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A very salty boi


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Just now, SelflovingWhale said:

Can we take a moment to look at WHY there isn't a 100 accuracy rock type physical move, and the next best alternative to stone edge is rock slide still without 100 accuracy with a 25% decrease in power.

Nothing to see here just a SALTY boi that's confused why he's being punished for stone edge predicts

Please, blame Game Freak.

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since this isn't vanilla game wouldn't it be better to just say fuck gamefreak's pooped "balance" on that and just modify the rock move a little?

 

while we at it why not make ghost and dark do neutral damage to steel allready? These steel type are everywhere in pvp and that change would even be a canon on since it's how it works in the later gen.

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2 hours ago, ThePrettyPetard said:

since this isn't vanilla game wouldn't it be better to just say fuck gamefreak's pooped "balance" on that and just modify the rock move a little?

 

while we at it why not make ghost and dark do neutral damage to steel allready? These steel type are everywhere in pvp and that change would even be a canon on since it's how it works in the later gen.

Nah, every time they do that the game gets worse.  90 power outrage, milotic and conk with burn mechanics they no business having in gen 5, eviolite chansey that can't be 1hkod by anything

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 288-342 (80.8 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

because terrakion is missing.  Just use stone edge machamp if you want your rock moves to hit. 

 

Honestly, how many of you knew that conkeldurr can't 1hko chansey?  Don't even get me started on all the things wrong with that mon.  Worst decision gamefreak ever made was giving that thing an eviolite

Edited by Aard
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3 hours ago, ThePrettyPetard said:

while we at it why not make ghost and dark do neutral damage to steel allready? These steel type are everywhere in pvp and that change would even be a canon on since it's how it works in the later gen.

No, this change was made due to Aegislash and Fairy type's implementation. All it'd do is make Gengar and Hydreigon into even bigger threats forcing people to run even more Chanseys/Blisseys.

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7 hours ago, Aard said:

eviolite chansey that can't be 1hkod by anything

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 338-400 (94.9 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 361-429 (101.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

I guess you dont choose the right mons 

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5 hours ago, Bubaili said:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 338-400 (94.9 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 361-429 (101.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

I guess you dont choose the right mons 

I knew someone would use mienshaso. Mienshao actually only has a 50% chance of winning because of protect.  High jump kick is not a reliable way to beat a protect user.  And Adamant Lucario?  That's ugly.  Jolly isn't as good but you probably ran that first and were surprised at how well chansey tanked.

 

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 307-361 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

 I can make up things no1 runs too.  Sure, in real gen 5 you had keldeo and terrakion, but here if you want a fighting type that outspeeds thing like chandelure and excadrill out of weather you're stuck running this thing jolly.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 624-735 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

Oh wait, that doesn't even kill even if protect weren't an issue.

 

 

Obviously some things ko, they just aren't in ou because they aren't very good outside of killing chansey or they have some major weakness like high jump kick.  And again, not counting mienmiss.

 

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 386-456 (108.4 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

The amount chansey limits teambuilding and stalls out otherwise fun games into situations of waiting for slot machine crits just isn't what I signed up for.  It a low skill cap mon.  Its like teemo in league of legends.  Its a trash character with no redeeming qualities that wins on luck.  The game in all generations 5-7 would be better without it.

 

Its also why the people at the top of ranked matchmaking for the most part have trouble breaking a 60% winrrate.  Stall has a winrrate cap because crit turns pile up over time.  You can keep making braindead predictionless moves, but its just not going to work over 60% of the time.  Unfortunately, offense in ou is so artificially nerfed where it can't get over 60% wins.  Its to the point where stall players now complain about silly offensive things like togekiss.  If togekiss is really the most threatening thing to stall then what does that say about the state of the meta?  Serene grace nasty plot airslash hax is how a lot of people are forced to deal with stall.  Everything else is stacked in favor of stall so much we are down to flinchhax.

 

Edited by Aard
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Ofc its frustrating to loose vs stall when you play an offense team cz stall players dont need to use their brain that much to win. 

 

I agree with ur point about that but its not like there was no ways to deal with it. Even without togekiss. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bubaili said:

Ofc its frustrating to loose vs stall when you play an offense team cz stall players dont need to use their brain that much to win. 

