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Zymogen

Remove the feature that immediately shows all revealed pokemon upon spectating

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Great for neutral spectators, terrible for scouting. It brings nothing positive and in my eyes is only a hindrance to competitive battling, especially if you finish after your next opponent in a tournament. Please remove it. 

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If scouting is the principal concern to removing it, I still don't feel like removing it will stop it from happening. It's not hard to simply ask a friend/teammate to find out for you or the player could simply use another character/account if they are truly that desperate.

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31 minutes ago, Linfanz said:

If scouting is the principal concern to removing it, I still don't feel like removing it will stop it from happening. It's not hard to simply ask a friend/teammate to find out for you or the player could simply use another character/account if they are truly that desperate.

but it makes it harder, and thats the idea. and it actually is kinda hard finding someone that is willing to watch a whole match to see all pokes, instead of watching a match they enjoy

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2 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

but it makes it harder, and thats the idea. and it actually is kinda hard finding someone that is willing to watch a whole match to see all pokes, instead of watching a match they enjoy

But under the current system a viewer checking in anytime towards the end of a match can see all the Pokemon used in the battle up to date by both sides. This doesn't necessarily allow you to see each build of the Pokemon/movesets unless you watched the entire match but it definitely does allow you to see the Pokemon used just by checking in the battle for a few seconds towards the end. Sure it does make it slightly harder, but I doubt it's going to stop/reduce it from happening to an extent justifiable in changing current mechanics. Plus the majority of good players change their teams between rounds so anything they 'scout' should probably be taken with some hesitation anyway. Just my opinion.

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51 minutes ago, Linfanz said:

If scouting is the principal concern to removing it, I still don't feel like removing it will stop it from happening. It's not hard to simply ask a friend/teammate to find out for you or the player could simply use another character/account if they are truly that desperate.

Yes, but currently the player in question doesn't have to rely on other people. They have to watch the battle for 5 seconds, take a screenshot and then can spend the rest of the battle and the 10 minute interval building around what they have seen, or scouting previous rounds.

 

Take your logic and apply it to laws against drugs, does it still hold up? It is no secret that scouting is impossible to stop completely, but how can you not advocate for something that would aid in making it more difficult? In this instance it wouldn't even be drastic change or a step in the right direction - it would merely be reclaiming the step backwards that the game took when this update was implemented. 

 

Do you really think the benefits of the ease of access for spectators outweighs the drawbacks that it brings for competitive players? 

Edited by Zymogen

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6 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

but how can you not advocate for something that would aid in making it more difficult?

I can. I am by no mean 'for' scouting in anyways. My principal argument is just that I'm not sure of the extent to which this change would 'decrease' scouting. I guess if you truly wanted to make scouting more difficult. I guess you could suggest disabling spectating of duels until the tournament have finished. Sure this also is not foolproof and as you mentioned it is impossible to stop completely. Of course this then in my opinion is a bad move for those neutrals who just enjoy watching a good duel but if you truly believe that 'the benefits of the ease of access for spectators [does not] outweighs the drawbacks that it brings for competitive players. Then maybe its a more effective way in attempting to eliminate scouting.

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1 hour ago, Zymogen said:

Great for neutral spectators, terrible for scouting. It brings nothing positive and in my eyes is only a hindrance to competitive battling, especially if you finish after your next opponent in a tournament. Please remove it. 

If you are a competitive player, you must have a variety of equipment. 
Do not depend on not being seen.

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2 minutes ago, dIOXprooo said:

If you are a competitive player, you must have a variety of equipment. 
Do not depend on not being seen.

This is just wrong at so many levels. Even if there is no scouting involved, the sole fact scouting in this game is the easiest thing ever creates an unhealthy cteaming mentality restriction upon players upon their teambuilding. 

On another note, please implement some sort of blind/shuffle bracket.

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26 minutes ago, Linfanz said:

My principal argument is just that I'm not sure of the extent to which this change would 'decrease' scouting.

Likewise, what benefits does it bring? It is a system that worked perfectly beforehand. The current one is unnecessary. 

 

26 minutes ago, Linfanz said:

I guess you could suggest disabling spectating of duels until the tournament have finished.

I'm not asking for something as drastic as this, because I recognise the overall enjoyment of a tournament is contributed to significantly by the ability to spectate battles as a neutral, and this would detract from it greatly as you say. However, my suggestion does not; there is no credible reason for you to be able to immediately acquire the structure of a player's team by simply clicking on the spectate button. It does not contribute at all to the neutral spectating experience. 

 

The argument of "we shouldn't do it because I don't know how much of an effect it will have" is redundant honestly. There is a significant contrast between the ease at which people could previously scout their opponents, and the ease at which people can now scout their opponents - simply due to the fact that, before the update, you required a third party to spectate the entire battle while you battled in order to not eat into your preparation time during the interval. Now, there is no need for an extra person to be involved as the person can have access to their potential opponent's entire teams in an instant. 

 

16 minutes ago, dIOXprooo said:

If you are a competitive player, you must have a variety of equipment. 
Do not depend on not being seen.

Ah, yes. The old "you have multiple comps so scouting shouldn't be a problem" interjection. This is crap and you know it. If scouting was that ineffective because "good players should change their teams" then why is there such a poignant scouting culture within community tournaments such as PSL? Are you telling me you've never scouted your opponent in a tournament and allowed it to influence your mentality when building your team?

