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[OU Discussion] Togekiss

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After rising to OU by usage, Togekiss has grown to be one of the most meta defining pokemon of the tier. Of all the Serene Grace users accessible right now, Togekiss is the only one that has managed to convert increased secondary effect odds into such devastating win conditions.
 

Thanks to its high and well-balanced base stats, decent typing and wide move pool, Togekiss is quite versatile and represents a grand threat no matter the playstyle it is facing. With several viable EV spreads, item choices and access to moves such as Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Roost, Softboiled, Flamethrower, Tri Attack, Trick and Thunder Wave, Togekiss doesn’t really have any true counter in OU. For instance, Magnezone, Tyranitar and Jolteon have proven to be great against the stall breaker sets (Air Slash, Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Roost/Softboiled), but are at the same time not adapted to deal with the Substitute sets and quite average against the Scarf sets. It seems the only way to counter Togekiss safely is by running obscure gimmicks like Emolga/Aerodactyl or flinch-free hazers like Crobat/Dragonite.

 

It’s also important to note how bulky Togekiss is; very few OU pokemon – even Ice/Electric/Rock pokemon with a super-effective stab – are capable to get rid of Togekiss in a OHKO. Yet, Togekiss has access to perfect coverage to punish severely any mispredict from Ice/Electric/Rock pokemon. For instance, Scarf Thunderbolt Magnezone doesn’t OHKO a defensive Togekiss that can simply scout the opponent's move by Roosting up.

 

Therefore, teambuilding, preparing and playing against Togekiss is no easy task and often forces you to compromise by exposing your team to severe weaknesses. Overall, the TC suspects that Togekiss might be unhealthy in OU and would like to have your input on the matter.

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5 minutes ago, sweendogforums said:

I can't tell if you're serious if you can't hold up against a togekiss you're bad, never had one problem with it.

the lord sweendog has spoken, you may now close this thread

Edited by Zymogen

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Reminder to actually stay on topic and present evidence to back up whatever you are saying.  Baseless claims do nothing for the discussion.

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6 minutes ago, kiwi said:

Use SubDisable Gengar 

scarf togekiss bypasses this set rather easily

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Just now, kiwi said:

scarf toge is the worse toge man

not arguing otherwise, but yeah also a pain in the ass to deal, but that's just togekiss overall

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I'll repost what I posted last July on the OU discussion request thread to get things started

 

Spoiler

Tyranitar is the best check to NP Togekiss outside of Magnezone. However if the Tyranitar is caught on a Twave then it only has a 30% chance of actually hitting when accounting for the 60% flinch chance with Serene Grace boosted Air Slash; that is almost the same probability as being fully paralysed. When factoring in Stone Edge's accuracy,  the probability is even lower. (**The point about Twave was probably my main point when I first posted this -- upon retrospection I recognise Twave isn't very common and is somewhat of a self-limiting set for Togekiss, but I figured I'd leave some quick maffs in there anyway) 

 

For walls, it is incredibly difficult to achieve anything significant against a Togekiss due to its decent speed tier and therefore fast Air Slashes, Nasty Plots and Roosts without any investment; not to mention its ability to cure any status condition inflicted upon it with Heal Bell. For these reasons there is not a single wall, outside of perhaps Sassy Tyranitar, that is effective in dealing with Togekiss (and that is provided it is not carrying Aura Sphere). Additionally, with Togekiss' natural bulk and access to a reliable recovery move, it makes for an incredibly difficult Pokemon to keep at a low enough HP for revenge killing without a strong pursuit trapper or Tyranitar/Magnezone to force switches on Rocks. 

