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Rules on Trade Corner & Club


RakuenX

Question

Rules for Trade Corner : " 8. We do not allow threads asking for or discussing values. "

Well , I made a price shiny guide on my club and staff deleted it without warning then 

I felt hurt because no rule wrote on Club Rules & Guidelines against my thread 

My question is why a thread on Trade Corner named : " Value Advice " but still exist

What is different ? Even inside that post they just ask the price them nowadays , no deletion from staff then . Or was my thread name was wrong ?

If i'm wrong , I hope staff will implement that 8th rule for Club to avoid misunderstand as me

Edited by RakuenX
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20 minutes ago, Draekyn said:

 

Additionally, how about hiring a moderator versed in market values? We argued for it several times in the past, not sure it ever was considered.

 

 

 

 

Was literally thinking this, but you'd never find anyone who isn't biased to market prices. This is why it would have to be multiple people and require discussion and votes. Unless they're posting market averages which are gathered.

This leaves you with needing either:
A: an Economic Counsel which is unbiased (almost impossible)
or
B: A method to gather averages and for them to be updated/posted which can be done by someone

 

Secret option C: Both A/B with discussion in high value shiny price involving careful consideration of supply and demand, as well as other factors

 

Basically you'd need trusted members of the community to do this, preferably staff or others who understands the basics of supply and demand and can refrain from personal bias (most likely no one omegalul)

 

Even then, these are NOT solid prices that people would have to follow. These would be suggestive prices which people can be guided with.

Edited by Charderp
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2 hours ago, Bearminator said:

Value discussion means not posting your own list of values. I will copy rules from this thread :

 

Rules are as follows:

  • Do not post the value of a species unless it is in direct response to a question or answer.
  • Do not request advice about something you do not intend to buy/sell/trade in the near future.
  • Do not attempt to artificially manipulate prices. If you are caught doing so, there will be consequences. 

 

See,  difference here is visible.

First off, why are you imposing rules of a Trade Corner Value Discussion thread to a team's club's exclusive shiny value discussion thread ?

 

You even go ahead and highlight the rule where one must not value things not in question, but just because this rule exists in the trade corner general value discussion thread, why should one be barred from discussing the value of a shiny (even if not yet found) with his club members ? And it in the end, it is just a discussion & assumed values, not like it's forcing someone to follow the values in question.

 

So yeah even though a difference is visible, you are off-topic and off-thread, literally. Those rules are for a completely different thread which is for general discussion of value of anything, whereas the thread removed in question was a club's own guide to help and guide fellow club members regarding shiny values exclusively.

 

2 hours ago, Bearminator said:

No, we dont allow value discussion outside this one thread. If this guide is made in public club page it still needs to follow our directions- which means value discussion can be held only in that thread, only if someone asks for it.

I see you are referring to Rule #8 of Rules for Trade Corner, but this was not a thread made in trade corner. 

 

2 hours ago, Bearminator said:

This thread was made as only place where we allow discussing trades. If that club would be hidden that would be other discussion, but since its public it needs to follow our rules .

Yes, in trade corner it was.

And what exactly do you mean by 'our rules' ?
I just went through the Open Club Rules listed in Club Rules & Guidelines, the shiny value club guide you deleted was following all the rules.

 

So your argument is invalid that rules were not followed. In fact, on the contrary, all the rules were followed and a not single one broken.

 

1 hour ago, Bearminator said:

It was deleted due to being not suitable to our way of holding shiny value discussion.

Are you an active shiny trader ? Or even aware or care about shiny values at this point ?

Cause I wonder who is this 'our' you refer to... Cause if you think you are speaking on the behalf of community members, you're hugely mistaken.

Should be rather obvious seeing how the deletion has only enraged the people, rather than help anyone or gain anything.

 

The thread was a detailed guide regarding shiny values which was open to discussion, and was following all the actual rules of the forum.

