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The State of the Economy


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28 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't understand why people are bringing up the shiny market in this economy discussion. The shiny market is completly insignificant when it comes to the MMO economy. There is no credit in MMO, so shiny transactions between players are more or less irrelevant since there is hardly any value being created with these transactions.

The moment a shiny pops up in the server, on the basis of it's rarity and appeal, it gets a value in the market.

The shiny market is not insignificant at all... Due to them having a monetary value, they can be exchanged for that money.

While there generation does not create pokeyen, it does affect the flow of pokeyen in the economy.

 

28 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Battling NPC/Paydaying vs the cost of breeding/tms/items is what our economy is all about. Shinies, meh.

From a competitive player's point of view, maybe that is what the economy is all about.

But there are many who engage in Shiny and Vanity trade too... And those factors play a major role in our economy.

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Just now, Akshit said:

The moment a shiny pops up in the server, on the basis of it's rarity and appeal, it gets a value in the market.

The shiny market is not insignificant at all... Due to them having a monetary value, they can be exchanged for that money.

While there generation does not create pokeyen, it does affect the flow of pokeyen in the economy.

 

From a competitive player's point of view, maybe that is what the economy is all about.

But there are many who engage in Shiny and Vanity trade too... And those factors play a major role in our economy.

Exactly from a competitive player's point of view. If shinies are so insignificant why are they used as prizes for tournaments and events.

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3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

People who are too lazy to grind for shit do not participate in the mmo economy in any way and therefore their concerns should have no weight in this economy discussion.

They do participate, since the money people get from shinies will serve to buy items, comps etc. like the money from shinies will be invested again.

 

1 minute ago, Goku said:

Exactly from a competitive player's point of view. If shinies are so insignificant why are they used as prizes for tournaments and events.

I mean, I'm a competitive player, and my best way of making money is making profit with GTL, buying comp and shinies for cheap and then reselling for more because I'm too lazy to grind for shit anymore.

I'm pretty sure old players like me would do the same.

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4 minutes ago, Akshit said:

The moment a shiny pops up in the server, on the basis of it's rarity and appeal, it gets a value in the market.

The shiny market is not insignificant at all... Due to them having a monetary value, they can be exchanged for that money.

While there generation does not create pokeyen, it does affect the flow of pokeyen in the economy.

 

From a competitive player's point of view, maybe that is what the economy is all about.

But there are many who engage in Shiny and Vanity trade too... And those factors play a major role in our economy.

You do realise there is no credit system in mmo, so the flow of pokeyen is pretty much meaningless. If you have saved up some money, there is no mmo bank where you can deposit that money and get interest for the money you deposited. No one will be able to borrow that money either since you did not deposit it anywhere. The flow of money is important only when we want money to move around so people can use the available ressources to create value. The flow of money in mmo does not create any value, so the shiny market is very insignificant from an economic perspective imo and that has nothing to do with being a competitive player or not.

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9 minutes ago, gbwead said:

You do realise there is no credit system in mmo, so the flow of pokeyen is pretty much meaningless. If you have saved up some money, there is no mmo bank where you can deposit that money and get interest for the money you deposited. No one will be able to borrow that money either since you did not deposit it anywhere. The flow of money is important only when we want money to move around so people can use the available ressources to create value. The flow of money in mmo does not create any value, so the shiny market is very insignificant from an economic perspective imo and that has nothing to do with being a competitive player or not.

Just because there is no mmo bank where money is stored doesn't render the flow of money useless.

Shiny pokemon aside, no pokemon comes with a price tag in this game... People have money and they decide how much to spend it on a pokemon, shiny or not.

The existence of shiny makes people spend an amount on it respectively, just as a player would on a competitive pokemon.

 

The flow of money does not create value, sure... but it does affect it.

And the thread is about The State of the Economy, about the things that have an effect on it.

Just because it is not creating money doesn't mean it's not having an effect.

Edited by Akshit
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3 minutes ago, VincentDefo said:

Decrease the shiny rate by half.

 

It will increase shiny prices tenfold. Even tentacool prices would skyrocket! 

