Which then sub disable Gengar can have a field day on the switch in.

 

 

You are doing it wrong because your troll set didn't work.

+2 0 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 252-298 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

You can't even 2hko togekiss with it. I half think you're really pro-togekiss ban and trying to portray the anti-ban people like they don't know what's going on.

 

If you want to pretend excadrill destroys togekiss before rocks the right way, run sand force choice band.  Then at least you have a calc.

252 Atk Choice Band Sand Force Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Sand: 344-406 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage

 

Honestly, not the worst set in the world since they will play off expecting its faster than everything then panic when it 2hko's their defensive wall.

 

If you want to debate normally, just talk about how if you get stealth rocks up like a civilized person then a lot of things will 1 shot togekiss, including excadrill.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 250-296 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

 

These calcs need rocks because rocks are easy to get up and attempts to spin/defog them can be majorly punished.  I think we should redo all the calcs with rocks and see where we are at.  This is like that time people pretended charizard was broken in nu all over again, no mention of stealth rock anywhere.  Rocks.

 

Losing 25% on every switch in is relevant. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Aard

[DrButler]

19 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:

I know what aura is for............but just because something is common doesn’t mean it will be used. Especially when the whole reason for this topic is because of how “unpredictable” Togekiss is. 

 

Either way excadrill stops it enough to where you can bring in the counter if Togekiss is packing specs aura or even aura in general. Which then sub disable Gengar can have a field day on the switch in.

 

 

didnt approach it from that angle yet, thanks.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by DrButler
when trolls respond to trolls

[Impulse5095]

wasnt trying to troll. Just assumed everyone knew that togekiss was weak to rocks and can be one shotted then. So I figured I’d go the creative route and show that there are different ways to stop togekiss. Yeah at +2 it can 2hko and then force excadrill out but u let gengar in to sub disable it. Either letting gengar set up or excadrill back in to set up. 

 

No matter what though, you have to play around togekiss. And like everyone else said, it only gets 4 moves. And each set has counters to them. 

 

 

[DrButler]

5 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:

wasnt trying to troll. Just assumed everyone knew that togekiss was weak to rocks and can be one shotted then. So I figured I’d go the creative route and show that there are different ways to stop togekiss. Yeah at +2 it can 2hko and then force excadrill out but u let gengar in to sub disable it. Either letting gengar set up or excadrill back in to set up. 

 

No matter what though, you have to play around togekiss. And like everyone else said, it only gets 4 moves. And each set has counters to them. 

 

 

creativity is cool, max max exca isnt.

[Takens]

19 hours ago, FNTCZ said:

For you to be flinched swept you need to have no pokemon over 145 speed (even less, considering most ppl dont even run max speed toge) so you'd basically be playing stall without an answer to togekiss, i see no reason why you shouldnt be swept in this scenario since it directly derivates from bad teambuilding.

 

I respectfully disagree. Makes stall braindead and takes away a good mon for balance and offensive builds

the move pool for togekiss is pretty extensive there's a thing called twave which makes pokes slower or para talking about speed i that case scenario doesn't make much sense.

[BigShotJoe]

Aard, your bias is showing.

As someone mentioned earlier, I think the best way to balance Togekiss would be to reduce its flinch probability. This could be accomplished by a complex ban on Togekiss with Serene Grace. I understand that the TC is hesitant to complex ban anything like this, but Togekiss has more roles and versatility than just flinching slow Pokemon to death. It has fantastic potential as a support, stall, or wallbreaking Pokemon without the 60% flinch rate. Unfortunately, because we still don't have hidden abilities, Togekiss' only option outside of Serene Grace is Hustle which, let's face it, is a pretty trash ability for pretty much any Pokemon. Because of that, the complex ban should wait until hidden abilities are released and, in the meantime, Togekiss should be fully banned from the OU tier.

[FNTCZ]

6 hours ago, Takens said:

here's a thing called twave

Which what, one in 10 togekiss run? lol I agree it's annoying but youd only face it about 0.2% of the time lmao (and to be fair, if toge runs this it's gonna lose on setup or coverage or recovery so..)

[FNTCZ]

3 hours ago, BigShotJoe said:

I think the best way to balance Togekiss would be to reduce its flinch probability.

And I don't. Am not gonna call you biased for that.

 

Togekiss shouldn't be banned.

[Aard]

6 hours ago, BigShotJoe said:

Aard, your bias is showing.

