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FNTCZ

Proposed rework to the Shiny System.

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FNTCZ   
Posted (edited)

I think most people would agree that the shiny market and the whole concept of shiny trade is hurt and in need of healing. Before proposing a solution, I will highlight some of the problems.

 

  • The system is too linear for an mmo: Rare items in most other succesful mmos have at least certain degree of non-linearity attached to them, upgrades, unique or at least very rare characteristics. For instance slots with the right enchantment on them, etc. There is also incentives or factors that make you desire such items. (and actually use them! wear a rare armor or wield a rare and expensive weapon, etc) I think pokemmo tried to approach this whole idea with shiny breeding (making shinies better and differenciating shinies within species from one another: ie, a competitive shiny magikarp vs a random shiny magikarp) and this is indeed the way to goo but there is just so much unexplored potential for improvement, I will expand on this later.
  • Influx and outflux of the quantities are not balanced, the current system doesn't even allow the concept of balance. The shinies that actually go out of the market are the ones being bred, but with our current system the devs can't control and tweak the numbers till a desired influx/output rate is achieved since breeding is not really a core mechanic of the shiny market right now but rather a 'luxury' its not difficult, its not interesting, it is just expensive but other than that is pretty straight forward. Also, some lower tier shinies with bad ivs are just useless, no one will breed them, no one even cares about them, they literally only harm the market.
  • Market stagnation: it is very non-dynamic, too slow, with a high entry barrier. These are three big problems enclosed in one. The market is small and actually kinda boring (this could be seen as a consequence of the above problems)
  • There is no real 'rarity' or 'uniqueness' as @Darkshade mentioned on an earlier reply on the topic, there is a permanent increase of each species. in my opion here, and I am hinting towards my proposed solution is that the only two factors that account the shiny's prize are its species, the ammount of said species that is avaliable to the market and its ivs. The first two cannot be changed, and the third is in a very strange spot right now (because of all the reasons already mentioned) but even then, this one does allow room of change (as it is, pokemmo has a different breeding system to the normal games). There could also more factors added to account for a shinies value that we don't have right now.

 

As I see it all these problems are very closely related,  and as you have probably noticed, ive hinted or talked about shiny breeding in plenty of the points I've made. In my opinion it is simply the holy grial, with the right mechanics to support it, it could actually make shinies interesting and unique.

 

Now, I will state the changes/rework to the current mechanics that I propose and then I will expand on why they just make so much sense, it is actually only two very simple changes with a huge impact.

 

  1.  Make the shiny rate and its spawn ivs deppend on the species rarity; Common shinies will be more common and have better ivs, whereas rare species will be even more rare and will spawn with very bad ivs.
  2.  Change to the shiny breeding mechanics. when breeding two shinies together, add a random factor to the non-braced ivs. (Think of this as the 'core'-upgrade system pretty much every mmo ever uses, image for reference: https://sites.google.com/site/cabalonlinerevealed/_/rsrc/1315820757769/upgrading-items/upgrade-core/Upgrade-Outcomes.png)

 

What does this accomplish? 

 

*It adds up to the endgame It's no longer a linear system, the trading itself will be more active, as will be shiny breeding.

 

*A Bigger, Better market with more interaction. Wether you want to hunt, breed, sell, buy or collect shinies, there will be way more of it, and a greater interess in doing so; more supply, more demand, and rarer 'items'(shinies) that are worth more.

 

*Decent competitive shinies (and thus an actual use for shinies) are more accesible. Yeah, now breeding a perfect shiny comp would be a very difficult task, it'd involve patience, some luck but mainly buying and breeding lower tier shinies a lot, this makes the market way more active. But you could also choose to breed non-perfect, above average and usable competitive shinies.