I doubt making it 1/60 k would even have a minor effect. Removing hordes would also just be a shitty idea since farmers gonna be mad af cuz leppas will be worthless and that'll be one way to make decent money disappear. Fixing smth like this isn't easy especially since the problem has been realized a long time ago yet nothing has been done about it and now that it's suddenly a huge problem questions are popping up.

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Influx of new players is one. A lot of old players (which also included myself for quite a while) left the game or are taking a long break due to various reasons. People are grinding, but the players who were actually buying this stuff are now gone, most likely due to lack of any new content, unplayable pvp with more bugs than @Parke has rats. My friend list usually was swarmed and now each time I log in, it's almost empty and there are even moments when it's completely empty ;c

 

Spoiler

@DarylDixon come back to play nabb :v

 

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13 minutes ago, Akshit said:

The moment a shiny pops up in the server, on the basis of it's rarity and appeal, it gets a value in the market.

The shiny market is not insignificant at all... Due to them having a monetary value, they can be exchanged for that money.

While there generation does not create pokeyen, it does affect the flow of pokeyen in the economy.

 

From a competitive player's point of view, maybe that is what the economy is all about.

But there are many who engage in Shiny and Vanity trade too... And those factors play a major role in our economy.

I think he meant that it's kind of a parallel market, like, people who do shiny business are mostly known and just trade together and lowball noobs. The $ they engage are not meant to anything that may have an impact on the gameplay.

 

He gives the comp player vision, and imo, -and im not even a bit of a comp player,- this is the most legit part. His vision gives us what's important, because the market really has an impact on his gameplay. Comp meta can be influenced by the market. Trading shinies wont be much affected, and if it's affected, the only part of that would feel it is the trading part, which is definitely part of every mmo, but less important than gameplay.

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5 minutes ago, Raederz said:

ftfy

So what ? What's the point posting that ?

Are you telling me that if you see, let's say, a shiny snorlax for 100k on GTL you wouldn't try to buy it as fast as possible ?

Not buyers' fault if new guys aren't smart enough to ask for values before selling their shit.

But yeah, I agree that lowball people isn't something to be proud of.

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11 minutes ago, Aerun said:

So what ? What's the point posting that ?

Are you telling me that if you see, let's say, a shiny snorlax for 100k on GTL you wouldn't try to buy it as fast as possible ?

Not buyers' fault if new guys aren't smart enough to ask for values before selling their shit.

But yeah, I agree that lowball people isn't something to be proud of.

I would never compare sniping and lowballing.

 

Also blaming the victim intelligence is essence of scam.

 

Difference is honesty. By sniping on gtl, you're not hiding information you got.

 

___

 

Just to anticipate the "let us make profit" argument, already seen in another discussion I had, people make profit, but they dont make it on other people ignorance. They make it on the situation. People can be particulary interested in stuff so they can overpay, but they know they are overpaying and they have reason for it (time, appreciation, ...), this is the difference between business and scam.

 

The guy who makes profit is the one who will be the intermediaite between the one who particularly wanna buy, and the one who particularly wanna sell, as long as the environement not always let them meet easily.

 

What lowballers do is way different. I keep thinking it should not be allowed, but I also accept that as long as it's allowed, hating on forum is the most I can do.

I mean, if I were a businessman who had responsibilities about shiny trading, having people who depend on my profit, I would use all ways I'm allowed to, to optimise my profit, including lowball, but theres a reason I dont do it. Pokemmo is a game. And I think that frustration, mine or others, should be avoided as much as possible in a game.

Edited by Raederz
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16 minutes ago, Aerun said:

So what ? What's the point posting that ?

He's pointing out what the mmo is really all about. We have old players on one side with knowledge about demand and supply that rip off the fruit of toil of naive new players. Therefore, old players should be happy to see the high influx of new players since it means they have more rip off opportunities. The shiny market is the same as it as always been, high risk high reward, no real value being created and people complaining no matter what.

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56 minutes ago, gbwead said:

People who are too lazy to grind for shit do not participate in the mmo economy in any way and therefore their concerns should have no weight in this economy discussion.

