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[OU Discussion] Conkeldurr


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Just now, gbwead said:

This is the OU Discussion Thread for Conkeldurr. Can we please focus on the topic of the thread? Machamp has nothing to do with Conkeldurr being banworthy or not.

We are just discussing about possible Conkeldurr's replacements if it does gets banned, but alright.

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46 minutes ago, gbwead said:

This is the OU Discussion Thread for Conkeldurr. Can we please focus on the topic of the thread? Machamp has nothing to do with Conkeldurr being banworthy or not.

Thank you.  Orange's original Machamp post was propaganda designed to sway the argument over to the proban side without giving any valid reasoning and it caused people to debate for 20 posts as if conk was already uber.  Trickery like that is unfortunate but hopefully now we all know better.

 

 

 

Anyway I have two reasons for not wanting it banned:

 

 

1) No one  I've seen has given a good answer to why conkeldurr is broken despite its multiple checks that only fail to wall it because of one uncommon move.  Cores like Gliscor and Reuniculus only fail to wall conks with the specific set of payback and ice punch.  This is not a common set and even if it does appear conk still has to outpredict to win since it is slower than most switches that come in.  Many combinations of similar pokes can be put up to wall conk in this manner and combos like this have many other uses besides just walling conk.

 

 

2) The update has only been out for two weeks and the meta has not had time to settle especially now that sheer force is disabled.  I don't see proof that conk is so broken that it needs to be quickbanned therefore meaning it should be left in for at least a couple of months until people have an opportunity to learn the meta better.

 

  

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31 minutes ago, Aard said:

1) No one  I've seen has given a good answer to why conkeldurr is broken despite its multiple checks that only fail to wall it because of one uncommon move.  Cores like Gliscor and Reuniculus only fail to wall conks with the specific set of payback and ice punch.  This is not a common set and even if it does appear conk still has to outpredict to win since it is slower than most switches that come in.  Many combinations of similar pokes can be put up to wall conk in this manner and combos like this have many other uses besides just walling conk.

I'll give you some answers why Conkeldurr is broken.

The set which I see most common is with Facade nowdays. Not only most common but also, most broken. Drain, Mach, Ice Punch, Facade. Facade 2shots your Reuni, Ice Punch one shots Gliscor. Gyara gets 2 shoted, Tenta one (or two if it's bulky) shoted, Dragons one shoted, only Hippo can stay on it but even then, it will not 1v1 burned guts Conk due to Ice Punch dealing almost 50% and drain punch healing the HP back, plus it really needs to be 252/252+ and the field has to be hazard-free for Hippo to actually do that. Skarm sacrifices itself to kill it. Gengar would prooobably need to carry Sludge Wave and hope that Conk isn't sdef invested, while it would also need to avoid a lethal ice punch (62.5% to OHKO after rocks). The only poke able to switch in would be a Chandelure, which is suspectible to all hazards and pursuit from one of the most common and powerful OUs, Tyranitar.

 

Name me a pokemon aside from Chandelure and Cofagrigus (lol) that can safely switch into this set, without the "JuSt pReDiCt LoL" argument. I do not see Cofag as a viable OU pokemon at all, at least for now and Chandelure gets ripped apart by hazards and ttar + has no recovery. Also Ice Punch does like what, 30% even if resisted

Spoiler

If this argument would be viable, Marshadow wouldn't be banned from US/UM OU ^_^

39 minutes ago, Aard said:

2) The update has only been out for two weeks and the meta has not had time to settle especially now that sheer force is disabled.  I don't see proof that conk is so broken that it needs to be quickbanned therefore meaning it should be left in for at least a couple of months until people have an opportunity to learn the meta better.

Only update with legendaries and a massive power and speed creep flowing into the meta can actually change anything. We simply do not have the means to stop Conk, Senile has already explained it in one of his posts way better than I ever could and I don't wanna repeat the same arguments which were already posted. For this moment, Conk is just broken.

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3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Drain, Mach, Ice Punch, Facade.  Facade 2shots your Reuni, Ice Punch one shots Gliscor. Gyara gets 2 shoted, Tenta one (or two if it's bulky) shoted, Dragons one shoted

Facade is interesting, I hadnt really looked at that much.  Skarmory walls that set and can brave bird back so its not just chandelure that walls it.  Also, if gyarados is full defensive it walls.   

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 121-144 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Also, Jellicent walls that set.

 

And with Gliscor, the offensive sword dance set 1hko's kills if its switch into something that's not ice punch or bulk up.