 

*Easier to get the 'first taste' of the system to get in touch and engaged with more players. (Entry barrier) Say you are a new player, now the chances of getting a common during the storyline shiny is way higher, and this does not hurt the market, on the other hand, it feeds it and makes it grow! you can now decide what to do with your OT shiny rattata, sell it? (it will be desired even tho it is common because now multiple breeds are needed to have a chance to improve results)  hunt for more commons and breed them? make a godlike rattata? hunt for rares to breed with your nice iv rattata? whatever you decide, it will be cool and you will get curious about how the shiny system works, you will be asking questions in global/channel/trade chat and you will be more engaged with the game itself. (right now the only question you can ask is: "how much is this worth [Rattata]" not "what can I do with this" since as the system is now, shiny breeding/trading is out of the question for more casual players). it will get you going.

 

*Numbers can be tweked. the chance of an iv being lowered during a breed can deppend on the average, devs can find the right probability values so that the expected value of a single process of breeding is an okay competitive result, yet the near-perfect rolls are very rare and thus the shiny becomes unique and expensive... (think of a normal or an f distribution). with these, you can actually balance the market's influx and output

 

*Every shiny is now unique and has room for improvement, this is an addictive conecpt.  (Have you ever spent tons and tons of cores in those old mmos to get your Rare sword from +12 to +13? Sure, +12 was good enough to use but you wanted +13 right?. see how this applies here?)

 

*Every shiny will be unique. wether its value comes from its species, its ivs or an extensive breeding process, each and every shiny will have something (besides the aesthetics) that makes it worth. there will no longer be common, bad iv shinies that no one desires.

 

Ive tought of more and I could go onto the specifics but to be honest i'm a little tired of writing all of this so I will just let you decide for yourself.

 

QA:

 

Q: This will hurt collectors and hunters who are not interested in a shiny's ivs or competitive usage.

A: No, it will not! On the contrary, since more rare species would have a lower shiny rate, even if its ivs are bad it makes them more desireable and expensive (and more valuable to collectors regardless of the ivs). They could be worth more with worse ivs than they would with our current system!

 

Q: Transitioning period.

A: Designing this is obviously necesary, the specifics could be studied so the best result is obtained where everyone will be happier, I have actually tought of some ideas around the implementation but I'm to tired to expand on them, if this does get traction I will do so later on.

 

Feel free to add any more questions, opinions or ideas.

 

 

Edited by FNTCZ
grammar

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ZaoLi   

lol no. u want rare shinies to be even more rare? what? its rare to find them in the wild. that diminishes your chances intensely. u want it so no one could ever possibly find a rare shiny?

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FNTCZ   
Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, ZaoLi said:

lol no. u want rare shinies to be even more rare? what? its rare to find them in the wild. that diminishes your chances intensely. u want it so no one could ever possibly find a rare shiny?

With the appropiate numbers it'll work. thats just statistics. also could be implemented alongside dungeons.

 

Remember growlithe, ninetales, and all the species who used to be rare and valuable, now they are not. Haxorus are being sold quite cheap too and theres like a billion people hunting 24/7 for hydreigon, the current system just does not work.

Edited by FNTCZ

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razimove   
21 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

Haxorus are being sold quite cheap too

Sadly, they're not, and people really need to open their eyes, for the value they're paying for a horde mon. 

 

4 hours ago, FNTCZ said:

Change to the shiny breeding mechanics. when breeding two shinies together, add a random factor to the non-braced ivs.

Agree with you on everything but this. For someone who bred quite a few shinies, I enjoy the current system, saves you a ton of cash and you get a neat shiny to show your e-pen. 

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FNTCZ   
4 minutes ago, redspawn said:

Agree with you on everything but this. For someone who bred quite a few shinies, I enjoy the current system, saves you a ton of cash and you get a neat shiny to show your e-pen. 