We've shown there's at least 20 common things in the tier outspeed the most dangerous set and 1hko after rocks.  Personally, I don't find it hard to get a chance to switch these things in.  Sure, you can add wrinkles like substitute, scarfs, and t-wave, but they all have their weaknesses that can still be exploited after assuming the wrong set for a couple of turns.  If you struggle to predict yourself out of a paper bag, then yeah, it might be a problem.  I don't know if that's bias, but for me togekiss is so far back on the list of possible broken mons that I'm just interested in what people are seeing here.  Is it people playing too much hard stall?  Is it too much scouting?  Is it an inability to get hazards down?  The 57% flinch just isn't that costly by itself when the speed is so low.  Something else is going on here that's causing people to have more trouble than they should be having with this mon.

 

Banning it isn't a good idea unless its actually broken.  In this case, its glue for the tier than most mons.  Even a lot of the pro-ban people are suggesting some sort of ridiculous complex ban at this point so I think they know removing it comes at a cost. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Aard

[BigShotJoe]

17 minutes ago, Aard said:

We've shown there's at least 20 common things in the tier outspeed the most dangerous set and 1hko after rocks.  Personally, I don't find it hard to get a chance to switch these things in.  Sure, you can add wrinkles like substitute, scarfs, and t-wave, but they all have their weaknesses that can still be exploited after assuming the wrong set for a couple of turns.  If you struggle to predict yourself out of a paper bag, then yeah, it might be a problem.  I don't know if that's bias, but for me togekiss is just such a non-factor that I'm just interested in what people are seeing here.  Is it people playing too much hard stall?  Is it too much scouting?  Is it an inability to get hazards down?  The 57% flinch just isn't that costly by itself when the speed is so low.  Something else is going on here that's causing people to have more trouble than they should be having with this mon.

 

Banning it isn't a good idea unless its actually broken.  In this case, its glue for the tier than most mons.  Even a lot of the pro-ban people are just suggesting a complex ban at this point so I think they know removing it comes at a cost. 

First off, it's definitely a 60% flinch chance. I have no idea where you got 57%. 
Second, I *highly* doubt that the problem is that everyone playing the game is too bad at it to learn to deal with Togekiss. That just isn't even remotely plausible.
Third, the comment about your bias was referring to your habit of showing very obvious dislike for any kind stall playstyle rather than trying to look at each Pokemon or situation objectively. Every competitive-based thread I've seen you comment in you've been pushing for changes that hinder a defensive playstyle. Whatever the reason for that being, a biased and unchanging point of view on any topic takes away from the value of your argument. 

As for the subject at hand, people don't have issues with Togekiss because it can set up and sweep or because it can laugh at defensive Pokemon and checkmate them into the ground or because it can use a scarf to outspeed and flinch to death nearly any Pokemon. People have issues with Togekiss because it can do any of these things with very little effort, player skill, or risk - all to great effect - and it often costs the person not using the Togekiss at least one Pokemon just to find out what set they are dealing with so they can come up with a strategy to deal with it.

I also suggested a complex ban but, until hidden abilities are implemented, a complex ban would just limit Togekiss to a pure support role and I think that would be too drastic a change for the community to accept. Outright banning it for now would be simpler and less painful.

P.S. In what way is it "the glue that holds the tier together"? That seems like a stretch.

Edited February 2, 2019 by BigShotJoe

[suigin]

5 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

First off, it's definitely a 60% flinch chance. I have no idea where you got 57%.

Air Slash's 5% miss rate.

[Aard]

52 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

First off, it's definitely a 60% flinch chance. I have no idea where you got 57%.

What is the accuracy of air slash, joe? 

 

52 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

Second, I *highly* doubt that the problem is that everyone playing the game is too bad at it to learn to deal with Togekiss. That just isn't even remotely plausible.

I disagree and not because people are stupid but because of how the game is structured. Not for this thread though.

52 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

Third, the comment about your bias was referring to your habit of showing very obvious dislike for any kind stall playstyle rather than trying to look at each Pokemon or situation objectively. Every competitive-based thread I've seen you comment in you've been pushing for changes that hinder a defensive playstyle. Whatever the reason for that being, a biased and unchanging point of view on any topic takes away from the value of your argument.

You're ignoring that there's a bias toward wanting prediction-based offensive threats banned.  I said in the first post I was fine with honchkrow moving up from NU because it had too few answers since everything that resisted bravebird was hit by faster high damage moves the next turn with sucker punch or superpower on steelix.  If it had no priority or tendency to crit then it would've been in the same boat as togekiss.

 

I am not fine with togekiss being banned because of situations like this:  togekiss wins against scarf magnezone if it outpredicts with aura sphere or roost.  If the togekiss player is ballsy enough to aura sphere on the switch or roost after magnezone comes in and volt switches, then they should be rewarded because the punishment for getting it wrong is high.  They don't even get rewarded that much considering magnezone isn't 1hkod at 0 and volt switch gives magnezone back the momentum.  Magnezone is a great way to manage togekiss and just because there's risk involved doesn't make it less effective.  The odds are in zone's favor.  That goes to the next point.