 

252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 432-510 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

 

 

Edited by Aard
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1 minute ago, Aard said:

Facade doesn't 2 shot Reuni

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 153-181 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Facade doesn't 2 shot gyara and defensive gyara completely walls your set

-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 143-169 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 143-169 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Facade sort of 2 shots tenta , definitely doesn't one shot

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

You're right about the ice punch calcs.  Some fact checking on these things would be nice.

 

And with gliscor, if you run it offensive/swords dance then conkel really needs to land ice punch on the switch or its dead:

252+ Atk Flying Gem Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 432-510 (123 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Anyway, facade is interesting.  I don't think its really very good though.

 

 

 

I disagree with your comment regarding offensive Gliscor. Calc Guts boosted Facade or even Drain Punch vs it, and tell me it does no damage; I would do it myself but I’m on my phone. Conk is not forced to predict around offensive Gliscor and is not punished by just hitting Drain Punch against it on the switch, and switching itself on the next turn, due to SD Gliscor’s poignant lack of recovery. In fact, every one of the checks you listed bar Reuniclus lacks reliable recovery; a trend which is an issue in and of itself.

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3 minutes ago, Zymogen said:

I disagree with your comment regarding offensive Gliscor. Calc Guts boosted Facade or even Drain Punch vs it, and tell me it does no damage; I would do it myself but I’m on my phone. Conk is not forced to predict around offensive Gliscor and is not punished by just hitting Drain Punch against it on the switch, and switching itself on the next turn, due to SD Gliscor’s poignant lack of recovery. In fact, every one of the checks you listed bar Reuniclus lacks reliable recovery; a trend which is an issue in and of itself.

You sniped that one.  I messed up the calc and deleted it within a minute.   If you put a flame orb in on the damage calc site it doesn't auto burn  for guts even though it says facade is 140 bp.  Anyway, all those calcs are wrong and I wrote a new comment.

 

 

Facade does make it worse, I think stuff still walls it and either thunderpunch or ice punch.  And of course confagrgus and eviolite dusclops are always there as hard walls.

Edited by Aard
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make a complex ban on mach punch and still use like a wallbreaker

or

make a complex ban on drain punch and still use it like a "sweeper" (?)

 

because at the moment conkeldurr its just breaking offensive playstyle encouraging even more stall by needing to make cores like reuniclus/cofa + anything that cover all possible conkeldurr coverages.

 

you simply can't revenge kill it with an offensive team whitout lose 1.5 mons or momentum.

 

A single mon breaking an entire playstyle seems pretty unhealthy imo.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, pachima said:

Can someone here understand we are not in a meta where everything should and can be handled 100% of the time?

Dragonite also has no counters, neither kingdra. So the whole conk has no counters too drowns into uselessness.

dragonite can be revenged and in most cases is move locked.

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Just now, Bilburt said:

he didnt, he said most cases, which in the case of dnite is correct

So if I say life orb Dnite has 0 counters, its less of an argument cause people like to run choice items on it?

Also, in the case of Dnite WAS correct before we had draco meteor.

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35 minutes ago, pachima said:

First, Conk is as easily revenged as Dnite is.ç

Second, don´t assume items plz.

conkeldurr just 0hkoed by psiquic and flying moves that are uncommon in the tier.

 

dnite x4 to ice. and rock moves are pretty common.  it takes lot damage from stealth rock and lack recovery so it cant switch in indefinitely, if run roost lose coverage.

 

second, don't compare mons on an specific thread.

Edited by foyone
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55 minutes ago, foyone said:

1.conkeldurr just 0hkoed by psiquic and flying moves that are uncommon in the tier.

 

2.dnite x4 to ice. and rock moves are pretty common.  it takes lot damage from stealth rock and lack recovery so it cant switch in indefinitely, if run roost lose coverage.

 

3.second, don't compare mons on an specific thread.

2

1. This sentence is blatantly wrong. I have listed everything that can check Conkeldurr. Even mienshao can Revenge kill it and doesnt need either of those moves. I suggest you go calc, because way many more mons can revenge kill a conkeldurr.

2. Perhaps the only true thing you are claiming so far.

3. I am not comparing mons. I am comparing their abilities to not get any viable counter. Therefore, if your argument towards banning conk is: Conks is busted cuz it has no counters, then by the same logic, Dnite should be banworthy too cuz it as well possesses no counters. If Dnite isnt banworthy, then neither Conk is (It may be under any other argument, but this one falls right here)

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38 minutes ago, pachima said:

1. This sentence is blatantly wrong. I have listed everything that can check Conkeldurr. Even mienshao can Revenge kill it and doesnt need either of those moves. I suggest you go calc, because way many more mons can revenge kill a conkeldurr.