You could still breed good quality competitive shinies (things like 27\30/25/x/28/31 natured) quite affordably, ideally more than now. it's only the perfect 5x31 pokemon that would be most rare (kind of like the example with the mmo sword that you could upgrate to +11 or +12 but getting it to +13 or +14 was much harder and expensive even tho the +11 was still pretty good and usable). This way you could choose between making a couple good comps or perfecting one while taking the risks. (also you can always stop breeding when your pokemon is near perfect)

 

Keep in mind that the random factor can bennefit you too, ie you breed two pokemon with 30 attack and while there's a chancr that the offspring would come out with 28 or 29 attack, it could also do so with 31 attack. It is up to the devs to balance the numbers so that the expected value of your breed is a good one while keeping the very top tier iv mons rare and valuable (5x30-31s)

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razimove   
1 minute ago, FNTCZ said:

Keep in mind that the random factor can bennefit you too, ie you breed two pokemon with 30 attack and while there's a chancr that the offspring would come out with 28 or 29 attack, it could also do so with 31 attack. It is up to the devs to balance the numbers so that the expected value of your breed is a good one while keeping the very top tier iv mons rare and valuable (5x30-31s)

Yeah I get that, to give you an example, my last bred shiny. 

bdcff6b3bb543eddf0353f050f2be217.png 

 

Problem of it being random, is that a breed like this would not have been possible, this was by abusing the current mechanics, and overall maybe I spent ~13-15m total on this one.

If it was completely random, it would have been maybe a lot harder to get this IVs, due to no high rolls being guaranteed.

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DrButler   

whats wrong with being able to breed shinies without lowballing new people for their shinies or farming npcs all day?

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Goku   

You do realize most mons that were associated with being rare a year ago are like common right now and prob lost half their value. What... did you think that once the encounter rates of mons classified as "rare" were increased to 1/60k (just an example)  that the current ones on server were just going to magically disappear? It unfortunately doesn't work that way. The damage is done.

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FNTCZ   
1 hour ago, Goku said:

You do realize most mons that were associated with being rare a year ago are like common right now and prob lost half their value. What... did you think that once the encounter rates of mons classified as "rare" were increased to 1/60k (just an example)  that the current ones on server were just going to magically disappear? It unfortunately doesn't work that way. The damage is done.

 

That's what transitioning periods are for. a plan's got to be developed and carried out.

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1 hour ago, Goku said:

You do realize most mons that were associated with being rare a year ago are like common right now and prob lost half their value. What... did you think that once the encounter rates of mons classified as "rare" were increased to 1/60k (just an example)  that the current ones on server were just going to magically disappear? It unfortunately doesn't work that way. The damage is done.

You have to incorporate systems like this with a better sink, and then implement them at the same time.

 

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Zymogen   
On 7/18/2018 at 7:07 PM, ZaoLi said:

lol no. u want rare shinies to be even more rare? what? its rare to find them in the wild. that diminishes your chances intensely. u want it so no one could ever possibly find a rare shiny?

They're called "rare" shinies for a reason. You're not supposed to have a good chance at finding one.

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ZaoLi   
On 7/19/2018 at 3:34 PM, Zymogen said:

They're called "rare" shinies for a reason. You're not supposed to have a good chance at finding one.

bruh, go try to find a squirtle real quick. tell me if u think u have decent chances of getting shiny squirtle

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razimove   
5 minutes ago, ZaoLi said:

bruh, go try to find a squirtle real quick. tell me if u think u have decent chances of getting shiny squirtle

right now you have the same odds as everyone. It's fair game. The same will be, if this gets implemented. Same odds.

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ZaoLi   
1 minute ago, redspawn said:

right now you have the same odds as everyone. It's fair game. The same will be, if this gets implemented. Same odds.

i never said i have worse chances??

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razimove   
1 minute ago, ZaoLi said:

i never said i have worse chances??

you're literally complaining about rare shiny odds. Thing is, they're rare for a reason, and the chinese community is showing you that even tho they're rare, they can still shake their market and create scars.