52 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

People have issues with Togekiss because it can do any of these things with very little effort, player skill, or risk - all to great effect - and it often costs the person not using the Togekiss at least one Pokemon just to find out what set they are dealing with so they can come up with a strategy to deal with it.

If it predicts wrong once it loses momentum and potentially opens up a sweep.  If you are losing one mon just figuring out the set then you aren't playing it correctly.  You should at least be able to figure out the set without losing things. 

 

52 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

I also suggested a complex ban but, until hidden abilities are implemented, a complex ban would just limit Togekiss to a pure support role and I think that would be too drastic a change for the community to accept. Outright banning it for now would be simpler and less painful.

You could still learn serene grace but just have the ability not do anything. I don't see how hustle or hidden ability come into the discussion.  If you didn't consider that option, I kind of think there's some logic missing here.  Not for a complex ban, but at least suggest it correctly.  And yeah, outright banning would be simpler, but definitely not less painful.  What would be less painful is just keeping it in the tier because its not broken.  

52 minutes ago, BigShotJoe said:

P.S. In what way is it "the glue that holds the tier together"? That seems like a stretch.

It deals with the milotic, cofag, blissey/chansey stall core.  After everything else that deals with it was either not implemented or nerfed, we are left with togekiss, a weird hydreigon with taunt and roost, and a shaky pain split gengar.   

Edited February 2, 2019 by Aard

[Kamowanthere]

Quote

There are some things, like flinching, which you would normally consider to be hax but aren't always so. For example, Jirachi has a 60% chance to flinch a slower opponent with Iron Head, so in this case, flinching is not hax because it happens over half the time.

 

This is from that page of Smogon.

It is not hax according to this forum page of Smogon too.

Togekiss counters:

Quote

 

1- Scarf Darmanitan

252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 309-364 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Darmanitan can switch safely (if at full hp) to Togekiss and has 93.8% to OHKO it.

2- Volt Switch Scarf Magnezone

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 276-326 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 31-37 (11 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magnezone: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Magnezone can swift safely to Togekiss Air Slash and use Volt Switch or Thunderbolt, Thunderbolt has 31.3% chance to OHKO it. But if it uses Volt Switch it won't take risk and won't be damaged.

3- Blissey

Bold Defensive Blissey -> 

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 144-170 (20.1 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Togekiss: 50-50 (31 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Calm Special Defensive Blissey ->

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 58-70 (16 - 19.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Togekiss: 50-50 (31 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

It is very low chance to flinch 6 times in a row, Togekiss can be walled by Blissey.

------

IF TOGEKISS USES NASTY PLOT AND MAXIMIZE ITS SPATK  ->

+6 252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 226-268 (62.4 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 300-354 (82.8 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

4- Chansey

There is no calculation needed lol, Chansey is bulkier than Blissey and will hit same with Seismic Toss & Toxic.

 

5- Special Defensive Porygon2

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 50-60 (26 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Porygon2 Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 56-68 (34.7 - 42.2%) -- 76.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And keep in mind, Trace Serene Grace will have 60% chance to Paralyze Togekiss, will give it really hard time

6- Tyranitar

Choice Band Tyranitar

Yes, this one might be ridiculous (Togekiss learns Aura Sphere wtf?!?) but yes, Tyranitar can survive and OHKO Togekiss. You have to predict Air Slash and you can switch to Air Slash safely, Air Slash + Aura Sphere at +0 will have 0% (will deal max 87%) chance to kill Tyranitar unless there are 2(37.5% chance to ohko with Stealth Rocks) or 3 Layers of Spikes + Stealth Rock together.(252 HP 252 Atk Tyranitar)

 

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 21-24 (10.1 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 132-156 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 302-356 (187.5 - 221.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO <- Choice Band

 

Choice Scarf Tyranitar

It is easier to finish Togekiss with Choice Scarf because you will be faster than Togekiss.

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 186-218 (115.5 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Whatever Togekiss uses, including Aura Sphere, Tyranitar will survive all and OHKO Togekiss

(Won't survive Aura Sphere if there are 2 Layers of Spikes with Stealth Rocks together)

 

7- Lanturn

6 SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 80-96 (49.6 - 59.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 42-50 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 26-31 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

No need to talk about that, It can only set up twice (including switch in turn)

+4 252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 124-147 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and still doesn't kill

8- SpDef Gigalith

0 Atk Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 152-182 (94.4 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 58-70 (30.2 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If Togekiss uses Nasty Plot while switch in:

+2 252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 116-138 (60.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

My Suggestion is making Air Slash 15% or 10% chance to flinch, so it will be 30% or 20% chance to flinch for Togekiss. Togekiss shouldn't be banned.

