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[OU Discussion] Conkeldurr


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So it begins.

With a scary 140 base attack stat, solid bulk and access to a move pool which allows it to get past most of its checks, Conkeldurr has proven itself to be a massive threat in the OU tier in the past few months. But access to the new items and abilities seem to have pushed it a bit over the edge.

 

While Leftovers is one of its most common items of choice, its amazing ability in Guts allows it to utilize a Flame Orb to instantly reach a whopping 316 attack after switching in once, Drain Punch helps it keep itself healthy while dealing serious damage against anything that takes a neutral hit, Mach Punch will let it hit first against opponents lacking priority thus somewhat alleviating its terrible speed and Bulk Up allows it to boost its already impressive damage and solid physical bulk to greater extents thus making it harder for physical attackers and faster frail Pokemon to revenge kill it.

 

After this comes the issue of coverage, Thunder Punch being its most commonly used coverage move allows it to get the safest coverage against most things, Ice Punch is an alternative to this, allowing it to deal better with Dragon types and Gliscor, Stone Edge/Rock Slide are also great moves which allow it to hit Volcarona, Chandelure and everything in the air for massive damage, albeit their unreliable accuracy can fail the user at the worst moment, Payback has been a favorite for dealing with Reuniclus and now its newest check in Cofagrigus, dealing decent damage to either of them. Facade is a new, more effective way of dealing with Reuniclus albeit it leaves Conkeldurr open to any Ghost types that may wanna come in unless it forsakes the use of Bulk Up for an extra coverage move.

 

Let it be known that while I've been referring to the Guts Bulk Up set all this time, the Sheer Force set is no joke either, allowing it to boost the damage from its elemental punches to near obscene levels without suffering the drawbacks that come from carrying a Life Orb and having perfectly unresisted coverage with Electric/Ice/Fighting moves.

 

As for its drawbacks:

Flame Orb makes it susceptible to hazard damage racking up, limiting its switch ins and set up options if Drain Punch doesn't heal it back enough as well as making it easier for it to get revenge killed.

While it has a lot of coverage options, its limited amount of move slots mean a well prepared core can make Conk into a minor factor once its coverage is revealed.

Many rain abusers (Barring Kabutops and Ferrothorn) make it really hard for it to make a significant impact at all.

Its slow speed is a hindering factor in most matchups.

 

We would like the community's input on whether Conkeldurr fits the criteria to be considered offensively Uber, that is:

Quote

A Pokémon is offensively uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

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Conkeldurr is really scared.But I think that there are some counter yet.

The first one is cofagrigus mummy with hex.


 

4 SpA Cofagrigus Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 102-120 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
+1 0+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 52-62 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
reniclus bold is also good for that

 

0 SpA Reuniclus Psychic vs. 100 HP / 132 SpD Conkeldurr: 146-174 (75.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 65-77 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
the probleme is that both have the same gosht and dark weaknesses
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Just now, MknsZblex said:

Conkeldurr is really scared.But I think that there are some counter yet.

The first one is cofagrigus mummy with hex.


 

4 SpA Cofagrigus Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 102-120 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
+1 0+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 52-62 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
reniclus bold is also good for that

 

0 SpA Reuniclus Psychic vs. 100 HP / 132 SpD Conkeldurr: 146-174 (75.6 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 65-77 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
the probleme is that both have the same gosht and dark weaknesses

Was about to post pretty similar calcs, from my own playing of the tier, I do not believe that it is banworthy, more to follow possibly tomorrow morning

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I was worried if I had to write all my previous points here but a large majority of it was covered by suigin on OP.

I've been familiar with competitive Pokemon for a long time (since R/S/E) but I was not very familiar with the terminology. I had a personal definition for what is fit for Uber;

  • If you can't define a way to overcome a Pokemon's power/utility with moves, strategies or roles.
  • You can only name very few Pokemon in OU to overcome it.
  • If it's not dealt with it has a battle deciding impact.

Conkeldurr is exactly that. That was my original reason to start a debate about if it's banworthy or not.

 

Lately, I've seen more people abuse it on every skill level to a point of running two Fighting-type mons to first check out what opponent would do to check/counter a fighting mon then use a Conkeldurr to finish the job reducing effort on predicting to a very minimal amount. Or running 5 physical sweeper mons like Gyarados, Scizor, Mamoswine, etc. along with Conkeldurr, knowing Conkeldurr will heavily cripple or destroy your answers to a physical attacker and remaining team will happily finish the job. I noticed this is getting to a troublesome point in the tier.

