Fixing the shiny rate while boosting the shiny economy

[techshaman]

I have come up with a few ideas to allow you to return the shiny rate to it's natural 1/8k or even better chances while still boosting the economy.

The first part of this idea will be to raise the chances of receiving terrible IVs on shiny pokemon.

The second part of this idea will be to raise the max IVs on a shiny pokemon 10% to 25% higher than normal pokemon.

Finally you should implement shiny aging to make a shiny age up to 10 times, removing 1 random IV per age.

 

with these successfully implemented, it doesn't matter how many shinies flood the market, more people will want them, and most people will only seek out the best shinies they can find.

With the implementation of part 1 cosmetic shinies will be more available for cheaper to people who don't really play the game as hardcore players, hence less gameplay and less experience.

With the implementation of part 2, the mad rush will begin to receive the best IVs which will obviously be as rare or more rare than normal shinies are now.

With the implementation of part 3, finding a fully aged shiny with good stats will be next to impossible and the shiny economy will revolve around these astonishingly rare gems.

The most unique shiny system in pokemon history

[XelaKebert]

Personal opinion here. This would not help at all. The shinies wouldn't disappear and having shinies age to nothing just doesn't feel right. Shinies would still end up saturating the market.

[techshaman]

2 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

Personal opinion here. This would not help at all. The shinies wouldn't disappear and having shinies age to nothing just doesn't feel right. Shinies would still end up saturating the market.

you're not looking at the big picture.

FIrst of all the shinies wouldn't age to nothing. They would age a maximum of 10 IVs away to boost rarity for good IVs.

I don't think you understand the demand for high IV pokemon. Every hardcore pokemon gamer will pay in the millions to get one of these pokemon. Since shinies would have up to 10-25% higher IVs than normal pokemon, the demand for these rare shinies will go nowhere but up. As it stands, shinies are just cosmetic bonuses. There's no real reason to get a shiny except just to have one. If these ideas are implemented, people will nitpick and bad IV shinies will be worthless and discarded like trash eventually when their market value drops. The high IV shinies will sustain a high value because people have a reason to want them. IVs is the lifeblood of the pokemon world. If shinies could have higher IVs than normal pokemon, more people would seek them out, more people would buy them, and people would pay higher prices for them.

[XelaKebert]

Just now, techshaman said:

you're not looking at the big picture.

FIrst of all the shinies wouldn't age to nothing. They would age a maximum of 10 IVs away to boost rarity for good IVs.

I don't think you understand the demand for high IV pokemon. Every hardcore pokemon gamer will pay in the millions to get one of these pokemon. Since shinies would have up to 10-25% higher IVs than normal pokemon, the demand for these rare shinies will go nowhere but up. As it stands, shinies are just cosmetic bonuses. There's no real reason to get a shiny except just to have one. If these ideas are implemented, people will nitpick and bad IV shinies will be worthless and discarded like trash eventually when their market value drops. The high IV shinies will sustain a high value because people have a reason to want them. IVs is the lifeblood of the pokemon world. If shinies could have higher IVs than normal pokemon, more people would seek them out, more people would buy them, and people would pay higher prices for them.

Even with bad IVs shinies still carry a lot of value. That value doesn't simply go away because the IVs are lower. It may lose some but not nearly as much as you think.

[techshaman]

Just now, XelaKebert said:

Even with bad IVs shinies still carry a lot of value. That value doesn't simply go away because the IVs are lower. It may lose some but not nearly as much as you think.

that's also something I took into consideration. Yes casuals will be able to get them slightly cheaper but my main concern is all these economy fanatics. I'm trying to please them with this idea while still making the shiny rate more natural. Casual players that enjoy shinies currently suffer with the system that's in place. If I simply said "make the shiny rate normal, the shiny economy won't suffer very badly if you do that" the devs would assume I'm just another QQer and I'm not trying to solve anything. So I came up with this powerful 3 step system that makes the shiny economy more vast and have more variety

[Tyrone]

Why do you believe the shiny economy needs a boost?

[techshaman]

28 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Why do you believe the shiny economy needs a boost?

I've been informed by others that if the shiny encounter rates were normal instead of this ridiculous 1/30k, the shiny economy would "die". This is a safeguard against that.

