[OU Discussion] Conkeldurr

[PrincessDia]

2 minutes ago, pachima said:

This makes no sense. If a 5v6 where Conk is not coming and where the player with 6 mons doesnt win, why is this a discussion for Conk? Seems more a discussion for whatever People use along with Conk. You are putting too many variables on conks to sweep. You are assuming you can switch in against everything Conk has to switch out, which you cannot.

In scenario you suggested I see nothing wrong with conkeldurr sitting at a corner unrevealed until cofagrigus is gone, if you are willing to set toxic spikes you don't do it at end of game do you? Please think realistic. Yes I am putting too many variables on Conks to sweep because they do that with ease, if yours cannot, it's probably Impish one with 252hp/252def made to counter something in an unorthodox way.

 

8 minutes ago, pachima said:

 Let me ask you this. Lets ignore Conkeldurr and focus on reuniclus for a while. Let´s also assume you wait with reuniclus until stuff like hydreigon, scizor and tyranitar are down. Then you come in, calm mind and sweep, how is this any different from what you are trying to achieve with Conk?

Let´s assume you save a sniper kingdra until chansey/Blissey are gone. Then you come in, focus energy and destroy everything in its path. How is it any different? 

This same argument can be used on too many pokemons in the tier. IF what you say is true, if people can indeed switch against everything people throw vs Conkeldurr, then this should be a discussion about those things and not about Conk itself.

you just said yourself, Conk usually waits 1 or max 2 down before winning the game. Answers are extremely limited.

And both mons you mentioned strictly requires setup turns to function. that's how it's different. There are many other mons that require setup and can reach Conkeldurr's level of power, while Conkeldurr has directly access to power and in many cases it can setup for more.

 

11 minutes ago, pachima said:

Also, you seem to be assuming people can´t run more than 1 check for Conkeldurr, which also doesnt make sense. If you take the 39 Mons out of OU, and choose 6 completely random, odds are you have at least 2 of them that beat easily Conkeldurr. 

Nope. Doesn't happen... lol

 

 

[PrincessDia]

9 minutes ago, pachima said:

1/3rd of the tier beats conkeldurr 1v1 (With reliable sets)

By 1v1 I mean none are switching against each other.

That's not how it works in realistic scenarios, idk how many times you find yourself in a situation where you don't have to switch into a Conkeldurr and a Conkeldurr barely finds opportunity to switch in?

[MosesBrenner]

"can reach conkeldurrs level"..? scizor with SD, excadrill with SD in sand,kabutops with SD in rain.... laugh about conkeldurrs dmg output.

[PrincessDia]

6 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

"can reach conkeldurrs level"..? scizor with SD, excadrill with SD in sand,kabutops with SD in rain.... laugh about conkeldurrs dmg output.

I'll just assume you are intelligent enough to understand what I was referring to there and you are just trying to provoke me again.

[RysPicz]

10 hours ago, gbwead said:

If Conkeldurr fits offensive uber characteristics, it would have no counters and, since Cofagrigus does counter it, it can't be banned for that reason.

Sorry Gb, but I just can't agree with this. Fitting offensive uber characteristics does not mean that a pokemon has no counters- see my Rhydon and Breloom example. Breloom was a counter, yet Rhydon got banned back then as an offensive uber. Why? Because you were forced to run a certain pokemon to block the biggest threat in the metagame that otherwise would destroy your entire team. How would Cofag's usage look without Conk? I'm pretty sure we would see it at maybe 1% because people bred it, prepared for OU and would feel stupid if they wouldn't have a reason to use it.

 

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

This is the definition of an offensive uber and Conkeldurr fits it perfectly.

[Impulse5095]

3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Sorry Gb, but I just can't agree with this. Fitting offensive uber characteristics does not mean that a pokemon has no counters- see my Rhydon and Breloom example. Breloom was a counter, yet Rhydon got banned back then as an offensive uber. Why? Because you were forced to run a certain pokemon to block the biggest threat in the metagame that otherwise would destroy your entire team. How would Cofag's usage look without Conk? I'm pretty sure we would see it at maybe 1% because people bred it, prepared for OU and would feel stupid if they wouldn't have a reason to use it.