Also, it was not made in general discussion or trade corner, it was a club's guide meant for club members. And even if the club is an open one, the thread was well within all the Club rules, and even if an outsider was to look at it, they were in the end just a thorough database of assumed values.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kizhaz said:

I would just like to point out a few things, first being since the begining of Clubs introdution the rules have always been that Public Clubs must adhere to all forum rules. Private clubs being a different story. Secondly I don't know why I need to remind some of you, but the old shiny value thread was aweful and I seem to recall more members of the community hating the thread due to the active shiny traders manipulating the prices for what they owned or sold. This was a big reason for it's removal and after the backlash that occured the Value Discussion thread was made with rules in place to prevent it from happening again. So while somebody such as myself would find great value in a thread like this since I have no idea on prices, it's been stated many times in the past that it's something that is not allowed on our forums.

And I would like to point out that it was adhering to all the forum rules.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane, was that was different time, different people.... this on the other hand was a club thread, and in case of toxicity rising, club moderators and leaders are well equipped to deal with such posts. Staff intervention, and such severe that the whole thread is deleted, is simply uncalled for.

 

57 minutes ago, Bearminator said:

I will and we have nothing against sharing it in team chat for example. We are not leaving visible on forum any post that is against our rules.

 

'our rules'

I'm just gonna assume you are referring to the forum and club rules, in which case no rules were broken.

 

Stop trying to justify the deletion when clearly the only person at fault here is the staff member who deleted the thread, which was following all the rules, took hard work & hours to come into existence, only to be exterminated without notice and without actual legit cause.

 

My apologies for being so blunt,

But going through this thread, reading the response and justification provided by staff members for this act of abuse of power and bad decision making is just straight up sad.

 

I don't make this wall of text to attack ya'lls ego or start a fight.

To err is human, and someone erred, but it not to late to make amends & do the right thing.

Just following the actual laid down rules and straight up facts, someone clearly owes @RakuenX an apology, and his thread should be put right back where it was.

 

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If it was decided to not hold value discussion on Trade corner unless using this thread I dont see a reason for value discussion/list of prizes to exist in clubs or any other place. Values belong in trade corner and there is one topic, one format it is allowed to exist.

 

There were threads hidden, posts with list of values removed during whole time since this thread were created, and when we didnt allowed Vd at all.  I camly explained to maker of list why it was removed- and it will not be restored.

 

It wasnt just opinion of certain moderator to make this call.

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1 hour ago, Bearminator said:

I dont see a reason for value discussion/list of prizes to exist in clubs or any other place. Values belong in trade corner and there is one topic, one format it is allowed to exist.

A reason for value discussion to exist in clubs is because there's a demand for transparancy in shiny values.

Value discussion belongs in the value advice thread, but that does not mean that it shouldn't be allowed in clubs.

That's like saying "Plants belong in the outdoors, so having plants indoors is not allowed."

 

Usually I'm on board with the actions of staff members as they are aimed to improve the game/community as a whole.

Removal/Censorship of Value Discussion is one of my main irks when it comes to staff-made rules, as it's completely unfounded and baseless.

I'd like to know, doesn't have to be directly from you Bear since I'm well aware you did not make this rule, Why is this rule in place?

 

Before anyone answers, the answer I will not accept is "Shiny traders may spread false information to manipulate the market."

The reason why I don't accept that answer is that it's simply not true, due to the sheer size of the market.

 

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4 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

A reason for value discussion to exist in clubs is because there's a demand for transparancy in shiny values.

Value discussion belongs in the value advice thread, but that does not mean that it shouldn't be allowed in clubs.

That's like saying "Plants belong in the outdoors, so having plants indoors is not allowed."

 

Usually I'm on board with the actions of staff members as they are aimed to improve the game/community as a whole.

Removal/Censorship of Value Discussion is one of my main irks when it comes to staff-made rules, as it's completely unfounded and baseless.

I'd like to know, doesn't have to be directly from you Bear since I'm well aware you did not make this rule, Why is this rule in place?