 

10 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Lowering breeding costs would help so much against scouting.

Interesting point, I'd not thought about it that way

Edited by Zymogen

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Lowering breeding costs would help so much against scouting.

Not really. Maybe for newer players, but there's a difference between using 6 mons and using a team.

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15 minutes ago, suigin said:

 but there's a difference between using 6 mons and using a team.

damn. Wise words.

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Scouting is ultimately a handicap for donators to give them a leg up on other players since excess money means more resources to build a greater variety of  comp teams.  It is essential to keeping high priority customers feeling as if they are also the most skilled of players so they stick with the game longer.  Scouting is supposed to be prevalent and  painless and it would probably hurt the economy if it wasn't.  Don't think this can be changed without drastically changing what the game is intended to be.

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1 hour ago, suigin said:

Not really. Maybe for newer players, but there's a difference between using 6 mons and using a team.

I'm an old player and changing teams remains very difficult. Scouting would not be a big issue if the access to comps was easier.

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I would able to show my opponents team before battle instead. That would be more fun and spectating wouldnt be important as it is right now. But meh.. its just me.

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The feature is fine, you even said it yourself, it's great for neutral spectators and most of them will not be for scouting. So punishing the viewer experience for the majority because a couple of smartasses decided to have a sneak peek and counter-team the next round isn't good policy.

Linfanz already mentioned how using an alt or asking a friend could bypass what you're suggesting. 

 

Shuffling at end of each round would solve the problem to an extent - you could still scout a semi-final if you already secured your spot in the final, and this already sucks because the final is the most important game. The biggest disadvantage of this, imo, is making the tournament last way longer. Having to wait, every round, for every match up to end before starting the next round. Let's be real here, ain't nobody got time for that, and despite most thinking this is a good suggestion on paper, I see it terrible in practise. EDIT: Disregard this because you could probably code so it would be a random shuffle made at the beginning of the tour and not at the end of each round.

 

Barring disabling spectating while the tournament's live, the only solution I see to this is keep switching teams, so I'm with gbwead on this one. Maybe if switching teams between rounds happen more often, snipers will stop snipping because of their failures, creating a metagame about to c-team or not c-team.

Edited by FlaFlaPT

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It bemuses me as to why all of these tenuous counter arguments are arising now, yet there was not a single complaint during the several years that the old system was in practice. The viewing experience is of less importance than the competitive integrity of the tournament. 

 

E: however I do agree that a shuffled/blind bracket would solve all of this. But in the grand scheme of things, which of the two is more likely?

Edited by Zymogen

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When the team preview will be added, there will be no more complainments about scooting. And yes Gbwead is right, if the acces to comp was easier, maybe people will play more then 1 tier "OU".

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No, dont. for one adapting to your opponents teams is a skill, but the main reason is that it makes watching a tournament so much better from a spectators point of view, plus, if its in some advanced rounds of a tournament either your opponents are good enough that scouting wont work because they will bring different teams or you can have your friends help you out. if you really want to scout you will find a way unless brackets are randomized so dont blame good features for making it just a little bit more easy when they bring benefits to other aspects of the game aswell

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On 1/21/2019 at 5:21 AM, FNTCZ said:

No, dont. for one adapting to your opponents teams is a skill, but the main reason is that it makes watching a tournament so much better from a spectators point of view, plus, if its in some advanced rounds of a tournament either your opponents are good enough that scouting wont work because they will bring different teams or you can have your friends help you out. if you really want to scout you will find a way unless brackets are randomized so dont blame good features for making it just a little bit more easy when they bring benefits to other aspects of the game aswell

if you finish before your opponent does you have a huge advantage, because you can just start watching his/her game, type down mons and start cteaming, while your opponent, if he doesnt ask his friends to scout, will be glad if he can figure out 1-3 mons you used, so he has a few minutes left to build an actual teamand take a deep breath or a piss. he has to use some of his precious 10 minutes to figure out what you did starting the replay, while you already have all the information. having more time, people to scout for you and more information, all based on stuff you hardly influence isnt a skill.

 

apart from people who disco´d seeing all mons when they come back i cant see anything positive that bs feature added.

 

 

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12 hours ago, DrButler said:

apart from people who disco´d seeing all mons when they come back i cant see anything positive that bs feature added.

I, as a spectator, when watching games live at a tournament dont like to commint 100% to a single game, instead, i usually watch 2+ at any given time. This means I close and open duels often (same idea applis to matchmaking too) so, not losing the revealed mons is huge for this kind of practice so you dont lose information when spectating more than one game (also huge for team tournaments where you wanna be watching different tiers/players)

 

12 hours ago, DrButler said:

if you finish before your opponent does you have a huge advantage, because you can just start watching his/her game, type down mons and start cteaming, while your opponent, if he doesnt ask his friends to scout, will be glad if he can figure out 1-3 mons you used, so he has a few minutes left to build an actual teamand take a deep breath or a piss. he has to use some of his precious 10 minutes to figure out what you did starting the replay, while you already have all the information. having more time, people to scout for you and more information, all based on stuff you hardly influence isnt a skill.

Not necesarely, you can just play your game on your pc/laptop while spectating your opponent on your phone, no need for a team or friends

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