 

With regards to offensive checks and revenge killers:

 

For Bold Togekiss, effective revenge killers include: 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 236-282 (122.9 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 192-228 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 216-254 (112.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 190-224 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Less effective revenge killers:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 172-203 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 156-187 (81.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (lol)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 162-192 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (also lol)

252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 160-190 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 157-186 (82.1 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(**Calm Togekiss is kinda redundant but, again, I'll leave it here anyway):

 

For Calm Togekiss, effective revenge killers include:

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 234-276 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 300-354 (156.2 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 218-257 (113.5 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (91.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Less effective revenge killers:

252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 144-170 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 150-178 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Other interesting calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 110-132 (57.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Togekiss: 97-115 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 108-128 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Edited by Zymogen

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32 minutes ago, Bubaili said:

It seems like you changed your mind! 

I opened this thread on behalf of the TC because it seems Togekiss might be unhealthy. I'm personally not convinced yet, but I can't deny that it's a threat that must be discussed.

Edited by gbwead

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I cant belive i'm saying this but... no.

 

PLEASE keep togekiss in the tier. for one it has 4mmss but mainly it single handely keeps stall at bay (This doesnt mean it makes stall useless, rather controls it and forces it to at least run either ttar mag or uhm aero). its scarf set also checks HO which is imo one of the strongest playstyles right now and believe or not, scarfs toge matchup vs balance is a skill based one since theyll most likely carry checks, strong priority, rocks, and even pursuit.

 

Banning this pokemon would be like banning lando-t in usum, sure there might be arguments that it is maybe a little too strong but it also acts as a glue that holds the entire tier together. I can truly not thing of any other pokemon that, if banned, would unleash such havok on the metagame. (Note that is the complete opposite of unhealthy)

Edited by FNTCZ

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I'm not agree with FNTCZ but I do not see Togekiss banworthy. 

 

It is weak x2 to rocks, normal speedtie (not fast not slow) and all of it's sets have good checks in the current meta. With a Sub+NP set it has good matchup against offensive and balanced builds but it's weak to common faster threats without sub up. Scouting for it's set is not that difficult because the lack of raw power, so you can hit it to break sub most of times without being in a very bad situation if its not that set. Checks to this set: Scarf TTar, Scarf Magne with prior damage, CB Darmanitan (not a switch in), Scarf Darma with prior damage, SubDisable Gengar wins 1v1 if it doesn't carry recovery move and even CB Weavile rkills it..

 

252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 186-218 (97.3 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery 
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 138-164 (72.2 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 147-174 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 220-259 (115.1 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Those three can kill it easily if toge is not under the sub. If it makes to put a sub its when the real pain starts because of its good coverage with Aura Sphere and ability to do great damage or even flinch in return. But even in that case it have some checks to it. Chople TTar switching in the turn he goes for sub/np, Gengar as I said above, Dnite can deal great damage or getting rid of the sub 100% bc of Inner Focus.
 
With NP+Heal Bell/TW it can destroy fat teams alone without any help but still being slower and potentially revengekilled if it kills something. Without Aura Sphere this toge is not scary if you have a reliable flying resist that can threaten it.
If it is the scarf set its easily stopped if you dont run offense and even in those matchups you can pivot around scouting for what it decides to go for. Also I do not see toge beating special walls without NP so this set has a good list of checks and counters.
 
Sorry for my english that may make this not clear as I wanted to but it is what it is.
My conclusion from this is the most painful set is the sub one and with a good flying resist and some predictions it is beatable. Pls do not use Aerodactyl for it is just carrying a dead weight.
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

Edited by kiwi

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Togekiss is not banworthy, but i have to admit meta could get more interesting without it allowing more people to come up with more stall teams not based on always getting to use a ttar or aerodactyl to stop it. Like someone said above pretty much depends on what's the set of togekiss to get to know how to stop it, but wasn't that the reason gengar was banned in 3rd gen. versatibility. serene graces runs over stall teams with no ttar or aerodactyl, togekiss scarf runs over hyper offensive at least is what i saw lately from watching and studying from everyone's pvp. i don't think i need to show calcs for this since most of us have faced a togekiss by now and we know what we are dealing with.

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I feel like its had to argue that its unhealthy when its usage is fairly low, and even more telling than that is the usage of niche counters like Crobat, Lanturn or Aero, which even then could still have that usage without Togekiss, are low as well. Jolteon is kind of high but its not really niche since it has a role outside of Togekiss with rain and what not. 