 

Before anyone answers, the answer I will not accept is "Shiny traders may spread false information to manipulate the market."

The reason why I don't accept that answer is that it's simply not true, due to the sheer size of the market.

 

how could we possibly convince you if you're gonna reject the main argument.

Its fine to disagree. but I think you're overestimating the amount of people that actively use these forums, the main thread thats posted in the trade corner barely gets used and is heavily dictated by a few people. To assume some people wouldnt go as far as actively manipulate the clueless people coming to these kind of threads is just naive.

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2 hours ago, Bearminator said:

Values belong in trade corner and there is one topic, one format it is allowed to exist.

This is beyond silly.

 

By this logic, any thread/comment that isn't strictly discussing the team whose club section the thread/comment is in, should be censored. For consistency's sake, you should probably get to work hiding all of that multimedia discussion/meme sharing/general chitchat in the club section too since I'm sure it'll probably take a while. 

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2 hours ago, Bearminator said:

If it was decided to not hold value discussion on Trade corner unless using this thread I dont see a reason for value discussion/list of prizes to exist in clubs or any other place. Values belong in trade corner and there is one topic, one format it is allowed to exist.

 

There were threads hidden, posts with list of values removed during whole time since this thread were created, and when we didnt allowed Vd at all.  I camly explained to maker of list why it was removed- and it will not be restored.

 

It wasnt just opinion of certain moderator to make this call.

I'm not sure why Trade Corner rules keep being brought up as that's its own separate section. If this was part of the forum global rules, then it would make more sense but it seems irrelevant here. As mentioned above, RakuenX didn't break any of the Club Rules and clubs are managed in their own way. It's stated that if one of those global rules are broken, then a staff member can intervene which isn't the case here. I think the main issue right now is the course of action you took, which was deleting the thread and then informing the player. It should be vice-versa where if the player does make a mistake (which I don't think this person did) you should give them a warning or inform them why they might be crossing the line before immediately taking action. 

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3 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

how could we possibly convince you if you're gonna reject the main argument.

Its fine to disagree. but I think you're overestimating the amount of people that actively use these forums, the main thread thats posted in the trade corner barely gets used and is heavily dictated by a few people. To assume some people wouldnt go as far as actively manipulate the clueless people coming to these kind of threads is just naive.

Could you give me a concrete example of what manipulation would look like on the forum in regards to value discussion?

Because the way you worded it, implies that value advice is also subject to risk of manipulation. Which should be moderated, or preferably self-regulated by having the community call them out on it.

The reason why it is heavily dictated by a few people is (in my opinion) because there is absolutely no transparancy on the market (guess why) and only a very limited amount of players actually have knowledge/information/experience in the market.

 

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The removal of that "Guide" was a collective decision made by the club moderators and the trade corner moderators because it didn't seem healthy for it to be open to be visible to everyone.

As already mentioned before that these kinds of "guides" can be used to manipulate the prices and gives the owner the power to overvalue/devalue any specie for those who refer to these kinds of "guides".

If you have any complains against any action taken by a staff member, take it to Squirtle.

Also this is the suggestion Box, not General discussion. Do not post anything that derails the topic.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, xSparkie said:

As mentioned above, RakuenX didn't break any of the Club Rules and clubs are managed in their own way. It's stated that if one of those global rules are broken, then a staff member can intervene which isn't the case here. 

Only rule about trading in Clubs is literally: 

  1. Each Club is allowed one shop thread. This shop can be a thread where each member of the Club places their goods or a merged Team Shop where the Team sells its members’ items. To be decided by the team owner/leaders.  

It nowhere stats that Club member can make a list being basically list of values for items/pokemon. Just like it was not allowed to list values in shops inside Trade Corner. You can argue that it doesnt state that it's  forbidden here, but since Clubs are following our global rules, and we stated that one of them is not posting value discussion, I don't see reason for clubs to have value list inside of them, unless they are hidden from public view. 