 

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

This is the definition of an offensive uber and Conkeldurr fits it perfectly.

How would the tier look without Conkeldurr at all? You can’t just pinpoint one Pokémon usage going down drastically and not look at the ones that Conkeldurr holds in check from skyrocketing. That is why you can’t use the config usage going down as a reason to ban Conkeldurr.

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Impulse5095 said:

How would the tier look without Conkeldurr at all? You can’t just pinpoint one Pokémon usage going down drastically and not look at the ones that Conkeldurr holds in check from skyrocketing. That is why you can’t use the config usage going down as a reason to ban Conkeldurr.

You missed the point. Cofag was brought from UU exclusively as a Conk counter. An otherwise unviable pokemon comes up to check a menace. Same example with my impish Breloom. Read the post carefully.

 

The fact that Conk is able to beat the shit out of other OU pokemons is actually the reason we are discussing it... ?

[MosesBrenner]

But conkeldurr cannot destroy your whole team if you got a "healthy set"

[Suneet]

3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

You missed the point. Cofag was brought from UU exclusively as a Conk counter.

1 hour ago, pachima said:

Cofagrigus helps a lot against conkeldurr, mienshao, scizor,metagross, lucario, snorlax.  It can haze top used set up mons like salamence, and it can also toxic spikes. Saying cofagrigus is seeing light of day just because Conkeldurr is kinda untrue at this point.

 

[PrincessDia]

6 minutes ago, Impulse5095 said:

How would the tier look without Conkeldurr at all? You can’t just pinpoint one Pokémon usage going down drastically and not look at the ones that Conkeldurr holds in check from skyrocketing. That is why you can’t use the config usage going down as a reason to ban Conkeldurr.

 

[PrincessDia]

Seriously guys, how can you assume something with so many weaknesses is good at toxic spiking and can survive to be useful to counter to a mon that reveals himself when an opportunity is given.

Can we please put on paper scenarios aside and start discussing realistic scenarios?

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by PrincessDia
corrections

[Impulse5095]

1 minute ago, PrincessDia said:

 

That’s my point. You can’t say what will happen to configurs usage in ou because of banning conk just like you can’t say what will happen to other Pokémon’s usage if Conkeldurr gets banned.

1 minute ago, Munya said:

Because it was an unobtainable move under normal circumstances, only one person ever had it.

Ok and now it is an obtainable move under normal circumstances and I still can’t get it on hydregion....so what is holding it back?

[PrincessDia]

Just now, Impulse5095 said:

That’s my point. You can’t say what will happen to configurs usage in ou because of banning conk just like you can’t say what will happen to other Pokémon’s usage if Conkeldurr gets banned.

I know, just trying to remind that "what will happen after" is out of scope for this discussion.

[gbwead]

34 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Sorry Gb, but I just can't agree with this. Fitting offensive uber characteristics does not mean that a pokemon has no counters- see my Rhydon and Breloom example. Breloom was a counter, yet Rhydon got banned back then as an offensive uber. Why? Because you were forced to run a certain pokemon to block the biggest threat in the metagame that otherwise would destroy your entire team. How would Cofag's usage look without Conk? I'm pretty sure we would see it at maybe 1% because people bred it, prepared for OU and would feel stupid if they wouldn't have a reason to use it.

 

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

This is the definition of an offensive uber and Conkeldurr fits it perfectly.

Rhydon had access to Ice Punch and Megahorn that both beat Breloom iirc. Even thought Breloom was the best switch, it wasn't a true counter.

[RysPicz]

14 minutes ago, Suneet said:

 

18 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

You missed the point. Cofag was brought from UU exclusively as a Conk counter.

1 hour ago, pachima said:

Cofagrigus helps a lot against conkeldurr, mienshao, scizor,metagross, lucario, snorlax.  It can haze top used set up mons like salamence, and it can also toxic spikes. Saying cofagrigus is seeing light of day just because Conkeldurr is kinda untrue at this point.

Impish Breloom was also countering Donphan that was on top of usage back then, same goes for Scizor and Armaldo back then. The fact that it can counter a Snorlax which I never saw in a tournament (only unranked) is irrelevant, it barely counters SD Lucario (actually sacrifices itself to stop it:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 117-140 (70.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Haze means it dies to second non-boosted Crunch, Wisp means it dies to second +2 burned Crunch, Split means it dies, whatever it will do, it dies)

Nasty plot outright destroys it:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 231-273 (140 - 165.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So I don't see how it counters Lucario.