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"Healthy" isn't imo the right way to approach Togekiss.

 

"Uncompetitive" fits Togekiss' description much better:

 

"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."

 

Not being able to make a move at all because of Air Slash's constant flinching, that throws away the game into hands of RNG and RNG only, while not proving anyone's skill, isn't something that I'd like to see in OU. I could teach a monkey to sit in front of a computer and click this one specific box over and over to win the game with Air Slash flinches.

 

That's the only thing from me, at least for now. I'd be happy to read some discussion, backed up by reasonable arguments, calcs and maybe replays (though one specific fight from last PSL where zhiko made a comeback with togekiss flinching everything for like what, 14 turns? is something that doesn't look favourable for it to stay. Anyone got a replay from that?).

 

E:

 

Jirachi when?

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.

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I pretty much agree with Forfiter. While Togekiss has countless flaws (Rocks, average speed, electric types in general, 4mss, etc. etc. ) it isn´t at all farfetched that, for one, teambuilding is severely pressured by this little bird in the tier (I myself have used jolt + magne solely for this thing) but also to say that once those pseudosemicounters are gone, a game with togekiss is left alone in the hands of SRIF . My bad, in the hands of RNG, and that is something I don´t like to see.

 

I have seen a lot of games where opponent literally spams air slashes hoping to rng the hell out of the opponent and that is a mentality we should try to avoid, and togekiss makes it too easy. 

 

On the other hand, it might be the reason why stall isnt so commonly used, but I can´t guarantee this one, so I believe a test would confirm this and some other stuff around Togekiss.

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About Lanturn and Gengar disable, I just want to point out that they are super annoying for Togekiss, but they absolutely can't counter it by themselves unless they run very weird sets.

 

Lanturn doesn't deal any dmg. Modest 252 spatk Lanturn with speed investment, does not 2hko calm Togekiss. If Togekiss is played with any speed investment, it will outspeed Lanturn and the match up becomes even worse since it will then be able to Roost before Lanturn can hit it making the Electric stab rather underwhelming. Lanturn can switch in relatively safely and volt switch after Togekiss makes a move (and doesn't flinch) to something that will then be able to get rid of Togekiss.

 

As for Gengar, if it runs Sub Disable, I assume it will also run Shadow Ball. This means that there is only one move left to hit Togekiss. Most of the time, that move will be Focus Blast and sadly Focus Blast only has 8 pp and shitty accuracy while Togekiss has 16 Roost/Softboiled. Disabling Air Slash is great though because you can then switch in a lot of threats with much ease.

 

Overall, these mons are great in putting together a strategy to beat Togekiss, but I believe it's a mistake to think they can counter it by themselves.

Edited by gbwead

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I don't think "it keeps stall at bay" is a legitimate argument

 

Stall, whilst seen as boring to most people (including me), is a recognised competitive playstyle. Boosting up and flinching the entire tier to death is not a competitive playstyle.

 

Moreover, there are several other established wallbreakers in OU (Excadrill, Hydreigon, Lucario, Acro Gliscor, Darmanitan, Critdra, Kabutops, Porygon-Z to name but a few) that would "keep stall at bay" if that is the only reason for keeping Togekiss in the tier. To say that Togekiss "holds the tier together" is a stretch too far in my eyes because, to say that, is to imply that there are broken Pokemon in the tier that Togekiss single-handedly keeps in check which couldn't be farther from the truth. 

Edited by Zymogen

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I have had a good think about this one and I think I am leaning towards banning it.

 

The lack of certain Pokémon and legendaries doesn't favor this case right now. Without the likes of Zapdos and Rotom-W around, which would stop it in its tracks, this Pokémon really does end up being a problem to a lot of teams. I think there are definitely checks to Togekiss, because if there weren't any it's usage would be through the roof and it does have 4mss. However Togekiss doesn't just bring damage, it also has the ability to bring a little bit of support to a team with Heal Bell if it opts to run it. 