Edited June 26, 2018 by techshaman

[FNTCZ]

I even believe the whole opposite: better IV shinies > more people buy low tier shinies to breed, trading becomes more active > less (and better) shinies overall

 

Basically a two front economy with inputs (decent IV shinies that are used to breed) and outputs (comp shinies?) with their respective balancing in prices.

Edited June 26, 2018 by FNTCZ

[techshaman]

1 minute ago, FNTCZ said:

I even believe the whole opposite: better IV shinies > more shiny breeding > more shiny buying > less shinies overall

The shiny economy apparently thrives on the sheer low amount of shinies, and the value thereof. If the ideas I suggested are implemented the range of prices for shinies will widen exponentially, which will raise the market value of those in demand and lower the market value of those not in demand.

yeah I think the shiny breeding might be a problem, so they should keep the rates for egg shinies where the shiny rate currently is while still implementing the other ideas to prevent ridiculously OP shinies from emerging early on but still give the chance of acquiring such shinies.

[XelaKebert]

15 minutes ago, techshaman said:

The shiny economy apparently thrives on the sheer low amount of shinies, and the value thereof. If the ideas I suggested are implemented the range of prices for shinies will widen exponentially, which will raise the market value of those in demand and lower the market value of those not in demand.

yeah I think the shiny breeding might be a problem, so they should keep the rates for egg shinies where the shiny rate currently is while still implementing the other ideas to prevent ridiculously OP shinies from emerging early on but still give the chance of acquiring such shinies.

Having large price variations for the same thing is not a good thing at all. It makes valuation much more difficult for everyone and raises the barrier of entry into the market for new people.

[techshaman]

1 minute ago, XelaKebert said:

Having large price variations for the same thing is not a good thing at all. It makes valuation much more difficult for everyone and raises the barrier of entry into the market for new people.

that is not what I'm trying to say here. Look at it this way. There will be a price for shinies for people who just want a shiny, and there will be a price for shinies for people who want the good shinies. The valuation could be as simple as demand vs IVs.... anybody that's worried about IVs is already doing a lot of math so people that sell the high IV pokemon are probably already doing the math too. Shiny market with IVs implemented is just adding the IV market into the shiny market

[XelaKebert]

1 hour ago, techshaman said:

that is not what I'm trying to say here. Look at it this way. There will be a price for shinies for people who just want a shiny, and there will be a price for shinies for people who want the good shinies. The valuation could be as simple as demand vs IVs.... anybody that's worried about IVs is already doing a lot of math so people that sell the high IV pokemon are probably already doing the math too. Shiny market with IVs implemented is just adding the IV market into the shiny market

The market thrives off of supply and demand. The high value shinies have that price because they are in the highest demand. Returning the rate to 1/8192 with your tweaks literally fixes nothing. Even with degrading IVs the value will not drop all that much until that particular species begins to saturate the market. With no real outflux of shinies the market will crash and burn pretty quickly. Most shiny traders don't even care about IVs. Those who do are in it for comp shinies, which are primarily given out as awards for official events, which this suggestion would also hurt drastically. Who will play an event for a comp shiny built the way they want when it's IVs are going to degrade over time? You can't say, "Well you can exclude gift shinies," because while it may be possible, it would not be fair or logical to have two different classifications for shinies.

[techshaman]

14 minutes ago, XelaKebert said:

The market thrives off of supply and demand. The high value shinies have that price because they are in the highest demand. Returning the rate to 1/8192 with your tweaks literally fixes nothing. Even with degrading IVs the value will not drop all that much until that particular species begins to saturate the market. With no real outflux of shinies the market will crash and burn pretty quickly. Most shiny traders don't even care about IVs. Those who do are in it for comp shinies, which are primarily given out as awards for official events, which this suggestion would also hurt drastically. Who will play an event for a comp shiny built the way they want when it's IVs are going to degrade over time? You can't say, "Well you can exclude gift shinies," because while it may be possible, it would not be fair or logical to have two different classifications for shinies.

let me explain it differently. Implying these ideas will implement a whole new type of shiny, lets call them elite shinies. With a max IV of 25% higher than normal pokemon, and a 1/6 chance that epic IV stat will decrease once every aging sequence up to 10 times, the chances of aquiring and aging a max IV elite shiny would make the supply and demand shift heavily to demand.

if shinies had higher max IVs than normal pokemon, the demand would skyrocket for a shiny with just 1 point above max normal pokemon IVs, meaning the decay rate of up to 10 points wouldn't really be that bad as long as the IV is still higher.