 

Mienshao and Scizor are momentum gainers that just u-turn constantly and I don't see how exactly Cofag can stop them from doing what they're meant to do. It's a switch-in that doesn't take much damage and can beat them 1v1 (unless it's some SD Scizor with weird coverage) but in standard battle conditions, Cofag eats u-turn and then it faces a Hydrei, TTar, Gengar or a Dragon which is going to drop a Draco Meteor on it's head.

 

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Rhydon had access to Ice Punch and Megahorn that both beat Breloom iirc. Even thought Breloom was the best switch, it wasn't a true counter.

My bad, I didn't specify that- the biggest problem back then was a sub SD Rhydon with it's Dualstab. This was the most dangerous and most powerful set. Breloom was countering it with Bullet Weed.

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

My bad, I didn't specify that- the biggest problem back then was a sub SD Rhydon with it's Dualstab. This was the most dangerous and most powerful set. Breloom was countering it with Bullet Weed.

CB Rhydon was imo still a big threat, but I understand what you're saying. As for Bullet Seed Breloom, I don't think that was a thing because because Bullet Seed was at 10bp until few days prior to the ban. Iirc, the 2016 UU seasonal was at the end of August and that was the day where Bullet Seed went to 25 bp and Rhydon got banned in September.

For me being forced to run a specific counter like Cofagrigus is centralization, it doesn't make Conkeldurr necessarily uber.

[gbwead]

37 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

I know, just trying to remind that "what will happen after" is out of scope for this discussion.

In that case, you need to stop calling Conkeldurr unhealthy because the Conkeldurr meta can only be unhealthy in comparison to the Conkeldurr less meta. All talk about unhealthiness should be out of scope for this discussion; it's too early for that.

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, Mnemosyne said:

Everyone who wants conkeldurr banned are just people that playing 6 walls with ferro and blissey and then complain about conkel cuz it shits on it.

Not really, stall players are used to conkeldurr at this point and Cofagrigus fits probably more with their playstyle than balance or offense.

[suigin]

OK time for my personal take.

Quote

If you ban conk stall will be viable!!! Ur just a staller who wants to run 6 walls!!!!

I'm not stall expert, but it takes two brain cells to become a stall expert so I'm pretty damn sure any stall team worth its salt would immediately run Cofagrigus + some other conk check in order to keep Conkeldurr at bay. I already mentioned it in the OP but a good defensive core can keep Conkeldurr from becoming a big issue, and what runs defensive cores more than stall?

I saw people say that running a core to deal with a mon is unhealthy and I disagree, that's how a lot of archetypes tend to deal with certain mons, otherwise you're always forced to run balance/stall/bulky shit.

Stall is unviable as a playstyle not because of Conk but because of other stallbreakers and general threats that force stall to run genuinely bad stuff in order to even survive the matchup against it.

Quote

Cofagrigus is lower tier!!! That means it's not healthy for it to be forced up for conk!!!

I disagree, and anyone who has ever interacted with me may find my personal aspect of calling a lot of stuff from lower tiers that gets used in OU "worthless trash that gets used by baddies" a bit repulsive. But in this case I genuinely believe Cofagrigus is an OU worthy Pokemon, it's annoying enough to remain OU even without Conk around, and it has enough advantages for PokeMMO players to stick to it well after Conk hypothetically leaves. If Weezing, a Pokemon that did absolutely fucking nothing in the tier got to be OU for like 3 months, then there's no reason why Cofa can't.

Cofa is good, removing abilities is good, removing items with Knock Off is good, spinblocking is good in some matchups, its biggest downside is being a free switch for Hydreigon and its general passiveness but that hasn't stopped a lot of other mons.

Quote

Cofa gets pursuit trapped

True, no ghost likes being pursuit trapped, but like every bulky Ghost in the game, the Pursuit game is a huge 50/50 that may result on a burnt Tyranitar essentially doing very little for the rest of the game. I say Tyranitar because it's the strongest Pursuit trapper, that Scizor ain't doing shit.