 

Another thing is, Conkeldurr's presence in tier renders multiple playstyles completely unusable effectively. I'm not a big fan of stall teams but apparently, they are the ones suffering from it the most. There have been many mon names presented in OU discussion thread as an answer to Conkeldurr but the issue is (even though I also like we don't have a team preview lol) its power is abused with certain compositions because we do not have a team preview. It's not about checking or countering anymore.

 

Overall, I believe such power and pressure within our OU standards, is completely overwhelming at this point and it should have an express ticket to Ubers.

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44 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

I'm not a big fan of stall teams but apparently, they are the ones suffering from it the most.

That's a positive thing in my eyes. 

Jokes aside tho, Conkel would be a lot more healthy if we had hidden abilities(i.e amonguss/tangrowth/slowbro regenerator) and some legendaries like mew/celebi/latios/zapdos I guess, but in our current meta, he's just way to dominant, not to mention he can now trade cover for facade and when you find out he has facade, it's already to late for reuniclus most likely, not saying it's optimal, but I've seen a lot in rankeds for this exact thing.

Edited by razimove
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3 minutes ago, RedDragonERa said:

If we know the moveset of conkledurr we can wall it off 

For example : if conkledurr don't have ice punch,  gliscor can wall .

That's a luxury only enjoyed by people sitting in the back spectating. By the time you've found the moveset, maybe 2 Pokemon are dead (or effectively crippled). 4 move syndrome isn't as big of an issue with conk anyway, in that he only has to click buttons, and the responsibility is on the opponent to try find something that won't get smashed by a coverage move.

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2 minutes ago, RedDragonERa said:

If we know the moveset of conkledurr we can wall it off 

For example : if conkledurr don't have ice punch,  gliscor can wall .

Owner of Conkeldurr chooses its moveset, we can't carry a Gliscor and assume they will not run Ice Punch or carry a Reuniclus and assume it won't run Facade. Forcing people into carrying 2-3 specific mons that can handle different Conkeldurr movesets is not healthy. Also sacrificing a few mons to learn about its movesets so you can deal with it, what about its other 5 teammates once you deal with Conkeldurr?

Don't really take Conkeldurr into account as a single entity, that's not how battles go and I'm sure everyone knows it well. It's usually accompanied by a team abusing it's power, including but not limited to, another fighting type to scout what your check/counter is, a trick room mon to allow it to proceed to sweep, etc.

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3 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

Owner of Conkeldurr chooses its moveset, we can't carry a Gliscor and assume they will not run Ice Punch or carry a Reuniclus and assume it won't run Facade. Forcing people into carrying 2-3 specific mons that can handle different Conkeldurr movesets is not healthy.

What about Cofagrigus?

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Why u all thinking about walling conkledurr? 

If we  can't wall just sweep 

Volcarano learns psychic

Chandlure learns psychic 

Pokkes from lower tiers like espeon, alakazam can check. 

Metagross can somewhat do with Zen headbutt or psychic. 

Edited by RedDragonERa
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5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What about Cofagrigus?

I like Cofagrigus, tbh of all the "checks" people throw out, I think the realest one is big ghost himself. If hazards and status weren't applied he does his job great. Still feels like conk is really hard to stop once he gets going, also relying on him and maybe Reuni are rather limiting for a tier with like 25+ mons.

 

3 minutes ago, RedDragonERa said:

Why u all thinking about walling conkledurr? 

If we  can't wall just sweep 

Volcarano learns psychic

Chandlure learns psychic 

Pokkes from lower tiers like espeon, alakazam can check. 

Metagross cannot somewhat do with Zen headbutt or psychic. 

I mean with this logic, Rayquayza is fine since Weavile and Mamoswine have ice shard that can check easily. The problem lies in that since "nearly" no nice switchins exist Conk always trades above his weight in mons.

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51 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What about Cofagrigus?