Shinies as event pokemon are indeed an epic idea, but what if you gave out custom Items that pokemon could hold that affect the pokemon's IVs by 5 or 10 points up to the maximum IV of that pokemon? Not only that but you could also give out items that de-age shiny pokemon, effectively giving them the stats you got when they were caught.
Elite shinies could have an E while shinies have S, signifying that the elite shiny has IVs that breach the normal pokemon IV cap.

Lets face it, as long as shinies can be caught, the market and the value will deteriorate eventually, slowly but surely. Raising the drop rate to 30k isn't the way to go about it. The best way to go about it is to find out some intricate plan to find something else to make people actually want, or even NEED them. As it stands, you are constantly receiving more supply and less demand... there is no other fix for it as of yet. My idea offers more supply and a massive demand.

Edited June 26, 2018 by techshaman

[XelaKebert]

3 minutes ago, techshaman said:

let me explain it differently. Implying these ideas will implement a whole new type of shiny, lets call them elite shinies.

Elite shinies that degrade to "regular" shinies over time so "Elite but not really elite."

 

7 minutes ago, techshaman said:

With a max IV of 25% higher than normal pokemon, and a 1/6 chance that epic IV stat will decrease once every aging sequence up to 10 times, the chances of aquiring and aging a max IV elite shiny would make the supply and demand shift heavily to demand.

So illegal stats that other normal species have 0 access to and will eventually decay to nothing.

 

7 minutes ago, techshaman said:

if shinies had higher max IVs than normal pokemon, the demand would skyrocket for a shiny with just 1 point above max normal pokemon IVs, meaning the decay rate of up to 10 points wouldn't really be that bad as long as the IV is still higher.

Shinies are heavily desired because of their rareness and not the IVs. Good IVs are definitely a bonus, but it's the rareness that really makes shinies desirable, and the decay would certainly be bad. IVs are essentially the DNA of the species and making those degrade over time undermines that whole aspect.

 

9 minutes ago, techshaman said:

Shinies as event pokemon are indeed an epic idea, but what if you gave out custom Items that pokemon could hold that affect the pokemon's IVs by 5 or 10 points up to the maximum IV of that pokemon? Not only that but you could also give out items that de-age shiny pokemon, effectively giving them the stats you got when they were caught.

No, simply no. That's not the point at all, shiny event prizes have been a thing since 2012. You are proposing an entirely different class of stats that non-shinies would have 0 access to but that would still degrade to average over time. Creating new items to undermine this system is just bad. If you have to introduce new items and mechanics to fix issues with the system then is it really that great of a system?

 

16 minutes ago, techshaman said:

Elite shinies could have an E while shinies have S, signifying that the elite shiny has IVs that breach the normal pokemon IV cap.

Again, you are proposing illegal stats that would be inaccessible to normal species. This is a simple no. The game has 0 boosted stats in any instance as it stands and breaking the traditional cap is not a good idea as it can completely break the underlying formulas to calculate stats.

 

17 minutes ago, techshaman said:

Lets face it, as long as shinies can be caught, the market and the value will deteriorate eventually, slowly but surely. Raising the drop rate to 30k isn't the way to go about it. The best way to go about it is to find out some intricate plan to find something else to make people actually want, or even NEED them. As it stands, you are constantly receiving more supply and less demand... there is no other fix for it as of yet. My idea offers more supply and a massive demand.

No, it creates more supply and less demand. Higher influx of shinies leads to less demand. If the chances were greater for a shiny to appear more people would have a shiny and therefore less would be trading them. No one will be able to get any value from them at all. The market is already beginning to saturate even with a 1/30k encounter rate and breeding being a 2 for 1 trade. Your idea literally causes a faster rate of influx which will cause the market to rapidly deteriorate.

[techshaman]

okay I'm not even going to finish reading that because it looks like you haven't read any of the things I've said. You keep saying "decay into nothing" like I haven't been repeatedly saying the shinies age only 10 times and each time it takes a random IV out.... 10 points maximim all together.

Second of all everything you keep saying sounds like ignorance in the face of change.

if Elites became a thing, as well as IV boosting items, demand for these OP pokemon will outweigh any demand in any situation. Shines and pokemon with high IVs are both highly sought from two seperate communities. When you combine them into one, the demand for shinies will skyrocket, not only because shinies can be the strongest, but because if the items are implemented, shinies can be upgraded to elites, raising the demand for shinies as well as elites.

