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Hydreigon & Draco Meteor

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Aerun   
1 minute ago, suigin said:

I genuinely wonder if we're gonna see more Eviolite Gligar than Gliscor in OU.

Toxic orb Gliscor tho

Oh wait...

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Matoka   
1 hour ago, Kyu said:

All of everything obtainable

 

Edit: I made you a post

 

God bless, I look forward to it and thanks a bunch for clarifying Kyu, these posts are so nice to have, though I understand why they are few and far between

 

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I don't believe removing Draco Meteor is the right way to go. Firstly the most prominent switch in for Hydreigon is Mantine, which walls Hydreigon with ease.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 162-190 (84.3 - 98.9%) -- not a KO. I'm aware that there are some gimmicky sets that run electric moves or Taunt/Roost that would beat Mantine but these are options already available to Hydreigon, the addition of Draco Meteor wouldn't suddenly make this Hydreigon set OP.
Presuming this patch gives both Draco Meteor and Eviolite means Hydreigon would have another hard counter in Chansey. 
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 266-314 (74.5 - 87.9%) -- not a KO. 
236+ Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 362-427 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns. If you decided to run this much attack you would either be dropping speed or special attack, both of which would be making Draco Meteor much less threatening. In my opinion the Taunt set would be the way to go with beating this Pokemon. 
The point I am trying to make here is either Hydreigon won't break through these two popular picks in OU without dropping Draco Meteor from its move set (or severely limiting the use of Draco Meteor) because the taunt set really dislikes lowering its special attack, thus it would not even use Draco Meteor. Even switching a steel type into Draco Meteor can provide you with momentum because of its resistance.
In regards to an offensive match up, sure Hydreigon will be getting many kills with Draco Meteor alone but this does not make it overpowered, after using this move your opponent is provided a swing turn to setup something like a swords dance, which could outright beat you if you're not prepared.

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suigin   
Modest has a good chance to 2HKO and it's guaranteed with rocks up (chances are Mantine will switch in every time to defog those rocks but that also lets people get some minor but significant chip on it)
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 172-206 (90 - 107.8%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Modest Dark Pulse into Draco Meteor also deals a 96% minimum damage with life orb
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 71-86 (37.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 114-136 (59.6 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If Timid the absolute lowest roll for this combination is 89,4%

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 66-78 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 51.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 105-125 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Milotic takes 93% min from this combination if Timid (Would probably still die if rocks are up even through lefties recovery)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 71-86 (35.3 - 42.7%) -- 88.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 117-138 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
While Dragon Pulse alone deals 90% damage max to Milo and 86% max to Mantine
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 75-91 (37.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mantine: 70-83 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Chansey is a full stop to Hydreigons that would use Draco Meteor but we're trying to avoid a meta where everyone is forced to run Chansey or Porygon 2 in order to not lose a mon to Hydreigon.

 

And regarding non-wall matchups, Hydreigon now has a much better chance at getting rid of Conkeldurrs switching in by dealing 79-95% damage, it can deal 50% damage to non fully defensive steel types with neutral Dracos alone and overall really limits switch ins in comparison to its current state making pivoting less viable of a strategy to beat it.

Hell even at -2 spatk it can still deal a good amount of damage in order to limit frail things from setting up on it, not saying that the option of setting up on it after a Draco is completely moot but it's hardly a harmless Pokemon even at -2.

 

Hydreigon is already kind of hard to play around right now,  you have to pretty much let it attack you once to learn its set and then act accordingly, Draco would certainly make scouting its set a much bigger issue than it already is and limit its counterplay options.

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Gunthug   
Posted (edited)

I'm torn on this, leaning towards the "test it out first" option. The mere fact that 2 pages of discussion have already sprouted out of this, on a mostly dead comp alley, tells you that Draco Hydre is anything but a "sure thing" when it comes to being banworthy - and don't we usually reserve quick bans for sure things? Let's not forget that the addition of fully working abilities/moves/items is essentially a power creep that will hopefully make hydreigon slightly less centralizing. If truly the only thing keeping Hydre from being banworthy is a slightly more powerful nukeSTAB, then I have a feeling hydreigon is gonna find its way to the chopping block sooner or later with or w/o draco.