 

I agree with ur point about that but its not like there was no ways to deal with it. Even without togekiss.

 

The ways to deal with it aren't fun.  That's the issue.  Pokemon are fun to battle with because they well defined strengths and weaknesses.  Scizor is popular because its very good at threatening a lot of things but no one thinks its broken because the flow of play is to try to hit it with a fire move.  It has a rhythm to it that feels good.  If it was living +1 volcarona fiery dances people would feel different even if it could still be beaten by skarmory or togekiss or whatever else.  Having to slow the pace of the game down by 10 turns with awkward strategies just to pp stall a chansey with gengar or flinchhax it with togekiss or play this repetitive switch game where my physical mons with neutral attacks can never do above 50%

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 292-345 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

.  Yeah, great mon... so good.

 

 

This is a thread for salt and I just don't get why anyone would be complaining about rock move accuracy when there's this obese pokemon that ruins the pace of the game and is years overdue to get a heart attack and die.  

Edited by Aard
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1 minute ago, LipeHaru said:

Use knock off and remove it's eviolite... damn

Don't bother, the guy wants to punch through the mountain. We've told him that there's ways around it, he can walk around it, he can climb it, he can go through already existing tunnels but he insists on punching through it and the game is somehow ruined if he cannot destroy it in one punch.

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47 minutes ago, LipeHaru said:

Use knock off and remove it's eviolite... damn

The nerfed knock off too.

 

42 minutes ago, suigin said:

Don't bother, the guy wants to punch through the mountain. We've told him that there's ways around it, he can walk around it, he can climb it, he can go through already existing tunnels but he insists on punching through it and the game is somehow ruined if he cannot destroy it in one punch.

You've selectively eliminated the most common gen5 ways around it.  The whole cofag, milotic, chansey core simply didn't work in gen 5 and that was a good thing.  Stall was still really powerful too, just not overbearing.

 

Its not just a mountain.  Its an artificially constructed mountain in the middle of nowhere flatlands and its made out of poop. 

 

Chansey getting an absurd defense buff was never a good design choice, but when 2 of the 3 best fighting types are missing (3 of the 4 if you count breloom missing its hidden) and physical dragons are nerfed its just dumb.  The game is about punching stuff and killing it, not about people going and hiding in mountains for 10 years like they are some wannabe terrorist.

 

Just because you ko it by pp stalling it with a gengar or getting enough air slash flinches with togekiss doesn't mean it was a quality addition to the game.

Edited by Aard
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19 minutes ago, Aard said:

The nerfed knock off too.

Knock Off being nerfed only means certain offensive mons won't use it, it's still a great, game changing move that plenty of mons can run and completely ruin Chansey's day if it gets cocky and stays on them.

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You've selectively eliminated the most common gen5 ways around it.   Stall was still really powerful too, just not overbearing.

Then use other ways, it's not like they are lacking. Hell there's only one stall player in the top 10 of the ladder

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The whole cofag, milotic, chansey core simply didn't work in gen 5 and that was a good thing.

There's plenty of cores that wouldn't work in vanilla gen5 but work here too, it being a good thing is completely subjective and in this case it's not even centralizing. And the fact is if Chansey was overwhelming without other Pokemon the same way something like let's say Latios would be, we would have noticed and taken action, alas it's not even used half as much as Blissey is, due to how passive it is.

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Chansey getting an absurd defense buff was never a good design choice, but when 2 of the 3 best fighting types are missing and physical dragons are nerfed its just dumb.  The game is about punching stuff and killing it, not about people going and hiding in mountains for 10 years like they are some wannabe terrorist.

No, the game is about making things lose hp, not punching through them, it was about just punching through them in Gen1, but it has since then evolved. You can Knock Off, use it as set up fodder, chip it down with hazards using momentum control, Trick it, the trade off for Chansey to barely get OHKO'd from full is that it won't ever OHKO you either.

Edited by suigin
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27 minutes ago, suigin said:

Knock Off being nerfed only means certain offensive mons won't use it, it's still a great, game changing move that plenty of mons can run and completely ruin Chansey's day if it gets cocky and stays on them.

Its something that is only useful to run on stall teams.  Running it on an offensive team is bad.  I agree with the nerf because there's no megas to tank the full powered move here.