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ZaoLi   
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, redspawn said:

you're literally complaining about rare shiny odds. Thing is, they're rare for a reason, and the chinese community is showing you that even tho they're rare, they can still shake their market and create scars.

bro i never complained lmao. i told him how it is rare to already encounter a regular rare pokemon, why make the shiny chance worse than the 1/27,000 rate it already is? that is all i have said

 

edit: like what does he want? the odds to be 1/1,000,000 ? i dont even understand what the proposition is

Edited by ZaoLi

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Acarus   
2 hours ago, ZaoLi said:

bro i never complained lmao. i told him how it is rare to already encounter a regular rare pokemon, why make the shiny chance worse than the 1/27,000 rate it already is? that is all i have said

 

edit: like what does he want? the odds to be 1/1,000,000 ? i dont even understand what the proposition is

1st it is chance , just imagine it is like a dice with 30k faces , you will have 1 out of 30k chance of landing on the shiny (same with donator status)

2nd the chinese can find rare because there r alot of them and they hunt every regular like always

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DrButler   
Posted (edited)

so what exactly is the problem with number of rare species increasing? that people wont buy overpriced shit they cant afford without nolifing the game or "donating" their way up anymore? your e-balls shrinking cause other people have that shiny as well?

 

what is wrong with more people having access to shinies they like and being able to breed them? the only people suffering from that are the ones that are filthy rich already, so whats the fkn deal?

 

 

Edited by DrButler

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Goku   
3 hours ago, DrButler said:

so what exactly is the problem with number of rare species increasing? that people wont buy overpriced shit they cant afford without nolifing the game or "donating" their way up anymore? your e-balls shrinking cause other people have that shiny as well?

 

what is wrong with more people having access to shinies they like and being able to breed them? the only people suffering from that are the ones that are filthy rich already, so whats the fkn deal?

 

 

Those rich people, most of them worked hard to obtain their wealth when the shiny market was stable and a lot of them have been here since 2013 / 2014 when you weren't. So plz be considerate towards them and stop your hate posting.

 

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DrButler   
2 minutes ago, Goku said:

Those rich people, most of them worked hard to obtain their wealth

lowballing noobs on a daily basis is hard work? i mean not all of you are lowballing sumbags, ok, but why the heck do you mind other people having a piece of the cake as well? would appreciate an answer to that question.

 

if i wanna call you fkn selfiss parasites, ill call you fkn selfish parasites. if you cant handle that feel free to block me.

 

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CCMayhem   
1 hour ago, Goku said:

Those rich people, most of them worked hard to obtain their wealth when the shiny market was stable and a lot of them have been here since 2013 / 2014 when you weren't. So plz be considerate towards them and stop your hate posting.

 

This thread is full of people who don't know how economics work. Supply and demand my-friend. Shinies are already hard enough to obtain, there's absolutely no reason to make it harder.

While I don't agree with @DrButler standard of civil conversation, he has a point. 

 

P.S I've played since 2012 and have not seen a single shiny in the wild.

 

 

 

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On 7/18/2018 at 4:23 PM, FNTCZ said:

Decent competitive shinies (and thus an actual use for shinies) are more accesible. Yeah, now breeding a perfect shiny comp would be a very difficult task, it'd involve patience, some luck but mainly buying and breeding lower tier shinies a lot, this makes the market way more active. But you could also choose to breed non-perfect, above average and usable competitive shinies.

I am confused by this part - competitive shinies won't become more accessible if you want to make them more/very difficult to get...
The second half of this paragraph describes options that are already in place with the current breeding mechanics. Thus "an actual use for shinies" does already exist.

 

On 7/18/2018 at 4:23 PM, FNTCZ said:

Influx and outflux of the quantities are not balanced

[...] Make the shiny rate and its spawn ivs deppend on the species rarity; Common shinies will be more common and have better ivs, whereas rare species will be even more rare and will spawn with very bad ivs.

