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Senile

Hydreigon & Draco Meteor

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With the upcoming update, most, if not all currently obtainable moves/abilities/items are expected to function. This includes the implementation of Draco Meteor, and by extension, Draco Meteor on Hydreigon.

 

Due to the shift in Tiering Policy to avoid banning pokemon to Uber, and instead make ingame changes or tweaks, a proposition has been made to simply remove Draco Meteor from it's movepool before it is added, similar to the preemptive Outrage nerf. Although we strongly believe this will ensure that Hydreigon won't be banworthy anytime soon,  we would still like community feedback on whether this measure would be necessary or preferred. Part of the reason Draco Meteor is specifically being chosen for omission is because it has not been added to the game yet, and so removing it from Hydreigon's movepool would be least disruptive way to alter Hydreigon. Additionally, if we do remove it, Draco Meteor can be added to Hydreigons movepool at a later point, if we think it won't be problematic.

 

The reason Draco Meteor on Hydreigon is a concern specifically comes from the following factors:

  • It is already a dominant offensive threat, between its strong coverage options, high offenses, & other tertiary options that make it more difficult to deal with, such as Taunt or Roost.
  • Draco Meteor specifically is strong enough to turn KOs that Hydreigon previously could not get into guaranteed/probable 2HKOs, making the list of more "reliable" answers to Hydreigon very small.
  • The addition of the newly functioning moves/abilities/items aren't really expected to impede Hydreigon's viability significantly, so no significantly good tools for dealing with Hydreigon are expected to show up with the update.
  • The pokemon that would best be able to check & suppress it would be powerful, faster offensive threats that would heavily punish Hydreigon users on a revenge kill. This would include pokemon such as Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Latis, etc.; However, for various reasons, adding these pokemon is not an immediate option. Either because they themselves would likely end up being just as problematic & banworthy if not moreso than Hydreigon, because they're Legendary pokemon slated for implementation in Legendary dungeons which cannot just be done as a throwaway addition, or in most cases, both.

 

With that in mind, we would still like feedback on this matter. When participating in the discussion, keep in mind & attempt to answer these questions:

  • Is it likely Hydreigon with Draco Meteor would end up being obviously banworthy after the update? If not, what new options would be able to reliably deal with or pressure it?
  • If it is likely banworthy, are there practical, alternative solutions for mitigating Hydreigon's impact on the metagame other than removing Draco Meteor from it's movepool?
  • If neither of these have good answers, at what point would you consider adding Draco Meteor to Hydreigon to be reasonable?

 

Discuss.

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2 minutes ago, Suneet said:

Why not just add it to the game but make it banned for competitive use?

Seems more practical for those who want to use it for PvE, but blah blah complex bans blah blah

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Well Outrage got nerfed anyway, I don't see why Draco meteor wouldn't be.
Something like 110 instead of 130 seems okay. If Draco meteor stays the same, Salamence will be the one abusing it, with its 110 base special attack.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 211-249 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't think Draco meteor as it is will be any good for the meta, especially when we don't want anymore Ubers, a simple nerf can fix it imo.

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I think Hydreigon should have access to Draco Meteor upon its release, with one week of a wait before deciding if anything should be banned (unless there's something horribly broken that needs a quickban.) I really dislike the idea of removing moves from learnpools but that's an entirely different discussion.

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45 minutes ago, Lazaaro said:

Well Outrage got nerfed anyway, I don't see why Draco meteor wouldn't be.
Something like 110 instead of 130 seems okay. If Draco meteor stays the same, Salamence will be the one abusing it, with its 110 base special attack.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 211-249 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't think Draco meteor as it is will be any good for the meta, especially when we don't want anymore Ubers, a simple nerf can fix it imo.

The outrage nerf is still canon, as the 90 base power is from previous generations. Draco Meteor never had base power different than 130 and I presume this isn't an option.

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9 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

The outrage nerf is still canon, as the 90 base power is from previous generations. Draco Meteor never had base power different than 130 and I presume this isn't an option.

You my friend, are vacillating. Draco meteor was 140 power upon gen4

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58 minutes ago, Lazaaro said:

Well Outrage got nerfed anyway, I don't see why Draco meteor wouldn't be.
Something like 110 instead of 130 seems okay. If Draco meteor stays the same, Salamence will be the one abusing it, with its 110 base special attack.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 211-249 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't think Draco meteor as it is will be any good for the meta, especially when we don't want anymore Ubers, a simple nerf can fix it imo.

Everyone who uses 252hp/252 def hippowdown should outright uninstall this.

Besides, hydro pump salamence.

Either way, draco meteor sala can actually prove itself really dangerous, maybe more than hydra.

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1 minute ago, pachima said:

You my friend, are vacillating. Draco meteor was 140 power upon gen4

Ops, poor choice of words, I wanted to say that it's base power was never below 130. I'm awake for almost 30 hours if that can be my excuse

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4 minutes ago, pachima said:

Either way, draco meteor sala can actually prove itself really dangerous, maybe more than hydra.

I don't think so at all. Porygon2 should deal with Salamence very effectively as long as Salamence is stuck with only intimidate as an ability.

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

I don't think so at all. Porygon2 should deal with Salamence very effectively as long as Salamence is stuck with only intimidate as an ability.

I see you are a believer who thinks eviolite will come in 2 weeks tm

Either way, good point, however pretty sure p2 also messes with hydreigon too. (Not sure if draco meteor + superpower life orb 2hko)

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3 minutes ago, pachima said:

I see you are a believer who thinks eviolite will come in 2 weeks tm

Either way, good point, however pretty sure p2 also messes with hydreigon too. (Not sure if draco meteor + superpower life orb 2hko)

ya but taunt fucks everything up

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1 minute ago, gbwead said:

ya but taunt fucks everything up

105 base special attacks  ice beams hurt.

But that also proves salamence gets rekted by it, so idk. We need to see.

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4 minutes ago, pachima said:

105 base special attacks  ice beams hurt.

But that also proves salamence gets rekted by it, so idk. We need to see.

I agree that P2 will threathen Hydreigon, but Taunt forces a 50/50 between attacking while hydreigon does Taunt or using recover while Hydreigon switches out directly. 

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2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Preferentially, I'd love to see Draco Meteor implemented in game with the opportunity to complex ban it from competitive play in the future.

It wouldn't be complex banned, it'd be downright removed from the learnset.

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1 minute ago, suigin said:

It wouldn't be complex banned, it'd be downright removed from the learnset.

That's why I said "preferentially", as in this is what I want. I don't want to see the move removed in general. It takes away from PvE and normal playthroughs. 

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with the upcoming eviolite i think it is ok to implement draco meteor. i also think if you reduce the dmg to 110 its more than fair and balanced to the meta.

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27 minutes ago, Kyu said:

We're just doing them all, so yeah, Eviolite is in there

all everything or all items?

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5 minutes ago, Matoka said:

all everything or all items?

All of everything obtainable

 

Edit: I made you a post

 

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8 minutes ago, pachima said:

I just realized that after eviolite and this excellent hyper offensive pvp community, we are gonna wish back the 500 turns old UU battles.

I genuinely wonder if we're gonna see more Eviolite Gligar than Gliscor in OU.

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