I've talked with player personally about this action that we've made and he had no further issues with this rule being inforced in this case, asking just to restore his list for own use within team/away from forum, which is fine. If he or any Club members still think it was unfair, they can always bring it up with our admins, as always. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bilburt said:

how could we possibly convince you if you're gonna reject the main argument.

Its fine to disagree. but I think you're overestimating the amount of people that actively use these forums, the main thread thats posted in the trade corner barely gets used and is heavily dictated by a few people. To assume some people wouldnt go as far as actively manipulate the clueless people coming to these kind of threads is just naive.

to assume that old data from a different time, where things where different, is still 100% accurate makes me doubt of your ability to moderate properly has your opinion is biased. you need to consider every factor to be sure it's still the same has what happen before becaus if only 1 thing changed then it can affect the whole thing making something that wasn't possible before tottally possible now.

 

in case you just didn't read the whole thread. the thing that has changed is the gtl listing fee allowing shiny to be traded more openly and in bigger number making price manipulation harder to pull off. just becaus of that one thing the thread should be allowed to exist becaus it may change the result.

 

4 hours ago, Bilburt said:

To assume some people wouldnt go as far as actively manipulate the clueless people coming to these kind of threads is just naive.

just want to give an example using the same logic to show how ridiculous this statement is. "when i go outside i always bring my gun and shoot everyone i see becaus your a fool to think that one will hurt you" and if you want to argue that my example is exagerated just consider that the staff is allready consider to be armed has you can all shoot down any thread wich is fine when you use this power on actual bad thing/people but shooting people that might be innocent just becaus of fear make you unqualified to be staff has you are very likely to use your power in a bad way wich will hurt the comunity. think about it for a second why are you staff, to aply writen rule without ever questioning them or to think of how to make this game a better place?

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First purpose . I just want to share for members of club

Of course . They must join club to see my guide , right ?

So if Closed Club , it just need club accept them to join and see it then .

And it will also be deleted then ? Just my curious

I read rules of club very clear . So i made it without thinking more .

I didn't know rules of Trade Corner apply for Club as well

I made this thread just to telling about my solution and suggest to staff write more clearly rules on Club if it's possible

p/s : Thank @Bearminator provided me that list . 

Edited by RakuenX
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56 minutes ago, RakuenX said:

I didn't know rules of Trade Corner apply for Club as well

i think what you didn't know is rather that the staff allow itself to interpret the rule has much has they want to make them able to do nearly everything and that, from what i have seen and also heard, they also tend to be more willing to shoot 9 innocent people than letting 1 bad one alive.

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56 minutes ago, ThePrettyPetard said:

i think what you didn't know is rather that the staff allow itself to interpret the rule has much has they want to make them able to do nearly everything and that, from what i have seen and also heard, they also tend to be more willing to shoot 9 innocent people than letting 1 bad one alive.

Being hyperbolic here. A decision was made initially because it was a public facing club which are more strictly moderated according to global rules. Just as I don't search clubs for support issues as there is a place for them it makes no sense to allow public clubs to have their own public value lists. Private clubs are a different story altogether. The purpose of only having one thread is so that all value opinions can be found in one place rather than scattered among a million different threads or in a dozen public clubs. 

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13 hours ago, ThePrettyPetard said:

to assume that old data from a different time, where things where different, is still 100% accurate makes me doubt of your ability to moderate properly has your opinion is biased. you need to consider every factor to be sure it's still the same has what happen before becaus if only 1 thing changed then it can affect the whole thing making something that wasn't possible before tottally possible now.

 

in case you just didn't read the whole thread. the thing that has changed is the gtl listing fee allowing shiny to be traded more openly and in bigger number making price manipulation harder to pull off. just becaus of that one thing the thread should be allowed to exist becaus it may change the result.