 

27 minutes ago, suigin said:

Then use other ways, it's not like they are lacking.

Its not like the game is static.  Over time, more and more offensive things are nerfed and more and more stall things are buffed.  A certain play style is being strangled out.  Being told to switch because some people decided to make up their own rules independent of how the game is usually played is just annoying.  There's other tiers that are more enjoyable.

 

27 minutes ago, suigin said:

There's plenty of cores that wouldn't work in vanilla gen5 but work here too, it being a good thing is completely subjective and in this case it's not even centralizing. And the fact is if Chansey was overwhelming without other Pokemon the same way something like let's say Latios would be, we would have noticed and taken action, alas it's not even used half as much as Blissey is, due to how passive it is.

Blissey is just a worse poke than chansey.  They are so similar though that you can really just group them together and get a 32% usage rate which a good deal higher than anything else in the tier.  That said, usage has always been a bad argument for if something is broken.  I don't see what comparing chansey to an offensive sweeper does except make it look less threatening.  Mega sableye was banned and comparing it to some random offensive threat would look the same.  And I'm not even arguing for banning chansey.  Just pointing out the outrage nerf significantly helps it as well as the lack of fighting types.

 

27 minutes ago, suigin said:

No, the game is about making things lose hp, not punching through them, it was about just punching through them in Gen1, but it has since then evolved. You can Knock Off, use it as set up fodder, chip it down with hazards using momentum control, Trick it, the trade off for Chansey to barely get OHKO'd from full is that it won't ever OHKO you either.

I'm aware there's many ways of dealing with chansey.  That's great.  Why nerf one certain playstyle though arbitrarily?

 

Overall, I'm just not sure why choice band dragonite and dragon dance  physical salamence are so scary they had to be nerfed into practically being unusable.

 

 

If someone could give any sort of even half-decent argument for why choice band dragonite with 120 outrage is too powerful for the meta I'd change my opinion.  From where I'm sitting its just looks like a desperate attempt to help stall players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aard
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20 hours ago, suigin said:

No, this change was made due to Aegislash and Fairy type's implementation. All it'd do is make Gengar and Hydreigon into even bigger threats forcing people to run even more Chanseys/Blisseys.

oh yeah not like hydreigon could allready learn fire move that are in all case a better choice than using a dark move with normal effectiveness. looking at gengar that thing for suuuure doesn't have fighting move that could do better against a few steel type and could put a dent in a chansey/blissey.

 

beside for making gengar slightly more powerfull i'll have to question how you got into the tier council to be saying hydreigon is a good reason to not make dark and ghost do NEUTRAL damage to steel when the only difference it would make would be switching in a steel type in when you predict a dark move.

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8 minutes ago, Aard said:

Its something that is only useful to run on stall teams.  Running it on an offensive team is bad.  I agree with the nerf because there's no megas to tank the full powered move here.

Balance teams can run it fine. Offense and stall are not the only archetypes.

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Its not like the game is static.  Over time, more and more offensive things are nerfed and more and more stall things are buffed.  A certain play style is being strangled out.  Being told to switch because some people decided to make up their own rules independent of how the game is usually played is just annoying.  There's other tiers that are more enjoyable.

There are probably not going to be any changes to OU mons any time soon. The reason why certain things get nerfed is because otherwise we predict them to be Uber worthy and our goal is to keep as many things away from Uber tier as possible and right now we feel like OU is a pretty balanced state. Sorry you cannot spam Outrage, but chances are Dragon spam would eventually get mons like Mence, Dnite and Haxorus banned due to lack of mons like Jirachi, Heatran and other offensive threats like Scarf Terrakion to revenge kill them.

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Blissey is just a worse poke than chansey.  They are so similar though that you can really just group them together and get a 32% usage rate which a good deal higher than anything else in the tier.  That said, usage has always been a bad argument for if something is broken.  I don't see what comparing chansey to an offensive sweeper does except make it look less threatening.  Mega sableye was banned and comparing it to some random offensive threat would look the same.  And I'm not even arguing for banning chansey.  Just pointing out the outrage nerf significantly helps it as well as the lack of fighting types.