We discussed it in OU tier thread, it is a hard counter to every set of Conkeldurr and the only surefire way to stop it, it also functions well at some other things in OU. But it has too many weaknesses, gets pursuit trapped and stuff, so it's not that much of use in OU standards if you encounter a Conkeldurr-less team. If bringing a UU mon is the only surefire way to not lose to a certain mon, don't you think its pressure is a bit above the bar?

 

Assume you have a Chansey out or something special wally, if opponent switches into Machamp, wouldn't you be tempted to send your Cofagrigus in? That's how it's being abused right now with 2 fighting mon setups. Now Conkeldurr owner knows what's waiting for it, and patiently disposes of it or keeps Conkeldurr on hold until last minute knowing game-breaking potential of Conkeldurr. In realistic scenarios, it might be quite difficult to handle Cofagrigus with such a team, but for other Conkeldurr answers, it gets much easier.

 

That's why I said, checks and counters are not even mattered much at this point. If you would try this with any other mon your team would be too unbalanced and have many weaknesses but the current power of Conkeldurr and lack of team preview allows it.

Edited by PrincessDia
Spelling / Grammar
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32 minutes ago, RedDragonERa said:

If we know the moveset of conkledurr we can wall it off 

For example : if conkledurr don't have ice punch,  gliscor can wall .

Unfortunately this goes both ways. If you know your opponent runs Gliscor, you put Ice Punch on it.

 

The only reliable counter I see is Cofagrigus and it's actually seeing some usage, because of Conk (and possibly Shao). It's reminding me of the time when people started using an Impish Breloom against a Rhydon in very old UU- a specific pokemon which otherwise has very little use, brought to counter a menace.

 

Doesn't sound right. I'm speaking here more from experience as Conk user- I adore pokemons with sky high attack (Rampardos when?) and I love hitting so hard that even resisted hits can kill. But with Conk it's just too easy- I can actually keep switching my moves with it, as I'm not locked into choice, while still having a monstrual attacking stat paired with a STAB priority and status immunity. Conk struggles against offense (especially special-oriented) but our metagame has no offense that original B/W had. @Senile has explained it really well in the OU discussion thread and I wouldn't want to repeat his words or steal credit for his arguments.

 

 

Edited by RysPicz
I embarris.
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252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Nincada: 54-65 (20.3 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Nincada: 73-87 (27.4 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Solid switch in c:

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 88-104 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 34.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 118-139 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

For real though I feel like Ice Punch is very rare to see on a Conkeldurr, maybe it will see more use now we have flying gem Gliscor. But if you're running Ice you're most likely not running Thunder Punch so Gyarados becomes harder to take out especially paired with the intimidate drop. No one Conkeldurr moveset can take out every switch in which is what is the difference between it becoming Offensive uber over S tier in OU

 

E. I just realised I posted legit Gliscor calcs when I was gonna meme with Golbat calcs

0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 224-266 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 35-41 (9.9 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO

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20 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

We discussed it in OU tier thread, it is a hard counter to every set of Conkeldurr and the only surefire way to stop it, it also functions well at some other things in OU. But it has too many weaknesses, gets pursuit trapped and stuff, so it's not that much of use in OU standards if you encounter a Conkeldurr-less team. If bringing a UU mon is the only surefire way to not lose to a certain mon, don't you think its pressure is a bit above the bar?

 

Assume you have a Chansey out or something special wally, if opponent switches into Machamp, wouldn't you be tempted to send your Cofagrigus in? Without team preview that's how it's being abused right now with 2 fighting mon setups. Now Conkeldurr owner knows what's waiting for it, and patiently disposes of it or keeps Conkeldurr on hold until last minute knowing game-breaking potential of Conkeldurr. In realistic scenarios, it might be quite difficult to handle Cofagrigus with such a team, but for other Conkeldurr answers, it gets much easier.

 

That's why I said, checks and counters are not even mattered much at this point. If you would try this with any other mon your team would be too unbalanced and have many weaknesses but the current power of Conkeldurr and lack of team preview allows it.

22 minutes ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

I like Cofagrigus, tbh of all the "checks" people throw out, I think the realest one is big ghost himself. If hazards and status weren't applied he does his job great. Still feels like conk is really hard to stop once he gets going, also relying on him and maybe Reuni are rather limiting for a tier with like 25+ mons.

If Conkeldurr fits offensive uber characteristics, it would have no counters and, since Cofagrigus does counter it, it can't be banned for that reason.