 

On the other hand, one of my biggest concerns with complex bans is the confusion/simplicity factor, and I'll admit that the fact that this won't change the status quo (hydre's are already incapable of getting draco) does ease that concern a bit. I also see the detriment of ignoring the possibility of a complex ban entirely, as hydre is a dynamic, fun pokemon that arguably benefits the metagame in many ways. However, even IF draco hydreigon is broken, we could spend days arguing WHAT makes it broken, and Draco Meteor probably isn't it. So the whole logic of a quick ban, and i guess a complex ban too, just don't sit right with me. Discussion is healthy though, so I'm glad we're seeing that

 

edit: another thing i wanted to point out that Tyrone said in our discord, and possibly here too, is that with all the new items and such making its way into the meta, this might not be the proper time to test Draco hydreigon anyways - it would be harder to make objective sense of the metagame's health with so much in flux. So perhaps witholding Draco at first, with the chance to test it out later once things settle, isn't a bad option to keep in mind

Edited by Gunthug

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Lazaaro   
21 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

that with all the new items and such making its way into the meta, this might not be the proper time to test Draco hydreigon anyways - it would be harder to make objective sense of the metagame's health with so much in flux. So perhaps witholding Draco at first, with the chance to test it out later once things settle, isn't a bad option to keep in mind

Agreed
 

 

22 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

even IF draco hydreigon is broken, we could spend days arguing WHAT makes it broken, and Draco Meteor probably isn't it.

Well Hydreigon isn't broken atm, sure it can taunt Mantine / Milo / Blissey, but Hydreigon has been in the plays for a while, and nobody seemed to be arguing about it being broken or so.
If Hydreigon becomes problematic in the future, it will obviously be due to the newly 130 base special attack move.

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kiwi   
1 hour ago, suigin said:
Chansey is a full stop to Hydreigons that would use Draco Meteor but we're trying to avoid a meta where everyone is forced to run Chansey or Porygon 2 in order to not lose a mon to Hydreigon.

 

+1

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Risadex   
1 hour ago, suigin said:

Chansey is a full stop to Hydreigons that would use Draco Meteor but we're trying to avoid a meta where everyone is forced to run Chansey or Porygon 2 in order to not lose a mon to Hydreigon.

 

We didnt already live in a meta where people must run mantine/milotic/tenta (most with haze) to avoid been sweeped by volcarona ?

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suigin   
11 minutes ago, Risadex said:

We didnt already live in a meta where people must run mantine/milotic/tenta (most with haze) to avoid been sweeped by volcarona ?

You can usually switch in stuff like Gyarados Dragonite Salamence Azumarill as well to force Volc out.

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pachima   
6 hours ago, Risadex said:

We didnt already live in a meta where people must run mantine/milotic/tenta (most with haze) to avoid been sweeped by volcarona ?

Thats because people can´t see the power of stone edge shuckle.

8 hours ago, suigin said:
Chansey is a full stop to Hydreigons that would use Draco Meteor but we're trying to avoid a meta where everyone is forced to run Chansey or Porygon 2 in order to not lose a mon to Hydreigon.

Give chansey eviolite and put it in a tier with 50 fighting types, and at the end of the month you would still see chansey top #1 usage. Thus may sound exaggerate, but UU had heracross at #1 spot for months, and when chansey came, it immediately snatched that place.

Pokemmo + chansey not top pick = Lies.

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7 hours ago, suigin said:

You can usually switch in stuff like Gyarados Dragonite Salamence Azumarill as well to force Volc out. 

Not true you also have to predict which set volcarona is running. It's the same with hydreigon. You guys are discussing about Hydreigon beeing too strong and forget how unhealthy Chansey will be with her eviolite thing. There are a lot of ways to wall Hydreigon even with the upcoming Eviolite Dusclops you can wall it. It's all about predicition.  In the end when eviolite comes out 95% of the folks are playing chansey, cause noone here is creative and just needs a wall for everything. So i totally agree with pachima here. If you implement Draco Meteor the more creative player will know how to play against it and the unskilled one will play chansey (FACt). Just lower its dmg a bit and your fine to go. Dont let us get to another gen3 walling meta.

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gbwead   
Posted (edited)

What do you guys think would become the most effective Hydreigon sets once we get access to Draco Meteor?