[...] the near-perfect rolls are very rare and thus the shiny becomes unique and expensive... (think of a normal or an f distribution). with these, you can actually balance the market's influx and output
[...] since more rare species would have a lower shiny rate, even if its ivs are bad it makes them more desireable and expensive (and more valuable to collectors regardless of the ivs). They could be worth more with worse ivs than they would with our current system!

You do not need to rely on rolls - you could simply make all needed breeders and be safe, especially if common species have better IVs overall.
This is also missing a proposed outflux for rare species.
The current suggestion chooses to increase the value of (rare/high IV) shinies that are already in the possession of players by making those harder to get.
This happens at the expense of any (future) shiny hunters/breeders.
I think it lacks a good reason. Just as others asked as well: Why?
 

On 7/18/2018 at 4:23 PM, FNTCZ said:

Every shiny will be unique.

How?
Even if you make it more difficult, the option for others to find exactly what you got is still existent.
Also take into account, that any bred comp might randomly turn out to be shiny.
Uniqueness is sort of arguably already in place if you value a certain/your own OT very high.
Otherwise, you would need to propose that shinies from breds may no longer become shiny without two shiny parents or limit each species to only one shiny (meaning, no one else may find another one if one has been found)...

 

On 7/18/2018 at 4:23 PM, FNTCZ said:

[...] Also, some lower tier shinies with bad ivs are just useless, no one will breed them, no one even cares about them, they literally only harm the market.

[...] Common shinies will be more common and have better ivs, [...]

there will no longer be common, bad iv shinies that no one desires.

In addition to the ones you mentioned yourself, more "older" common shinies would add to the list of undesired ones since their IVs would fall short of the newly introduced ones.

 

On 7/18/2018 at 4:23 PM, FNTCZ said:

Market stagnation: it is very non-dynamic, too slow, with a high entry barrier.

[...] Easier to get the 'first taste' of the system to get in touch and engaged with more players. (Entry barrier) [...] (right now the only question you can ask is: "how much is this worth [Rattata]" not "what can I do with this" since as the system is now, shiny breeding/trading is out of the question for more casual players).

The actual entry barrier for newer players is asymmetrical information.
If you want to make it easier for them to participate in the market, it would be best if they are made aware of the actual worth of anything they are holding.
I believe the currently best solution suggested for this is the implementation of an auction function.
You could propose to allow any shiny trades only via a function like that to ensure that (newer) players are motivated to participate in the market as they get more out of it.

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Goku   
2 hours ago, DrButler said:

lowballing noobs on a daily basis is hard work? i mean not all of you are lowballing sumbags, ok, but why the heck do you mind other people having a piece of the cake as well? would appreciate an answer to that question.

 

if i wanna call you fkn selfiss parasites, ill call you fkn selfish parasites. if you cant handle that feel free to block me.

 

Ermmm first of all I'm not complaining about other players having a piece of the cake, but once everyone has a piece there won't be a cake left. Also feel free to call the "smarter" players fcking parasites while you can grind your poor ass off in order to make a comp while they can buy a few boxes because of what they do. Your logic just doesn't make sense to me. SORRY.

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Coge   
15 minutes ago, Goku said:

Ermmm first of all I'm not complaining about other players having a piece of the cake, but once everyone has a piece there won't be a cake left. Also feel free to call the "smarter" players fcking parasites while you can grind your poor ass off in order to make a comp while they can buy a few boxes because of what they do. Your logic just doesn't make sense to me. SORRY.

 

2 hours ago, Goku said:

Those rich people, most of them worked hard to obtain their wealth when the shiny market was stable and a lot of them have been here since 2013 / 2014 when you weren't. So plz be considerate towards them and stop your hate posting.

 

You have to remember that shiny rate did not change since then. It's just that there are way more active players now so it seems like the "rare" shinies are more common, but in reality the shiny to player count ratio is probably more or less the same.

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Goku   
4 minutes ago, Coge said:

 

You have to remember that shiny rate did not change since then. 

Well technically... It went from 8192 to 30 000. There wasn't a thing like hordes.. are you missing smth?

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