If Cofagrigus is the only Conkeldurr counter and is unviable in OU, that means Conkeldurr is probably unhealthy and therefore needs to be test banned. However, a test ban doesn't necessarily leads to a permanent ban. In all cases, I think it's important to remember that the latest update was less than a month ago, so any talk about Conkeldurr being unhealthy or centralizing is extremely premature at this point.

 

Imo, this thread should focus on discussing how to check and counter Conkeldurr. It's too early to call Conkeldurr potential checks and counters, unviable; we haven't even taken the time to figure out what these were yet.

 

We might not be able to find a pokemon that can handle Conkeldurr on its own, but that doesn't mean we can't find a solid core that would stop this threat. For instance, in the old UU meta, once Houndoom got banned, most people thought Exeggutor needed to get banned as well asap; depending on it's moveset, it was capable of breaking through any threat except for Wish Hypno that was deemed unviable. Then, we started to see Altaria/Scizor cores and few months later Exeggutor was just no longer suspected to be banworthy, just a strong UU threat. 

 

 

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I think this proofs are enough to ban conkledurr. 

But please don't ban conkledurr coz we already encountered this kind situation in gen 3 meta having all dragons and blobs in uber. 

We are better off to ban conkledurr + mach punch or conkledurr + flame orb.

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18 minutes ago, Kizhaz said:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Nincada: 54-65 (20.3 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Nincada: 73-87 (27.4 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Solid switch in c:

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 88-104 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 34.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 118-139 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

For real though I feel like Ice Punch is very rare to see on a Conkeldurr, maybe it will see more use now we have flying gem Gliscor. But if you're running Ice you're most likely not running Thunder Punch so Gyarados becomes harder to take out especially paired with the intimidate drop. No one Conkeldurr moveset can take out every switch in which is what is the difference between it becoming Offensive uber over S tier in OU

Gyarados loses Bulk Up/Dragon Dance fest even with Intimidate and Conkeldurr gets out of it with decent hp remaining along with a +stat. Its raw stats allow it to deal with Gyarados without many problems.

 

17 minutes ago, gbwead said:

If Conkeldurr fits offensive uber characteristics, it would have no counters and, since Cofagrigus does counter it, it can't be banned for that reason.

If Cofagrigus is the only Conkeldurr counter and is unviable in OU, that means Conkeldurr is probably unhealthy and therefore needs to be test banned. However, a test ban doesn't necessarily leads to a permanent ban. In all cases, I think it's important to remember that the latest update was less than a month ago, so any talk about Conkeldurr being unhealthy or centralizing is extremely premature at this point.

 

Imo, this thread should focus on discussing how to check and counter Conkeldurr. It's too early to call Conkeldurr potential checks and counters, unviable; we haven't even taken the time to figure out what these were yet.

 

We might not be able to find a pokemon that can handle Conkeldurr on its own, but that doesn't mean we can't find a solid core that would stop this threat. For instance, in the old UU meta, once Houndoom got banned, most people thought Exeggutor needed to get banned as well asap; depending on it's moveset, it was capable of breaking through any threat except for Wish Hypno that was deemed unviable. Then, we started to see Altaria/Scizor cores and few months later Exeggutor was just no longer suspected to be banworthy, just a strong UU threat. 

 

 

Seriously though, we have discussed many counter/checks at OU tier thread and I really really do not understand what counters or checks have to do with its current situation. Pretty please explain, I want to learn why we are always considering 1v1 situations and forcing it to switch out as if it has been dealt with.

You can't keep your Conkeldurr-answering mon in-game because if it's down your chances of winning is nearly non-existent vs something that can EASILY clear multiple mons before going down, so you gotta switch out the Conkeldurr-check as well and fight the rest of the 5v5 while being forced to avoid Conkeldurr-friendly mons and moves because only Cofagrigus being exception, most of the mons that were offered as Conkeldurr counter will take considerable damage every time this repeats and to bring in your check you gotta lose yet another mon. 

 

Conkeldurr will stay intact to repeat the cycle and opposing team will be forced to fight an unfair 5v5. Conkeldurr himself rarely takes more damage than it recovers in the process while a very minimal amount of counters offered have some sort of self recovery, and those that have the recovery, have to use a turn to recover back what Conkeldurr did to them, effectively negating the momentum gained by forcing Conkeldurr out. If Conkeldurr is down, it's 1 mon down, if Conkeldurr check/counter is down, it's game over, how is this okay?