Imo, the most common sets would be:

Specs Hydreigon

Spoiler

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs  
Ability: Levitate  
Level: 50  
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe  
Modest Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Draco Meteor  
- Dark Pulse  
- Flamethrower  
- Shock Wave

Counters: Chansey, Blissey, Calm Milotic, Calm Mantine (if no shock wave), Calm Togekiss, Careful Mandibuzz, Probopass, Umbreon, Porygon2, Lickitung, Lickilicky, etc.

Taunt Hydreigon

Spoiler

Hydreigon @ Leftovers  
Ability: Levitate  
Level: 50  
EVs: 196 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 52 SpD / 4 Spe  
Modest Nature  
IVs: 0 Atk  
- Draco Meteor | Dragon Pulse 
- Taunt  
- Roost  
- Dark Pulse | Flamethrower

Counters: Calm Milotic, Aerodactyl, Calm Volcarona, Careful Scizor (if no Flamethrower), Lickitung, Lickilicky, Illumise (if no Flamethrower), Slowking (if no Dark Pulse), etc.

 

Mixed Hydreigon

Spoiler

Hydreigon @ Life Orb  
Ability: Levitate  
Level: 50  
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe  
Rash Nature  
- Draco Meteor  
- Superpower  
- Dark Pulse | Work up
- Flamethrower | Work up

Counters: Calm Milotic, Chansey (if no work up), Calm Mantine, Careful Mandibuzz, Calm Togekiss, etc.

 

There are plenty of other sets for Hydreigon, but imo if someone chooses to not run Calm Milotic, there is a decent chance the pokemon that switches on Hydreigon will die for no other purpose than scouting Hydreigon's set. Bold Mantine, Bold Milotic, Careful Hippowdon and several other mons that used to check Hydreigon are no longer able to do so by giving Hydreigon access to Draco Meteor.

 

edit:

13 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

Not true you also have to predict which set volcarona is running. It's the same with hydreigon. You guys are discussing about Hydreigon beeing too strong and forget how unhealthy Chansey will be with her eviolite thing. There are a lot of ways to wall Hydreigon even with the upcoming Eviolite Dusclops you can wall it. It's all about predicition.  In the end when eviolite comes out 95% of the folks are playing chansey, cause noone here is creative and just needs a wall for everything. So i totally agree with pachima here. If you implement Draco Meteor the more creative player will know how to play against it and the unskilled one will play chansey (FACt). Just lower its dmg a bit and your fine to go. Dont let us get to another gen3 walling meta.

Volcarona is in no way comparable to Hydreigon. There are way too many checks and counters to Volcarona that beat the vast majority of Volcarona's sets. Hydreigon counters do not counter the vast majority of Hydreigon's sets once it gets Draco Meteor. Volcarona always ends up with serious coverage issues depending on the set it runs unlike Hydreigon, so it's very simple to build an effective defensive core to stop it.

Edited by gbwead

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Scoholz   
Posted (edited)

Like others stated before me, I don't think it would be a good thing to remove Draco Meteor from Hydreigon's moveset. There are many players that don't care about PvP that would suffer from this and with all the end game content that will come, a move like that would probably be helpful.

 

I also think something as to be done. I'm not an expert but I do think reducing the power of Draco Meteor could be a great option, or a quick ban even though i'm surely not the best judge for the latest.

 

Thanks for reading me

Edited by Scoholz

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razimove   
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Scoholz said:

There are many players that don't care about PvP that would suffer from this and with all the end game content that will come

We don't know what will ''end game pve'' be like, since we only know that dungeons will come one day, and that's a very far future most likely.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Hydreigon counters do not counter the vast majority of Hydreigon's sets once it gets Draco Meteor.

Not to mention, like you said, that he can run stuff like charge beam, which deals with mantine, and can maybe become threatning to milotic. Calcs below, a damaged milotic really doens't get much chances to enter on this.

 

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 47-57 (23.2 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 133-156 (65.8 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited by redspawn

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pachima   

I find it fun how ppl are quick to judge offensive pressure (Yeah, we should commit the same mistakes as in the past and get extremely fun 500 turn battles, sure whynot?)