2. Perhaps the only true thing you are claiming so far.

3. I am not comparing mons. I am comparing their abilities to not get any viable counter. Therefore, if your argument towards banning conk is: Conks is busted cuz it has no counters, then by the same logic, Dnite should be banworthy too cuz it as well possesses no counters. If Dnite isnt banworthy, then neither Conk is (It may be under any other argument, but this one falls right here)

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 281-331 (67.8 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage (lol)

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 321-378 (118.4 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 171-202 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

if conk still full hp after kill something (not weird), the most common mienshao set doesn't get the revenge and get killed (at least yours is adamant, cb or reckless one)

 

 

 

dnite have same status inmunity?

 

which is conk role? wallbreaker? sweeper? (both?)

 

Edited by foyone
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2 minutes ago, foyone said:

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 281-331 (67.8 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 187-222 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage (lol)

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 321-378 (118.4 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 171-202 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

if conk still full hp after kill something (not weird), the most common mienshao set doesn't get the revenge and get killed (at least yours is adamant, cb or reckless one)

 

 

 

what about conk status inmunity?

which is his role? wallbreaker? sweeper? (both?)

 

My bad for forgetting Good conks dont run full 252 hp, and for forgetting common Mienshao doesn't use Fake out.

Also bulk up + 2 fighting moves Conkeldurr only allows it to run one coverage move, which is bad.

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1 minute ago, pachima said:

My bad for forgetting Good conks dont run full 252 hp, and for forgetting common Mienshao doesn't use Fake out.

Also bulk up + 2 fighting moves Conkeldurr only allows it to run one coverage move, which is bad.

on no bulk up set hp evs > spdef evs.

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Salamence is a great revenge killer for Conkeldurr unless it’s still full hp. Either way Draco does a lot to it and I’m sure dnite can accomplish the same thing. And it puts pressure back on the other team.  Knowing that this is coming. 

 

Conk still is just a huge pain to play around though. Especially if it gets in early from what I have seen and it just starts punching holes in your team. By then the match is usually over because of the damage taken. If it’s late game however and you still have a faster spec attacker that’s not weak to fighting you can usually take care of it pretty easily with setting up on it or just removing it.

 

 

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12 hours ago, RysPicz said:

The set which I see most common is with Facade nowdays. Not only most common but also, most broken. Drain, Mach, Ice Punch, Facade. Facade 2shots your Reuni, Ice Punch one shots Gliscor. Gyara gets 2 shoted, Tenta one (or two if it's bulky) shoted, Dragons one shoted, only Hippo can stay on it but even then, it will not 1v1 burned guts Conk due to Ice Punch dealing almost 50% and drain punch healing the HP back, plus it really needs to be 252/252+ and the field has to be hazard-free for Hippo to actually do that

I tested this a lot and I have to disagree with you. Hippo Rocky Helmet will always beat that specific Conkeldurr set as long as it outspeeds Conkeldurr. 252 HP is also not mandatory on Hippo, you can get some speed investment to ensure you outspeed Conkeldurr imo.

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I was travelling for a few days so I was a bit away from this discussion, but I've played and spectated a lot of OU matches from android on the way.

I will just summarize a few things here from my observations,

 

Some people try leading with Conkeldurr, switch it into very dumb things or stuff, please do not rate Conkeldurr's impact according to these players and assume it's managable.

 

Majority of players learned how to use Conkeldurr properly, there is a lose-lose situation against proper usage of Conkeldurr, if someone plays the game like "What if a Conkeldurr is waiting there?" and avoid making some plays to save his/her Conkeldurr checks/counters for later, that person loses a large majority of the matches due limitations the person puts on himself/herself, on the other hand if someone plays regularly without considering "What if a Conkeldurr is waiting there?" a late revealed Conkeldurr will sweep what is remaining without any effort most of the time, without any counter-play option. (Considering Conkeldurr owner do not let something set up horribly in the process or opposing team doesn't have a Conkeldurr unrevealed in his/her pocket too.)

I really doubt Thunder Punch is most used coverage move anymore, majority of Conkeldurrs I've seen are abusing unpredictableness of it's movepool properly right now. I see a fair share of Ice Punches, Paybacks, Facades as well as Thunder Punches and even though people claiming it's easy to deal with once you learn it's coverage move, I've almost never seen a properly used Conkeldurr failing to wreck some things in the revealing process. Also usually once the prepared counters/checks are surprise wrecked, Conkeldurr recovers all the progress done on wearing it down afterwards because options remaining to handle it at late-game will be quite limited. Not to be confused with any other healthy sweepers, sweeping remaining crippled, damaged or squishy but slower mons, we are talking about perfectly healthy mons getting steamrolled here.

I was expecting meta to start adapting to having Conkeldurr around and include more answers to Conkeldurr in teams, what I am actually seeing is more people adding Conkeldurr in their team to stay competitive instead lol.

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