DaftCoolio Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 The recent departure of Scraggy from Little Cup has meant the further emergence of Misdreavus in the tier. Relatively similar to Gengar in our old OU, Misdreavus is incredibly well rounded and can perform a variety of roles effectively within a team. Access to moves such as calm mind, will-o-wisp, thunder wave, pain split, taunt can make this pokemon difficult to face when it isn't blowing you away with its diverse attacking moves like shadow ball thunderbolt psychic and then the possibility of hidden power. Arguably what makes Misdreavous so dangerous is its speed. Hitting 19, with a timid nature ,lets you out speed borderline everything that isn't scarf and when you pair this speed with moves like will-o-wisp or calm mind getting in first can make a big difference. Porygon is fairly reliable but can struggle against sub cm, Munchlax can also work but can lose out to will-o-wisp sets. Pawniard, Houndour and Vullaby can work but are dependent on the Misdreavus set. Other hipster things im sure people like pachima will post about. Also other physical fire types like Ponyta and Larvesta with flame charge could be interesting but are more checks than counters and even then hp rock while probably non-existent on Misdreavus is a possibility. The tier council would like to hear your thoughts on Misdreavus in the current Little Cup tier, whether you believe it is banworthy and should be sent to the shadow realm or let it stay in Little Cup and have us continue to struggle to spell its name correctly. OrangeManiac, xSparkie, WildHodor and 14 others 17 Link to comment
gbwead Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) My list of shitty checks/counters: Venonat Spoiler Venonat @ Eviolite Ability: Tinted Lens Level: 5 EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 SpD Careful Nature - Leech Life - Morning Sun - Agility - Disable or - Leech Life - Morning Sun - Screech (going through sub) Bronzor Spoiler Bronzor @ Berry Juice Ability: Levitate Level: 5 EVs: 60 HP / 220 Atk / 228 SpD Brave Nature - Payback - Recycle Fire Types: Spoiler Ponyta @ Eviolite Ability: Flash Fire Level: 5 EVs: 196 HP / 76 Atk / 236 SpD Careful Nature - Flame Charge - Morning Sun - Toxic Larvesta @ Eviolite Ability: Flame Body Level: 5 EVs: 156 HP / 236 SpD / 116 Spe Careful Nature - Flame Charge - Morning Sun - Toxic Growlithe @ Eviolite Ability: Intimidate Level: 5 EVs: 76 HP / 116 Atk / 196 SpD / 116 Spe Careful Nature - Flame Charge - Toxic - Morning Sun Lileep Spoiler Lileep @ Eviolite Ability: Suction Cups Level: 5 EVs: 68 HP / 108 Atk / 220 SpD Careful Nature - Recover - Bullet Seed - Sandstorm Munchlax Spoiler Munchlax @ Berry Juice Ability: Thick Fat Level: 5 EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD Careful Nature - Recycle - Amnesia - Pursuit / Seed Bomb Porygon Spoiler Porygon @ Eviolite Ability: Trace Level: 5 EVs: 236 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpD Calm Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Foul Play - Recover - Thunder Wave Some grass types with access to Synthesis might be able to stop Misdreavus as well. Maybe Foongus Foul Play/Pay Back or Bulbasaur Amnesia? Edited October 30, 2018 by gbwead Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I think gb's list of reliable MisD counters is pretty spot on and that is my biggest concern about it. Lots of the sets just seem very gimmicky in order to check Misdreavus. Not amazing thing if we want to have the tier open for further creativity and diversity. And worst thing about them is that although they do beat Misdreavus 1v1, it is very rarely a clean trade-off so the value you get out of Misdreavus even in the worst case scenario makes it quite Uberworthy to my taste. Although Misdreavus for sure is technically more checkable than Scraggy and Murkrow was, for example. Quote Other hipster things im sure people like pachima will post about. actually lol'd Zymogen, xSparkie and RysPicz 3 Link to comment
Zymogen Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I’m not overly familiar with LC so this is just speculation, but would Mienfoo not become an issue were it not for Misdreavus? It’s probably the wrong way to be looking at it but I seem to remember a similar “necessary evil” argument being used when Poliwrath was rife in old meta NU, as it kept stuff like Aggron and Sharpedo locked down Laz, Luke, AxLKGhost and 1 other 4 Link to comment
MaatthewMLG Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 5 hours ago, DaftCoolio said: beautiful drawing DaftCoolio, Dibz, IndicaBabu and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 4 hours ago, Zymogen said: I’m not overly familiar with LC so this is just speculation, but would Mienfoo not become an issue were it not for Misdreavus? It’s probably the wrong way to be looking at it but I seem to remember a similar “necessary evil” argument being used when Poliwrath was rife in old meta NU, as it kept stuff like Aggron and Sharpedo locked down Mienfoo has many other checks/counters that banning misdreavus would not have an impact on it. Also a piece of tiering advice is that you shouldn't worry about what the future meta will look like, as you can always fix the future meta by banning something else. Overall, I'm a bit split on misdreavus currently. I'm inclined to say it's not banworthy currently, but if it gains access to nasty plot via spiritomb, that would definitely push it over the edge as it means porygon/munchlax can no longer avoid being 2hko'ed by misdreavus. As it stands currently, misdreavus seems to be running shadow ball+hp fighting almost always, with either sub+calm mind, pain split+will o wisp, or sub+thunderbolt as the last 2 moves. Eviolite roost vullaby is able to stop all of these sets and the only one it would struggle against would be a misdreavus that has calm mind and thunderbolt, which means that misdreavus will no longer have a protection against status and won't be able to scout enemy switches with substitute. Another important thing to note is that misdreavus is mostly bulky from its eviolite, so if you knock it off with mienfoo, ferroseed, timburr, etc, then it becomes much easier to stop. I think in the current LC meta, there is enough offensive pressure for misdreavus to rarely get a good chance to set up, and the viability of scarf users is high enough that a set up misdreavus can still be revenge killed fairly easily. It also helps that vullaby+porygon, two of the better answers to misdreavus, are also very viable A/S rank mons in the LC meta, so you're not really being forced to run weird gimmicks to deal with misdreavus, unlike what gbwead is trying to claim. Zymogen 1 Link to comment