Quote

Conkeldurr becomes too hard to stop after its checks get lured out and weakened/removed!

Perhaps the same could be said of all Pokemon.

Quote

You have to run this very specific set up or your team is worthless

Also wrong. I've seen a lot of accomplished players running unconventional mons, archetypes and sets and doing fine.

 

Personally I had been hyping up Conk since before the Unova release, I remember telling Senile "Hey Conk will be ridiculous" assuming we were getting Flame Orb on the Unova patch release. We did not, and I still saw Conk become the best Pokemon in the tier just by running leftovers, at this point I genuinely believed it'd be banworthy the moment Flame Orb and Sheer Force became available. Fast forward a couple years and all I'm seeing is a similar case to Cloyster, who I also overhyped, a Pokemon that sure, deals a lot of damage, but is very susceptible to chip damage, has barely any set up options and at the end of the day can still be walled by the right Pokemon assuming it doesn't have the right coverage move for it.

 

I do not think it gets "easy sweeps" but it does really limit teambuilding and is pretty hard to abuse back. It may not have many set up options but it does get the immediate damage to stop or really limit most other set up from other mons, it's pretty hard to revenge kill either due to Mach Punch or since its bulk allows it to live a hit and then heal back up a bit and then it's back to square one with one Pokemon less for the one on the receiving end though.

[Gunthug]

Rotom-A when?

[PrincessDia]

5 hours ago, suigin said:

OK time for my personal take.

I agree with majority of what you said.

 

5 hours ago, suigin said:

Perhaps the same could be said of all Pokemon.

I don't see this being the same case with Conkeldurr. Many other mons require at least a turn of setup and at least some sort of prior damage on some targets even after their checks/counters are removed in order to sweep. Conkeldurr just finds an opportunity to switch in and people keep assuming this is very hard on an environment without team preview, then just cripple/ko as many mons as it can. Honestly if Conekldurr side screws up I don't think anything allows Conkeldurr to switch-in can cause significant harm to it, idk why people keep assuming in PokeMMO battles Conkeldurr is instantly crippled by many sources and have very limited turns to wreak havoc. Some arguments even treat it as if it's a Glass Cannon...

 

5 hours ago, suigin said:

Also wrong. I've seen a lot of accomplished players running unconventional mons, archetypes and sets and doing fine.

I'm proudly one of these players and many people knew me pre-unova knows that I ran mons from lower tiers exclusively. But from R/S/E to B/W mons there is an undeniable power creep I'm pretty positive that everyone would agree, I can't do anything similar in serious battles/rankeds anymore. And when I look at gen5 tiers I can see many mons that were considered strong in their days, sank deep within tiers because of harsh conditions of B/W battles, Conkeldurr was one of those who failed to utilize those battle conditions and they actually worked against it, yet it had such a powerful impact that regardless of it's disadvantages it had protected it's position in OU. We don't have battle conditions as harsh as actaul B/W battles, but we still have Hydreigons, Reunicluses, Conkeldurrs flying around freely in OU almost every battle. The level of power they offer render a large majority of lower tiers and probably even a few of those in OU tier, quite obsolete. 

 

6 hours ago, suigin said:

I do not think it gets "easy sweeps" but it does really limit teambuilding and is pretty hard to abuse back. It may not have many set up options but it does get the immediate damage to stop or really limit most other set up from other mons, it's pretty hard to revenge kill either due to Mach Punch or since its bulk allows it to live a hit and then heal back up a bit and then it's back to square one with one Pokemon less for the one on the receiving end though.

I believe we can agree that majority of the time it will pull more than it's own weight without much effort going into it though.

This is a personal opinion that shouldn't be taken as an argument but; I also believe someone who has no idea about how battles work or anything can copy paste a random team from a friend with a Guts Conkeldurr in it, and still be considerably threatening to people somewhat above his/her skill level.

[PeterParquet]

10 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Sorry Gb, but I just can't agree with this. Fitting offensive uber characteristics does not mean that a pokemon has no counters- see my Rhydon and Breloom example. Breloom was a counter, yet Rhydon got banned back then as an offensive uber. Why? Because you were forced to run a certain pokemon to block the biggest threat in the metagame that otherwise would destroy your entire team. How would Cofag's usage look without Conk? I'm pretty sure we would see it at maybe 1% because people bred it, prepared for OU and would feel stupid if they wouldn't have a reason to use it.