 

As people have said above the sheer lack of skill this mon takes to just win games is simply so stupid. The ability for this Pokémon to just allow an opponent to not make a move for easily 10+ turns in a row is just a no for me. It takes away all the fun and skill from the battle. There is an argument to be made that you should just run Pokémon that are faster than it if you don't want to get flinched. Or bring Pokémon that can check it. But you don't just fight against Togekiss and by the time Togekiss get's revealed there usually has been a lot of chip damage done and/or Pokémon already fainted.

 

While this Pokémon can end up sweeping teams by itself, I think an even more annoying thing it can do is just tear apart any team with "skill" for any sweeper to end it right after. 

 

Right now even with Togekiss in it I think OU is in a very very good place. I'm a little sceptical about what will happen to the tier if it does end up getting the boot. It doesn't single handedly define the entire metagame but it is a pretty dominant Pokémon in the tier right now so I am uncertain. But I doubt it will turn to shit.

 

And to be completely honest if TC is worried or unsure why not just testban it for a month or two?

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While I personally don't see Togekiss as OP, the way he's played is so extremely RNG based, monotone and just plain frustrating to deal with. There is not a lot of decision making and in most cases you just press air slash, pray and repeat, so I think 'unhealthy' describes it pretty well.

 

I have seen quite a few run aura sphere, which makes magnezone not really a viable option, however a niche careful special wall dragonite with haze and roost deals with it pretty well - but then again if you run it and the opponent doesn't have a togekiss it's pretty useless.

 

I don't think removing it from the OU tier would change the meta at all, just a lot less people would get headaches from RNG.

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Another offensive threat that's easy to beat with prediction but hard to beat with scouting up for ban discussion?  Who would've thought.

 

The real issue is that there is a divide in how people to play the game.  Some people build up a pool of teams that are really good against one strategy but weak to others and prefer to do most of the damage by relentlessly scouting opponents.  Others want to build a team that covers every strategy reasonably and then win through making better reads than the opponent.

 

Togekiss puts a wrench in the first strategy because it has to be outplayed in the battle instead of before the battle.  Predicting with a togekiss is harder than it looks, especially the people claiming the scarf set is the best set.  Its not.  The nasty plot set can be much more forcing especially with Togekiss's biggest asset being able to break stall.  By the way, leaving a stall poke in on togekiss and getting flinched is not hax, it would be hax after 3 turns if no flinch occurs. 

 

I'm not just against banning all offensive things either.  Honchkrow was a good example of when an offensive flying threat gets too powerful for a tier.  Its moves did inconsistent damage because of crits so nothing could reliably live 2 of its attacks, it could checkmate half the tier with pursuit, and it had a priority move so even good switches on one turn wouldn't actually be good the next turn unless resistant to dark.  Togekiss has none of those issues.  If you beat it on a switch it will have to switch next turn or take significant damage.  Many things can switch in on it too, just any randomly assembled team will probably have at least 2 or 3 ways to beat it.   

 

The best thing togekiss has is a variety of movesets that accomplish different things which means people trying to obsessively scout it will get destroyed if the person they are scouting has 2 or 3 different togekisses they switch between.  The thing is with any normally constructed team those sets can be revealed ingame and dealt with without much issue.  Its not about its speed and power, its not about its bulk, its not even about its flinchax.  Its about people not being able to effectively scout it.  My advice is to play for a while without trying to creep on your opponent and it will become much easier to deal with. 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

Lmfao

Out of all the opinions that people can reasonably differ on, you pick the one thing that is hard fact.

 

(4/10)^2= .16% no flinch.  Its actually hax every 2 turns in a row a flinch doesn't occur.  Three was to be generous since a 6.4% chance of  no flinch occurring means the togekiss got haxxed hard.  Togekiss very fairly punishes slower stally mons and also very fairly will never flinch something faster.

Edited by Aard

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