Meanwhile, no1 mentions how cancersome tier will be with eviolite chansey and eviolite p2 around. As far as I see it, Hydreigon is nearly unstoppable now. However, draco meteor itself doesnt give it more than eviolite does to some walls, so hydreigon will still be nearly unstoppable but in the same degree as it is now. If its not banned now, then it has no reason to be when draco meteor and eviolite come. 

 

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AND if someone is arguing about "We dont want to force people into playing chansey or other Eviolite-User". People will spam chansey etc. whether you bring out draco meteor or not. The main questions are: 1. Will there be enough to balance the meta between walls and dmg dealer without forcing people to counter a single pokemon? 2. Is there enough to stop eviolite user?

 

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suigin   
6 hours ago, pachima said:

Thats because people can´t see the power of stone edge shuckle.

Give chansey eviolite and put it in a tier with 50 fighting types, and at the end of the month you would still see chansey top #1 usage. Thus may sound exaggerate, but UU had heracross at #1 spot for months, and when chansey came, it immediately snatched that place.

Pokemmo + chansey not top pick = Lies.

I'd normally agree but lately I've seen Blissey stretched so thin with its movesets in order to beat stuff like Sub CM Chandelure, NP Heal Bell Togekiss, Sub QD/Rest QD Volcarona, while also not being set up fodder for Lucario/Scizor/Ferrothorn etc that I wouldn't be surprised if people don't use Chansey as much as we're expecting (Meaning more people would probably opt for Blissey, not just drop all cancereggs altogether but we'll see).

5 hours ago, MosesBrenner said:

Not true you also have to predict which set volcarona is running. It's the same with hydreigon.

The difference is Volc has to sacrifice a moveslot in order to get the coverage to beat most of these things and its STABS are also resisted by more things, Hydreigon's Draco is only resisted by steel types and only bulky ones can take more than 2 Dracos let alone a Draco+Flamethrower.

 

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Posted (edited)

I want to start this by expressing my appreciation to the devs and tier council for taking steps to try and ensure that we arent banning pokemon that could easily fit in our meta with small tweaks. 

 

That being said, here is my opinion. There are a lot of things that will be added that will change the way this game will be played. Hidden abilities and new items will change the way team are built. Eviolite is pretty big on that front. Also team preview will change the way people predict and switch pokemon in. With team preview more skill will have a bigger impact on the game than it does now. More importantly tho, it gives more value to having a check to X pokemon on a team. You can get away with not having a counter to a given pokemon as long as you can check him. This also gives more value to being able to predict and less risk to doing so which imo is a good thing. Because, just as an example, you will know there is a Hydregon from the beginning of the game so you will know you need to keep your scarf ttar healthy to deal with him or you need to widdle him down until scizor can come in and BP him. But in the same vain your opponent will know what he needs to get rid of in order for any given pokemon to sweep.

 

All in all id say keep it out until we see how the meta shapes up. We can add it in later if we feel it would fit. IF we add it in and the Hydregon becomes broken when before he wasn't, it's pretty obvious what broke him. Id prefer at that point that we add a complex ban simply so storyline people can use Draco Hydregion on their runs or we can use it to do E4 or Gym challenges. But if that is 100% out of the question then its best to air on the side of caution imo.

Edited by codylramey

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Gunthug   
1 hour ago, pachima said:

I find it fun how ppl are quick to judge offensive pressure (Yeah, we should commit the same mistakes as in the past and get extremely fun 500 turn battles, sure whynot?)

Meanwhile, no1 mentions how cancersome tier will be with eviolite chansey and eviolite p2 around. As far as I see it, Hydreigon is nearly unstoppable now. However, draco meteor itself doesnt give it more than eviolite does to some walls, so hydreigon will still be nearly unstoppable but in the same degree as it is now. If its not banned now, then it has no reason to be when draco meteor and eviolite come. 

 

This is usually the part where I'd say "it doesn't matter what you think the meta will look like AFTER the ban - we don't take that into consideration with bans because it's just wild speculation with no real basis for being true." But, given that this entire thread is speculation and we're doing the exact same thing with draco hydreigon, regular tiering protocol is kinda thrown out the window.