 

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

This is the definition of an offensive uber and Conkeldurr fits it perfectly.

Hello? R u talking about scizor? 

 

- Can scizor sweep a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort? Yes.

 

-  Is people running certains mons(chandelure, magnezone) as the way to always have a good way to answer scizor? Yes.

 

. Is scizor more % times played than Conk? Yes.

 

Then why is people crying a lot about Conk when scizor can do the same?

 

Now, no jokes, Im running a very offensive team (reuniclus is the "Waller mon" on my team with 252 atksp) and I never had troubles with conk. First, I dont have walls like Blisseymory, so when he wants to come in he usually takes a hit, after that, everything instead reuniclus(who can take a hit and kill him after) is faster than him, so I usually kill him easily.

 

In other hand, If u r trying to stall with things like blissey, dont cry if they go with conk and u losse the momentum, Conk is blissey natural predator, do a better prediction next time, or take the payback.

 

Sorry for bad english, im doing by best but im spanish and Im using my high school lessons.

[RysPicz]

4 minutes ago, PeterParquet said:

Hello? R u talking about scizor? 

 

- Can scizor sweep a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort? Yes.

 

-  Is people running certains mons(chandelure, magnezone) as the way to always have a good way to answer scizor? Yes.

 

. Is scizor more % times played than Conk? Yes.

 

Then why is people crying a lot about Conk when scizor can do the same?

 

Now, no jokes, Im running a very offensive team (reuniclus is the "Waller mon" on my team with 252 atksp) and I never had troubles with conk. First, I dont have walls like Blisseymory, so when he wants to come in he usually takes a hit, after that, everything instead reuniclus(who can take a hit and kill him after) is faster than him, so I usually kill him easily.

 

In other hand, If u r trying to stall with things like blissey, dont cry if they go with conk and u losse the momentum, Conk is blissey natural predator, do a better prediction next time, or take the payback.

 

Sorry for bad english, im doing by best but im spanish and Im using my high school lessons.

Wait, are you seriously comparing Conk and Scizor? May I ask for how long do you play competitively in this game?

 

Also, I'll repeat myself- I am an offensive player myself, I rarely play walls and I do not have problems with Conk. I run Conk myself and I speak here from my own experience (and perspective) of using it. Stop claiming that I'm stalling with Blissey when I don't even have that pokemon in my box.

[Meh]

7 minutes ago, PeterParquet said:

Then why is people crying a lot about Conk when scizor can do the same?

ehh...4x weakness against fire...?

[PeterParquet]

So who isnt here talking about his own perspective? is that even possible?

 

 

Scizor x4 weakness and THE ONLY ONE WEAKNESS, Conk atleast have 2 weakness.

 

The comparison with Scizor was on sarcastic mode whatever, thats why i said "no jokes" after that, Scizor is more wallable than conk, I know it.

 

But the point is, Conk is not that overpowered as people is trying to show it, at the end of the day he must choice a coverage move, and u have a 50/50 of do a good swap, after that they can predict.

 

For example, u can play hippo(standard physic wall which a lot of people runs) he do drain punch, np for hippo, ice punch(u know the coverage move and can play around it) bulk up? thats probably the worst cause u cant know the coverage move, but u can roar him out, and conk is taking dmg from flame and sandstorm.

 

I can write a lot of situations where conk is not problematic at all, ofc if u have wasted some mons, the others arent full and you r in a lategame scenario where conk is full health, thats a big problem, but thats not about conk, a lot of sweepers can do the same.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 178-210 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after burn damage

Possible damage amounts: (178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196, 198, 200, 202, 204, 206, 210)

 

Scizor, Tentacruel, Gengar, Starmie, Gyarados/Salamence, Pelipper/Gliscor, Metagross, Kingdra(rain), volcarona, Mienshao(fake out), Reuniclus, chandelure and togekiss.

 

13(literaly 33%) mons of 39 can 1v1 conk, I cant see where is hard to build a team against him.

Edited August 29, 2018 by PeterParquet
dont want to double post