 

Now if you say "decay to nothing" again after my third or fourth time explaining that that isn't what happens at all, then I will just stop replying to you and wait for somebody with an open mind to reply because at that point it would be obvious you're just not reading anything or worse, trying to poke holes in logic that isn't even there for the sake of opposing my idea.

[Anthrazit]

I have to say, this thread/suggestion got really messy >.<
It is difficult to pinpoint the reason behind it, but I got the impression that, due to the following statements...

5 hours ago, techshaman said:

[...] part 2, the mad rush will begin to receive the best IVs which will obviously be as rare or more rare than normal shinies are now [...]

4 hours ago, techshaman said:

[...] I don't think you understand the demand for high IV pokemon. Every hardcore pokemon gamer will pay in the millions to get one of these pokemon. [...] As it stands, shinies are just cosmetic bonuses. [...] If shinies could have higher IVs than normal pokemon, more people would seek them out, more people would buy them, and people would pay higher prices for them.

2 hours ago, techshaman said:

[...] yeah I think the shiny breeding might be a problem, so they should keep the rates for egg shinies where the shiny rate currently is [...]

2 hours ago, techshaman said:

[...] Shiny market with IVs implemented is just adding the IV market into the shiny market

11 minutes ago, techshaman said:

[...] Shines and pokemon with high IVs are both highly sought from two seperate communities. When you combine them into one, the demand for shinies will skyrocket, [...] shinies can be upgraded to elites, raising the demand for shinies as well as elites.

...there might be a misconception/ignorance of the current shiny breeding system?

Are you aware, that via the breeding system, players currently are able two 'craft' two shinies into one, thereby refining the IVs?
People are already able to "upgrade" their shinies,

IVs are already part of the shiny market,
If a player wants, his/her shinies can already be more than "just cosmetic bonuses"
And yes, the demand for high IV shinies is already here...

[techshaman]

1 minute ago, Anthrazit said:

I have to say, this thread/suggestion got really messy >.<
It is difficult to pinpoint the reason behind it, but I got the impression that, due to the following statements...

...there might be a misconception/ignorance of the current shiny breeding system?

Are you aware, that via the breeding system, players currently are able two 'craft' two shinies into one, thereby refining the IVs?
People are already able to "upgrade" their shinies,

IVs are already part of the shiny market,
If a player wants, his/her shinies can already be more than "just cosmetic bonuses"
And yes, the demand for high IV shinies is already here...

hmm, that's a major hole in the shiny system... that might explain why people keep saying the shiny market is slowly but surely dying... if 2 shinies automatically breed a shiny I don't see why people are so quick to dismiss my idea for making shinies more common with a few modifications

[Anthrazit]

1 minute ago, techshaman said:

hmm, that's a major hole in the shiny system... that might explain why people keep saying the shiny market is slowly but surely dying... if 2 shinies automatically breed a shiny I don't see why people are so quick to dismiss my idea for making shinies more common with a few modifications

both parents die by breeding them

[techshaman]

Just now, Anthrazit said:

both parents die by breeding them

oh, then that only improves my system

[XelaKebert]

Just now, techshaman said:

hmm, that's a major hole in the shiny system... that might explain why people keep saying the shiny market is slowly but surely dying... if 2 shinies automatically breed a shiny I don't see why people are so quick to dismiss my idea for making shinies more common with a few modifications

Because with the current system it's a 2 for 1 trade so the market effectively loses 1 of the species. I read your idea but I am telling you that creating a larger influx with little to no outflux for the market will not fix the economy at all. That's not how any economy works. I'll give a real world example here. Look at the Guitar Hero/Rockband games. They started off with a good idea and took some time between each iteration and refining the system, but once Guitar Hero got to the 3rd iteration they started cranking them out ~6months or so apart. This lead to an oversaturation on the market and a general loss of interest in the entire genre simply because they oversupplied the market. Your idea would essentially do just that.

 

1 minute ago, techshaman said:

oh, then that only improves my system

No it doesn't. Who will breed shinies that will degrade over time?

[techshaman]

1 minute ago, XelaKebert said:

Because with the current system it's a 2 for 1 trade so the market effectively loses 1 of the species. I read your idea but I am telling you that creating a larger influx with little to no outflux for the market will not fix the economy at all. That's not how any economy works. I'll give a real world example here. Look at the Guitar Hero/Rockband games. They started off with a good idea and took some time between each iteration and refining the system, but once Guitar Hero got to the 3rd iteration they started cranking them out ~6months or so apart. This lead to an oversaturation on the market and a general loss of interest in the entire genre simply because they oversupplied the market. Your idea would essentially do just that.