 

Do wanna give a quick LOL to the guy who claimed dusclops counters the dark/dragon type hydreigon, well played my man

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20 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Do wanna give a quick LOL to the guy who claimed dusclops counters the dark/dragon type hydreigon, well played my man 

"READ" its all about prediction. You can take dmg of draco Meteor and after that dark pulse (you survive both). Then do painsplit or soemthing else. I give back a big "LOL" to the reading skills of some "human". PREDICTION.

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suigin   
3 minutes ago, MosesBrenner said:

"READ" its all about prediction. You can take dmg of draco Meteor and after that dark pulse (you survive both). Then do painsplit or soemthing else. I give back a big "LOL" to the reading skills of some "human". PREDICTION.

And then what does Dusclops do to Hydreigon? Hydreigon gets a free Roost off that and switches into anything else to reset the stat drops, next time it comes out (hell it could even come out against Dusclops again) Dusclops dies to the same Draco+Dark Pulse combination no matter how much you predict.

And if you have to rely on a hard predict in order to not get pelted by one of the most common moves a mon carries then you're hardly using a counter at all.

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Posted (edited)

Hydreigon is at -2 and lost half of its KP. A second Draco Meteor ist trash so he has to use another move at -2. Even a third Dark pulse at -2 dont kill dusclops.Predict the next move or limit the moves and counter it. You can run icebeam on dusclops:

0 SpA Dusclops Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 54-64 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO 

After that Hydreigon is so low you can easily kill it.

Edited by MosesBrenner

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suigin   
1 minute ago, MosesBrenner said:

Hydreigon is at -2 and lost half of its KP. A second Draco Meteor ist trash so he has to use another move at -2. Even a third Dark pulse at -2 dont kill dusclops.Predict the next move or limit the moves and counter it.

That isn't a counter though, a counter would have to force Hydreigon out. Dusclops can't do a single thing back to Hydreigon.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 66-78 (44.8 - 53%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 39-47 (26.5 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Now Dusclops is at 30%-15% (I'll use 22% as a sample) and Pain Splits vs ideally a 80% Hydreigon putting Dusclops at 57% if I'm not mistaken and Hydreigon at 50%

 

Now at its most suicidal, Hydreigon Dark Pulses again. Now what? Night Shade won't kill, Ice Beam won't kill, Pain Split won't heal you enough to live again, Hydreigon can Dark Pulse again and kill Dusclops or just Roost so he isn't left with like 10% hp.

Again this is a terrible play by the Hydreigon player, who can just easily switch, reset its stat drops and switch back in to repeat the Draco+Dark Pulse combo on a now weaker Dusclops likely at 80% or less. And is not even taking into account whether Dusclops has hazards on his side of the field either which would far lower its chances of survival or you know, the fact that the Hydreigon could always just Dark Pulse first and then Draco which is its most damaging combination anyways.

 

But yeah Dusclops is bad against Hydreigon, sure it lives one Draco+extra move, but only once and there's plenty of other, better mons that can do the same while also forcing some sort of offensive pressure/Guaranteeing Hydreigon to use other moves to follow up and capitalize on them but normally die the second time Hydreigon gets in a position to shoot a second Draco.

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RysPicz   

The only way I'd see Dusclops being a good switch for Hydreigon is when you are sure that it's gonna drop a Draco Meteor on you and you wanna pp stall it.

I just can't imagine a world where ghost type is able to wall a pokemon with Dark STAB, backed up by 125 base special attack and life orb/ specs/ blackglasses (lo.).

 

Dusclops is Hydreigon's check at best. I wouldn't even consider it a switch-in. When we are mentioning "counter", it means that the pokemon can switch in on another pokemon literally all the time and win the fight against it unless some extreme circumstances (freeze, paralyze + parahax 20 turns in a row etc). Counter does not require any predicts, you just blatantly switch in, let's say, Unaware Quagsire walls Mega Charizard X for days, reliably recovers with Recover and threatens Zard with a STAB EQ.

 

That's a counter.

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Posted (edited)

I never said its a counter. i said you can bring it in to get the -2 and get it low HP (Depends on the set) and the roost set is super rare on hydreigon. After the -2 you can play around it. It's the same like saying mantine, gyarados,...are counter to volcarona :). The "real" counter is chansey. The rest depends on the set.

Edited by MosesBrenner

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