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Aard

Is 90 BP Outrage really good for the current meta? Would 120 BP Outrage fix all the problems of OU?

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Aard   

Outrage was changed to 90 bp in a 3rd gen metagame where there were a total of 4 dragons.  Over the years, pokemmo has updated to include 5th gen pokes with 7th gen mechanics which means there are now many more strategies for walling these dragons.  Here, we look at the effect of 90 BP outrage on the current meta.  Steel options for walling like Skarmory and Ferrothorn will not be considered because they will always comfortably wall any dragon move.

 

A closer look:

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 88-105 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

+1 252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 93-111 (46 - 54.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 204-240 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

  252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 222-262 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 217-256 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 88-105 (53.3 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 96-114 (58.1 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 93-111 (56.3 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Overall, the base power seems okay where it is.  After knocking out all of the steel counters, it is expected a boosted dragon threat should be able to 2hko these neutral walls (or 1hko at half hp).  A late game dragon sweep on a 2-3 turn locked in move before confusion kicks in is acceptable.  Sure, increasing the base power would insure less luck based play with Salamence, but overall outrage is okay at 90 BP.

 

 

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Yeah, that was 120 BP.   Really overpowered, right?  Let's actually look at 90 BP now.

 

 

90 BP Outrage:

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 67-79 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 73-87 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

+1 252 Atk Haxorus 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 153-181 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 168-198 (47 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Haxorus 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 67-79 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 73-87 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Haxorus 90 BP Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 70-84 (42.4 - 50.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

 

Okay, so now if a player knocks out all of the opposing steel threats, locking into outrage is only a safe bet if you have these walls somewhere under half health.  It's an interesting change.

 

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But is anyone really going to use a move with the downside of being locked into it and being confused for a mere 10 BP boost?  Only if they are crazy enough to run focus energy sniper kingdra, but that's another debate.

 

 

Let's take a look at the calcs with dragon claw which is the actual move used by players:

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 58-70 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 64-76 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

+1 252 Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 63-75 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 135-160 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 144-171 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

+1 252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 58-70 (35.1 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 64-76 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 63-75 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

Okay, so now if a player removes all of the steel threats from the opposing team and decides to lock into their best STAB move on choice band dragonite...they get in a pp stall war with CHANSEY.  A choice band 135 base attack dragonite cannot 2hko chansey with its best stab move.  What?

 

I wonder why stall is so common.

5th - Blissey - 21.98% of teams   (Could've just used this over Chansey and all the attacks would do about 5% more after leftovers recovery)

7th - Milotic - 19.01% of teams

10th - Cofagrigus - 15.54% of teams

11th - Salamence - 15.05% of teams

28th - Dragonite - 9.30% of teams

29th - Chansey - 9.28% of teams

45th - Haxorus - 3.10% of teams

 

 

 

Also, I didn't even bother calculating Hippowdon, Gliscor, Mantine, defensive Tentacruel, and so on.

 

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I've seen arguments on both sides about this, and while I'm not going to go through them all, there are a few that I really don't think are logical.

 

 

"Dragons were overpowered in gen 5 so Nintendo had to nerf them by introducing fairy types in gen 6.  PokeMMO is just doing what is needed to fix a broken type."

 

Nintendo never cared about Gen 5 OU.  They were trying to make VGC doubles, where powerful Uber dragons exist, more balanced.  And even then their solution was a lot more complex than just nerfing outrage.

 

"In Smogon Gen 5 OU people could spam dragons."

 

It required trapping steels with Magnezone and while viable was by no means the best strategy.  Also, every dragon spam team had Garchomp and a Lati.  Most had Kyurem-B.  SImply wouldn't work on Pokemmo if Outrage was put to 120 BP because there aren't enough powerful dragons.

 

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Here's a logically consistent one that doesn't address the issue:

 

"Stall is popular because of Conkeldurr and Hydreigon, not because outrage is nerfed.  The nerf is good."

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 120-142 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 180-213 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

 

 

Maybe some of these other things are so powerful because a strategy for easily switching in and setting up / OHKOing them doesn't work.  Everything in the meta has an effect on everything else.  I see a trend of physical dragons being more useless than they should be and stall being better than it should be.  There's all sorts of situations that play out more naturally when outrage BP is 120.

 

 

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Overall, late game physical dragon sweeps are nerfed into near uselessness.  Was this strategy really overpowered in gen 5?  Is a game changing mechanic thought up in gen 3 where Snorlax was Uber really applicable to this situation?

 

 

Most importantly, are you guys happy with OU right now? 

 

 

I'm aware that not all my arguments are air tight and that holes can be poked in how I picked pokes and what calcs I chose to include and so on.  This took a while, and the point is to start a discussion. 

 

 

My personal opinion is that the OU meta would have almost all of its problems solved if Outrage was just changed back to its intended 120 base power.  It is the #1 problem of the tier that no one is talking about.

 

 

 

Discuss away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

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TohnR   

Angry Aard. That's some work you put into it. I am not intelligent enough to do relevant comments about it tho :'( 

I do agree Dragon Dancers in general are walled way too easily however I don't see how one move can solve OU's problem :p

Edited by TohnR

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pachima   

120 BP wouldn´t fix current OU issues, but I see no harm in making Outrage the power it supposedly should have.

People in the past said 120 BP would be too broken in our meta, but I, like you did, don´t quite follow that logic.

On the other hand, 90 BP outrage is worthless lol.

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razimove   
6 hours ago, pachima said:

120 BP wouldn´t fix current OU issues, but I see no harm in making Outrage the power it supposedly should have.

People in the past said 120 BP would be too broken in our meta, but I, like you did, don´t quite follow that logic.

On the other hand, 90 BP outrage is worthless lol.

I don't believe it would be broken, but at the same time, would it make the meta any different, would be just one more tool, to make dragons even more viable imo, which might be meta harmful(?).

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Aard   
18 minutes ago, razimove said:

I don't believe it would be broken, but at the same time, would it make the meta any different, would be just one more tool, to make dragons even more viable imo, which might be meta harmful(?).

It would make a difference.  People are evaluating the impact of sets like choice band Dragonite and dragon dance physical Salamence inaccurately.  They are late game threats that end games when an opponent is sufficiently behind.  Somewhere along the line with all the new stall additions, these sets went from borderline broken to a late-game necessity.  Like you said, 120 bp outrage isn't overpowered anymore.    I think a lot of these hour long stall wars would go away and conk/hydr usage would go down with more offensive options available. 

 

Yes, a lot of what I'm saying is speculation, but putting the 120 bp back and seeing what happens is worth the risk.

 

8 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

your title is click bait. nothing will "solve all the problems in ou". but agreed on 120bp for different reasons. 

Fair.  I hear people all the time saying the addition of hidden abilities and legendaries will fix ou.  I think this would do more to move the tier in a positive direction than either of those things combined.  Can't tell you how many times I have a team with 5 things built and have to scrap it because the Dragonite or Salamence simply isn't outputting the damage it should.  Then I'm stuck building around Conk, Hydr, and weather if I want offense. 

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