 

just want to give an example using the same logic to show how ridiculous this statement is. "when i go outside i always bring my gun and shoot everyone i see becaus your a fool to think that one will hurt you" and if you want to argue that my example is exagerated just consider that the staff is allready consider to be armed has you can all shoot down any thread wich is fine when you use this power on actual bad thing/people but shooting people that might be innocent just becaus of fear make you unqualified to be staff has you are very likely to use your power in a bad way wich will hurt the comunity. think about it for a second why are you staff, to aply writen rule without ever questioning them or to think of how to make this game a better place?

I read this about 12 times, and I have no idea what to make of it.

Ill just assume you wanted to call me a bad moderator, because of personal bias, and adress the one point that kinda made sense?

 

13 hours ago, ThePrettyPetard said:

to assume that old data from a different time, where things where different, is still 100% accurate makes me doubt of your ability to moderate properly has your opinion is biased. you need to consider every factor to be sure it's still the same has what happen before becaus if only 1 thing changed then it can affect the whole thing making something that wasn't possible before tottally possible now.

none of my argument was based on "old data" not sure why you think it is either. I literally just pointed out a few facts I know to be true because of my job as a Trade Corner moderator, which are: "the prizes get dictated by a very few that post there" I never said the prizing was innacurate or maliciously intended. I just said that these few people have basically full authorithy over what value something has. Furthermore Im not sure why you would make such an exaggerated argument about me shooting everyone in the streets, but I just said that to assume NOBODY would have malicious intend when prizing stuff and use it for their own gain is naive. 

 

I hope I adressed at least one of the points you had

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6 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

none of my argument was based on "old data" not sure why you think it is either. I literally just pointed out a few facts I know to be true because of my job as a Trade Corner moderator, which are: "the prizes get dictated by a very few that post there" I never said the prizing was innacurate or maliciously intended. I just said that these few people have basically full authorithy over what value something has. Furthermore Im not sure why you would make such an exaggerated argument about me shooting everyone in the streets, but I just said that to assume NOBODY would have malicious intend when prizing stuff and use it for their own gain is naive. 

even if you never stated the old data yourself  the fact that your reply to this

18 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I will not accept is "Shiny traders may spread false information to manipulate the market."

like this

18 hours ago, Bilburt said:

how could we possibly convince you if you're gonna reject the main argument.

show that you agree with the argument based on old data. since you stated latter that it would be naive to belive no one could try to do it, it was showing sign of an influence of that old data. but i may let that one pass since it's a high probability and not something certain just suspicious.

 

19 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

Furthermore Im not sure why you would make such an exaggerated argument about me shooting everyone in the streets,

i made that exagerated example becaus it is the same thing that was done here just with more serious thing becaus i don't feel like it's the job of anyone to get rid of everything that could be malicious. in my opinion the job of a moderator is to get rid of things that are malicious. if you just get rid of things that could just be malicious but aren't, it looks like you abuse your power becaus you don't want to have to keep an eye on one more thing.

 

i'll just explain the original example a little more since you said that you don't exactly get it and slightly edit detail to make it more accurate to the situation.

1. the whole staff team is going out a gun. 

2. the forum post are people going out with a knife.

3. people holding a knife longer than 5 inch are the people making value list thread.

4. people malicious tend to have a knife over 5 inch

the staff goes out everyday and just shoot everyone with a knife of over 5 inch just becaus some malicious people have the same type of knives.

 

sure those people might be worth to check more often to make sure they aren't malicious but shooting them right away will just end up killing many innocent people out of lazyness of those with the gun.

59 minutes ago, Bilburt said:

I literally just pointed out a few facts I know to be true because of my job as a Trade Corner moderator, which are: "the prizes get dictated by a very few that post there"

hum... would you mind elaborating this a little more becaus all i can understand from this is "i know i am right becaus it's my job to be right" unless you just mean that you saw some people manipulate the prize before wich i never argued that it wasn't a thing. it's slightly out of context for the argument here if it is the second one of my guess.