 

Please, I'm either not experienced enough to understand what's going on here or you are missing to consider some things here...

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37 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

You can't keep your Conkeldurr-answering mon in-game because if it's down your chances of winning is nearly non-existent vs something that can EASILY clear multiple mons before going down, so you gotta switch out the Conkeldurr-check as well and fight the rest of the 5v5 while being forced to avoid Conkeldurr-friendly mons and moves because only Cofagrigus being exception, most of the mons that were offered as Conkeldurr counter will take considerable damage every time this repeats and to bring in your check you gotta lose yet another mon. 

The same thing could be said about so many threats. If you lose your Azumarill check/counters in UU, you will likely get swept, but that doesn't make Azumarill banworthy. It only means you need to keep in mind that you need specific checks and counter healthy in order to win against Conkeldur, Azumarill, Mamoswine, Lucario, etc.

Edited by gbwead
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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

The same thing could be said about so many threats. If you lose your Azumarill check/counters in UU, you will likely get swept, but that doesn't make Azumarill banworthy. It only means you need to keep in mind that you need specific checks and counter healthy in order to win against Conkeldur/Azumarill/Mamoswine/Lucario.

But does Azumarill have the recovery to repeat this infinitely and the same amount of switch in potentials without getting crippled like status moves, the majority of physical damage dealers? Does it limit the rest of the 5v5 gameplay as much as Conkeldurr do?

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1 hour ago, RedDragonERa said:

I think this proofs are enough to ban conkledurr. 

But please don't ban conkledurr coz we already encountered this kind situation in gen 3 meta having all dragons and blobs in uber. 

We are better off to ban conkledurr + mach punch or conkledurr + flame orb.

sheerforce its harder to check than guts imo.

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3 minutes ago, foyone said:

sheerforce its harder to check than guts imo.

It doesn't give freedom to switch-in vs a lot of things in our current metagame tho, Senile explained many reasons there as well. That's one of the many issues with Conkeldurr right now, it would cause Conkeldurr to cause a little less pressure to 5v5 play outside of Conkeldurr and Conkeldurr checking/countering mon. If we had the offensive power of actual BW metagame Conkeldurr would have much fewer opportunities to switch in and wouldn't survive through battle enough to continue it's threatening cycle and cause more pressure than any other heavy sweeper that doesn't require any setup to function.

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2 minutes ago, PrincessDia said:

But does Azumarill have the recovery to repeat this infinitely and the same amount of switch in potentials without getting crippled like status moves, the majority of physical damage dealers? Does it limit the rest of the 5v5 gameplay as much as Conkeldurr do?

Against Cofagrigus, Conkeldurr doesn't have recovery and status moves are crippling, so I don't see your point there. Conkeldurr doesn't have infinite recovery, only Drain Punch. It has a decent amount of switch-ins I suppose, but nothing out of the ordinary either. As for limiting gameplay, it's too much early to tell if that is the case.

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13 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Against Cofagrigus, Conkeldurr doesn't have recovery and status moves are crippling, so I don't see your point there. Conkeldurr doesn't have infinite recovery, only Drain Punch. It has a decent amount of switch-ins I suppose, but nothing out of the ordinary either. As for limiting gameplay, it's too much early to tell if that is the case.

Every non-ghost on OU tier, recovers Conkeldurr more than it suffers when it randomly flings a Drain Punch without giving it a thought. Calculations are in OU discussion thread if you are curious. When you switch a ghost on it, congratulations you have dealt 6% chip damage on it. Next time around expect a Thunderpunch on the face for approx 75% damage, calculations are again on OU discussion thread. If you decide to not switch a ghost, again almost every non-ground type takes enough damage to fall to a following mach punch. You have to make zibillions of predictions while Conkeldurr owner just clicks buttons knowing something will get hurt a lot.

Also, guess what? I've been in MM and ranked this whole night and everywhere is disgustingly populated with either Conkeldurr based teams or poor Cofagriguses that go down without doing much and being a hinderance... I've seen only 2 exceptions if I remember correctly. Makes me very sad.

Edited by PrincessDia
fix
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