Laz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) Honestly ban it, so I can spam my scarfed dynamic punch machop and gg every team. --' E: wouldn't a complex ban fix misdreavus issue? Will o wisp is the main problem imo. Careful munchlax and hippo crunch can easily beat misdreavus 1v1. Also munchlax can stockpile, so if it's not burned, misdreavus loses against it. And as stated above, if misdreavus is gone, Fighting pokemons will dominate the tier tbh. Edited October 30, 2018 by Lazaaro Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 @laz whether it would or wouldnt solve the isuse complex bans are a last resort. Link to comment
Laz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said: @laz whether it would or wouldnt solve the isuse complex bans are a last resort. Like i said, once misdreavus is banned, gl stopping dynamich punch machop. Gengar and drifloon can be easily trapped by pursuit munchlax, scarfed dynamic punch has 50% to win against vullaby, and cb dynamic punch is a guaranteed 2hko so. Also jolly eviolite rock slide always hits, so vullaby probably wont be an answer to machop. So yeah, the consequences of banning misdreavus are terrible imo. Link to comment
pachima Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lazaaro said: Like i said, once misdreavus is banned, gl stopping dynamich punch machop. Gengar and drifloon can be easily trapped by pursuit munchlax, scarfed dynamic punch has 50% to win against vullaby, and cb dynamic punch is a guaranteed 2hko so. Also jolly eviolite rock slide always hits, so vullaby probably wont be an answer to machop. So yeah, the consequences of banning misdreavus are terrible imo. use slowpoke Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Lazaaro said: Like i said, once misdreavus is banned, gl stopping dynamich punch machop. Gengar and drifloon can be easily trapped by pursuit munchlax, scarfed dynamic punch has 50% to win against vullaby, and cb dynamic punch is a guaranteed 2hko so. Also jolly eviolite rock slide always hits, so vullaby probably wont be an answer to machop. So yeah, the consequences of banning misdreavus are terrible imo. argument of "if you ban this broken thing, this other thing will be broken" is wrong. ban all the broken things and you have a balanced tier. if something is actually broken and only kept in check by this other broken thing, it is broken and needs to go. Link to comment
Laz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 12 hours ago, DaftCoolio said: Other hipster things im sure people like pachima will post about. 5 minutes ago, pachima said: use slowpoke 1 minute ago, fredrichnietze said: argument of "if you ban this broken thing, this other thing will be broken" is wrong. ban all the broken things and you have a balanced tier. if something is actually broken and only kept in check by this other broken thing, it is broken and needs to go. Welp if wow is banned on misdreavus ( the same way draco meteor is banned on hydreigon ), problem solved. But yeah not everyone can agree Link to comment
RysPicz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I wouldn't be scared of scarf dynamicpunch machop after Misd's departure. Metagame will always evolve and find it's way to handle the issue- no matter how obscure the counter is. Imo LC would have a big bunch of pokes capable of either stopping or even countering Machop. Golett, Foongus, Larvesta (flame body ftw), Solosis, Drifloon, Gastly... And these are coming to my mind just now, without actually playing the tier (I'm slowly getting into it ;) ). People will adapt, don't worry. The fact that something that isn't used at all currently will rise in usage due to disappearance of a broken mon like MisD shouldn't be an argument. We should never keep a broken mon in a tier to keep another broken mon in check. fredrichnietze 1 Link to comment
Laz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, RysPicz said: I wouldn't be scared of scarf dynamicpunch machop after Misd's departure. Metagame will always evolve and find it's way to handle the issue- no matter how obscure the counter is. Imo LC would have a big bunch of pokes capable of either stopping or even countering Machop. Golett, Foongus, Larvesta (flame body ftw), Solosis, Drifloon, Gastly... And these are coming to my mind just now, without actually playing the tier (I'm slowly getting into it ;) ). People will adapt, don't worry. The fact that something that isn't used at all currently will rise in usage due to disappearance of a broken mon like MisD shouldn't be an argument. We should never keep a broken mon in a tier to keep another broken mon in check. Why was hydreigon complex banned instead of just being banned is what tilts me. Why can't we do the same in lc since it can clearly fix the problem. RysPicz 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, Lazaaro said: Why was hydreigon complex banned instead of just being banned is what tilts me. Why can't we do the same in lc since it can clearly fix the problem. I totally agree with you here, I'm also trifled and really not fond of Hydrei not having access to Draco Meteor as I totally fail to see how it would suddenly become OP, especially without even giving us a chance to use it. It already has a 4mss... actually let's move this discussion here cuz I'm making a post about it as we speak :p Link to comment
gbwead Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I personally don't see Misdreavus as broken, just potentially unhealthy. Zymogen 1 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, Lazaaro said: 17 minutes ago, RysPicz said: Why was hydreigon complex banned instead of just being banned is what tilts me. agreed Laz 1 Link to comment
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