Blissey is a better mon than Chansey though, its problem is that it's stretched so thin by its coverage due to stallbreakers (Problem that Chansey inherently has too but cannot really do anything about it) setting up on it. Hell the most common Blissey right now has Shadow Ball which doesn't even break Chandelure's sub after 2 CMs, but it's desperate to win that 50/50 in the second CM otherwise it downright loses.

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Overall, I'm just not sure why choice band dragonite and dragon dance  physical salamence are so scary they had to be nerfed into practically being unusable. 

CB Dnite is one of the better wallbreakers in MMO right now though, top tier players like EVLGOON and HuanLiu tend to use it. I'll agree with Phys Mence being on the weak side right now but it's still pretty viable through its special sets, so it's not like it's downright worthless.

 

 

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oh yeah not like hydreigon could allready learn fire move that are in all case a better choice than using a dark move with normal effectiveness.

Yeah but it makes it more spammable, meaning Hydreigon would love to blindly spam Dark Pulse without any chance of outplay.

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looking at gengar that thing for suuuure doesn't have fighting move that could do better against a few steel type

Again, spammability, and that fighting move has a 30% chance to miss. In the case where Scizor switches into a Gengar predicting Shadow Ball to Pursuit trap it, in gen5 it could do it, in gen6, it gets 2hKO'd.

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when the only difference it would make would be switching in a steel type in when you predict a dark move.

We also don't have fairy type to switch into Hydreigon's Dark Pulse, so why arbitrarily buff Dark type?

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1 hour ago, suigin said:

 The reason why certain things get nerfed is because otherwise we predict them to be Uber worthy

 

Sorry you cannot spam Outrage, but chances are Dragon spam would eventually get mons like Mence, Dnite and Haxorus banned due to lack of mons like Jirachi, Heatran and other offensive threats like Scarf Terrakion to revenge kill them.

Skarmory?  Ferrothorn? Weavile/mamoswine? Excadrill?  Kingdra?  All of those completely destroy a choice locked outrage either by tanking it, outspeeding it, or both.

 

There's a lot more to deal with dragons than what you listed and literally the only relevant change to calcs is on hard neutral stall mons like chansey and milotic and cofag.  The change blatantly by design favors stall. 

 

 

 

Hearing there's going to be no changes is discouraging since the tier is really not in a good place.  Hopefully HA's will fix it I guess. 

 

Edited by Aard
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22 minutes ago, Aard said:

Skarmory?  Ferrothorn? Weavile/mamoswine? Excadrill?  Kingdra?  All of those completely destroy a choice locked outrage either by tanking it, outspeeding it, or both.

 

There's a lot more to deal with dragons than what you listed and literally the only relevant change to calcs is on hard neutral stall mons like chansey and milotic and cofag.  The change blatantly by design favors stall.

All of those either require a sac to get them in, or get utterly destroyed on the switch if you guess wrong making your team extremely vulnerable to Outrage after that misplay.

Weavile and Mamoswine would work, sure, until people start running Yache berries for Mence, +1 Dnite can kill Weavile with Espeed after rocks 93% of the time and neither can rk +1 Haxorus anyways.

Offense would actually be hurt a lot by this change too, due to its variety being centralized around using Dragons and trying to play around those dragons.

 

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Hearing there's going to be no changes is discouraging since the tier is really not in a good place.

I've asked many players, including one I tend to disagree with a lot, and they believe OU is balanced really well, plenty of different playstyles are viable: weather offense, HO, balance, bulky offense and finally stall, with the last two being kind of on the weak side. The only problem is probably the lack of variety on mons used, but that's a problem inherent with Pokemon.

You're the only person I've seen complain about Stall at all, and whenever provided with an answer to it, you fall back on the fact that you should be able to click Outrage and break past it with ease and anything else is "unnatural".

Is stall completely unviable? No, it can do well provided the player knows what he's doing. Is stall overpowered in any way? No, there are plenty of answers that, with some support can easily dismantle any stall team. It sounds like the metagame is in a balanced state.

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  Hopefully HA's will fix it I guess.  

I'm looking forward to stuff like Adaptability Crawdaunt and Technician Breloom, but considering we'll also be getting Regenerator walls, I wouldn't put my hope on stall fully dying once they are implemented.

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