Quote

my opinion, respecting other opinions

 

[Zymogen]

1 minute ago, Kamowanthere said:

Togekiss counters:

Blissey, Lanturn and Chansey are all setup bait for Togekiss so I wouldn't class them as counters at all, especially with regards to the the defensive Slash/NP/Heal Bell/Roost set

[jcolas]

2 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Blissey, Lanturn and Chansey are all setup bait for Togekiss so I wouldn't class them as counters at all, especially with regards to the the defensive Slash/NP/Heal Bell/Roost set

Lanturn? are you sure about that?

7- Lanturn

6 SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 80-96 (49.6 - 59.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 42-50 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 26-31 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

For blisey and chancey, it just depends on the togekiss's set and then you rely on luck for everything that is not like Air slash, sub/heal bell, roost, nasty plot

[RysPicz]

4 minutes ago, Kamowanthere said:

Togekiss counters:

The pokemons you have mentioned are "Checks". "Counter" (by definition) is a pokemon that can come into another mon 100% of the time in normal battling conditions, regardless of it's set, spread and shiny rate and scare it out right away. A good example of a "counter" would be probably Celebi countering Breloom.

 

Togekiss has no counters in our current metagame; they depend on Toge's set and set only. There isn't a single mon that can handle Togekiss 100% of the time.

Darmanitan can revenge kill, which means- Toge already killed something. Same goes for Tyranitar most likely- unless you like gambling and switching Tyranitar into Toge without making sure it doesn't have Aura Sphere.

Chansey, Blissey and Pory2 are setup baits for monoattacker.

Lanturn with the spread you gave is a setup bait again- mainly because Togekiss outspeeds it, meaning it can roost to take a mere 25% from TBolt and this is with 0 HP investment (which is rarely seen unless the toge is scarf).

 

 

For now there are 0 OU tournaments during which I can play/ observe anything in regards of Togekiss so I'll restrain from further discussing. Just felt like clearing some things up

[Kamowanthere]

6 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Blissey, Lanturn and Chansey are all setup bait for Togekiss so I wouldn't class them as counters at all, especially with regards to the the defensive Slash/NP/Heal Bell/Roost set

as Jcolas said, Togekiss can't set up against Lanturn

Just now, jcolas said:

Lanturn? are you sure about that?

7- Lanturn

6 SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 80-96 (49.6 - 59.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 42-50 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 26-31 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

For blisey and chancey, it just depends on the togekiss's set and then you rely on luck for everything that is not like Air slash, sub/heal bell, roost, nasty plot

Blissey and Chansey can use Toxic and finish it before it sets up enough to kill Blissey & Chansey

[Zymogen]

1 minute ago, jcolas said:

Lanturn? are you sure about that?

7- Lanturn

 

yes, togekiss has access to a little something called roost

[Zymogen]

5 minutes ago, Kamowanthere said:

Blissey and Chansey can use Toxic and finish it before it sets up enough to kill Blissey & Chansey

was it you who said they'd never used a togekiss before? forgive me if i'm mistaken, genuine question

 

blissey and chansey are prime setup targets for defensive togekiss. no matter what side of the argument you are on, that is a fact

Edited February 2, 2019 by Zymogen

[Kamowanthere]

5 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Togekiss has no counters in our current metagame; they depend on Toge's set and set only. There isn't a single mon that can handle Togekiss 100% of the time.

Darmanitan can revenge kill, which means- Toge already killed something. Same goes for Tyranitar most likely- unless you like gambling and switching Tyranitar into Toge without making sure it doesn't have Aura Sphere.

Chansey, Blissey and Pory2 are setup baits for monoattacker.

Lanturn with the spread you gave is a setup bait again- mainly because Togekiss outspeeds it, meaning it can roost to take a mere 25% from TBolt and this is with 0 HP investment (which is rarely seen unless the toge is scarf).

 

 

For now there are 0 OU tournaments during which I can play/ observe anything in regards of Togekiss so I'll restrain from further discussing. Just felt like clearing some things up

If you read about Choice Band Tyranitar again, It can survive to Aura Sphere and finish it off.

Chansey Blissey has access to Toxic and Seismic Toss

Darmanitan is safe switch to Air Slash if it is at full HP, no need to use it as revenge killer

[jcolas]

4 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

yes, togekiss has access to a little something called roost

yes, Tbolt have a little something  called 10% of paralysis. since you can't really be killed by togekiss, you have more than enough try to make it viable, fun like anti togekiss only consider hax when they want.