 

No it doesn't. Who will breed shinies that will degrade over time?

they don't degrade completely, they have a fixed degradation limit that is designed to make high IVs rarer and harder to obtain. This will make the 2 for 1 trade happen more often in order to improve them further. If you're that angry about the raised influx, just make a device to boost one shiny pokemon of your choice, and the option to put a shiny of your choice in one or each slot in the machine. One for each IV, one for nature, basically every aspect of the shiny. But you can only use a fully aged or de-aged shiny in the machine and there's a chance of failure depending on how many slots, or how often you've used the machine.

[XelaKebert]

Just now, techshaman said:

they don't degrade completely, they have a fixed degradation limit that is designed to make high IVs rarer and harder to obtain. This will make the 2 for 1 trade happen more often in order to improve them further. If you're that angry about the raised influx, just make a device to boost one shiny pokemon of your choice, and the option to put a shiny of your choice in one or each slot in the machine. One for each IV, one for nature, basically every aspect of the shiny. But you can only use a fully aged or de-aged shiny in the machine and there's a chance of failure depending on how many slots, or how often you've used the machine.

No it won't because you'd have to, by default, make it so the lower limit for the degarding caps out around 31 to make it even worthwhile. The only players who use shiny breeding mechanics are those who want to dump obscene amounts of money into 6x31 shinies or those after shiny versions of baby species, Togepi/Smoochum/Elekid/etc, since it's a 2 for 1 trade. What you want is for shinies to be more common, 1/8192, to "fix the economy" by creating a larger influx than there already is of shiny species. You then aim to fix that by 1) increase the chances for bad IVs on them, 2) boost the IVs above normal, legal IVs that would be otherwise inaccessible to non-shiny species,  and 3) have the IVs degrade over time. After being shown how these don't really help anything you want to add items to reset the IVs, which will degrade again, or boost the IVs in general. Now you want to add a slot machine to potentially boost the stats of the shiny put in? This still resolves nothing. This is not ignorance in the face of change, it is sound economic reasoning. Restoring the shiny rate to the vanilla rate will kill the market no matter what you do to it unless you literally make the shinies disappear entirely after a set period of time, which is not good at all because then no one will move shinies around or be willing to sink them out of the market. Your suggestions don't even give incentive for players to sink them out of the market. The current shiny breeding mechanics already lean more towards higher IVs being passed to the offspring with more stats being directly inherited from the parents.

 

[techshaman]

the whole point of this idea is to make weak useless shinies as common as the 1/8k original, making good IV pokemon about the same as normal, and making good elites even more rare. The demand for the elites and good IVs will remain the same while the useless shinies become more available to casuals by dropping in price

[Darkshade]

23 minutes ago, techshaman said:

the whole point of this idea is to make weak useless shinies as common as the 1/8k original, making good IV pokemon about the same as normal, and making good elites even more rare. The demand for the elites and good IVs will remain the same while the useless shinies become more available to casuals by dropping in price

 

As previously pointed out - while some value is held in IVs, a lot of value is held in 'rarity'.

While you are quite happy to make the distinction between 'Good IV shinies' and 'Bad IV shinies'; a majority of people care more about the species, so inflating the amount of shinies overall, and in turn the amount of X species is unlikely to be a positive economically.

 

 

 

[techshaman]

Just now, Darkshade said:

 

As previously pointed out - while some value is held in IVs, a lot of value is held in 'rarity'.

While you are quite happy to make the distinction between 'Good IV shinies' and 'Bad IV shinies'; a majority of people care more about the species, so inflating the amount of shinies overall, and in turn the amount of X species is unlikely to be a positive economically.

 

 

 

what about adding a second variety of shiny pokemon called "shadow pokemon" that are essentially the polar opposite and custom sprited by artists to be dark twisted versions of shiny pokemon with this system in play for them?

[razimove]

28 minutes ago, techshaman said:

what about adding a second variety of shiny pokemon called "shadow pokemon" that are essentially the polar opposite and custom sprited by artists to be dark twisted versions of shiny pokemon with this system in play for them?

no thanks. Makes no sense, and isn't cannon.