 

no need to read the final if my second guess was wrong

 

since i fear you might not understand what i mean by out of context i will give you one more example

1. person A made a thread about value advice

2. person B made a thread about value and tried to manipulate the price

3. these 2 people are completly unrelated beside that they live in the same city

 

i am arguing that that the person A shouldn't go to jail becaus he never did anything malicious. meanwhile you argue that he should go to jail becaus the person B was malicious.

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1 hour ago, XelaKebert said:

Being hyperbolic here. A decision was made initially because it was a public facing club which are more strictly moderated according to global rules. Just as I don't search clubs for support issues as there is a place for them it makes no sense to allow public clubs to have their own public value lists. Private clubs are a different story altogether. The purpose of only having one thread is so that all value opinions can be found in one place rather than scattered among a million different threads or in a dozen public clubs. 

well then let's go down a little more to the root of this if you don't mind. since your argument is that isn't the place for it wich i could agree with. the root of the problem is the rule itself not allowing price listing becaus of previous people doing price manipulation. now let's think about why this rule was made in the first place.

 

i'll go ahead and guess your argument so feel free to correct me if i am wrong. "to help the comunity by preventing price manipulation to ever happen again" but that argument has a flaw since the value advice thread even while being manipulated helped people so it's existance was needed. so a value list thread that wasn't manipulated would have been more helpfull. to make this shorter this rule is there becaus the staff was to lazy to do their job and moderate or make a serious value list thread

 

a rule that hurt the comunity just to lower the amount of work of the staff doesn't have it's place where the staff is supposed to be people invested into this game to make it better. this rule was just the easy way out not the proper way to deal with this.

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20 hours ago, ThePrettyPetard said:

well then let's go down a little more to the root of this if you don't mind. since your argument is that isn't the place for it wich i could agree with. the root of the problem is the rule itself not allowing price listing becaus of previous people doing price manipulation. now let's think about why this rule was made in the first place.

 

i'll go ahead and guess your argument so feel free to correct me if i am wrong. "to help the comunity by preventing price manipulation to ever happen again" but that argument has a flaw since the value advice thread even while being manipulated helped people so it's existance was needed. so a value list thread that wasn't manipulated would have been more helpfull. to make this shorter this rule is there becaus the staff was to lazy to do their job and moderate or make a serious value list thread

 

a rule that hurt the comunity just to lower the amount of work of the staff doesn't have it's place where the staff is supposed to be people invested into this game to make it better. this rule was just the easy way out not the proper way to deal with this.

A price list that also needs changed as values change based on supply and demand gives players a hard price whereas value advice says what they can expect at most in general cases. Having a hard price list publicly visible outside of a shop that is actually selling that commodity is bad. Since value is subjective a hard price list is more easily manipulated than advice. Multiple players can give advice and the person asking can choose to not listen. If someone lists a hard price and someone disagrees with it then there is a whole new can of worms to worry about. It's easy to say that it would be good but when the prices change based on what is on the market maintaining an accurate list is just not feasible. This is why advice is allowed but no public price lists.

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On 8/6/2018 at 9:18 AM, XelaKebert said:

A price list that also needs changed as values change based on supply and demand gives players a hard price whereas value advice says what they can expect at most in general cases. Having a hard price list publicly visible outside of a shop that is actually selling that commodity is bad. Since value is subjective a hard price list is more easily manipulated than advice. Multiple players can give advice and the person asking can choose to not listen. If someone lists a hard price and someone disagrees with it then there is a whole new can of worms to worry about. It's easy to say that it would be good but when the prices change based on what is on the market maintaining an accurate list is just not feasible. This is why advice is allowed but no public price lists.

i can agree with you on the negative effect of a hard price list but a list could be maintained if it is somewhat more vague like for example shiny starter tend to sell around 100m but can be lower or higher depending on the popularuity of that said shiny (or even something like a wide range like 50- 500m) , common shiny with nothing special around 1m (0.5-5m). that way people would have somewhat of an idea without having a fix price and leave a fair amount of room for negotiation.

Edited by ThePrettyPetard
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