This is very offending y know, but I forgive u gb

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43 minutes ago, Raederz said:

ftfy

Firstly people who do that aren't lazy. They actually smart af cuz they are making the game easier for themselves by creating a loophole. A dishonest loophole call it whatever you want but that being said, editing Aerun's post and making an arrogant comment like that is Irrelevant coming from someone who is in a team doing exactly what you are so against. At least @Aerun is not a hypocrite.

13 minutes ago, pachima said:

Current flow of discussion: A arguments

Raederz: Uses G responses for C arguments.

Lmfao

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28 minutes ago, Scoholz said:

Could we all return on topic please?

So I guess so far what we have uncovered:

 

Reasons why economy is the way it is:

  • Pokeyen is way harder to farm
  • Too many players = too much RP being bought, too many shiny being caught, lots of stuff like everstone, etc farmed... resulting in overall decline in price of everything.

 

Constant Factors due to which deflation hasn't made things better for many:

  • Braces are still worth 10k, TMs still worth the same, etc... while everything else falls; result = people who make their own pokemon keep going broke

 

Things which are affected by the changes economy is going through but does not have a direct impact on economy:

  • Shiny Pokemons & Vanity Items, etc...

 

That's about it I guess. 

With more updates and more content being added... maybe things will take a turn. For better or worse, we'll see...

Edited by Akshit
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8 minutes ago, Akshit said:

Constant Factors due to which deflation hasn't made things better for many:

  • Braces are still worth 10k, TMs still worth the same, etc... while everything else falls; result = people who make their own pokemon keep going broke

 

This. I sometimes feel the entire moveset + boring stuff like that are worth more than the comp itself.

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3 minutes ago, Darkshade said:

It is way harder to farm in comparison to when?

 

And using which methods?

Imo, difficult in farming yen nowadays is about the same as before, maybe slightly easier even. The only problem I see is that the demand and need for it increased by a much larger amount in comparison to the way yen was easier to obtain.

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1 minute ago, Darkshade said:

It is way harder to farm in comparison to when?

 

And using which methods?

It is harder to farm compared to when NPC payout was higher.

 

Using the method of re-battling NPCs.

 

And if one chooses to not battle NPC, all the other methods are even more grinding and pay lesser.

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1 hour ago, Akshit said:

resulting in overall decline in price of everything. 

As mentioned before, the current state of the economy may be beneficial to some (new) players, who can purchase items, shinies, (non perfect) comps and RP more easily.

However, especially the old players who collected a lot of (genderless and HP) comps, shinies, vanity... over the years, have experienced a hughe decline in their wealth.

A lot of hard work and dedication has gone down the drain, especially with the recent changes in breeding - not implying the update was all bad.

 

Shinies are a very important aspect of the game (not for everyone of course) as they represent a symbol of achievement, attention and wealth.

Too many shinies are now in circulation and they are no longer as special as they used to be.

From around 90 shiny listings to close to over 400 shinies in one year is hughe.

A lot of rare shinies (mr mime, jynx, kanga, skitty, relicanth, farfetch...) are no longer desired.

The rarity of a shiny no longer means that the shiny is worth a decent amount. A trader nowadays, must accept a loss of 50-70% in order to sell it.

 

On a daily basis, shinies that are worth 200m+ are found by the wave of new players. Some of those shinies have not been found in months/years.

Slowly the super rare and desired shinies are also losing in significance.

 

The demand is simply no as high anymore and shinies (some faster then others) lose that symbol of achievement, attention and wealth.

It's hard to imagine how many shinies would be in circulation, if shiny breeding wouldn't exist. That was one solid attempt to lower the amount of shinies which exist in MMO.

 

In my opinion, a fair way to prevent more shiny dumping is to put a ribbon on each caught OT shiny from now on.

This ribbon would act similar to a "gift ribbon". However, the player has the oppertunity to get rid of the ribbon, if he manages to complete all the regions.

At least it would give unexpirenced players time to inform themselves of the actual value, rather then linking it in chat and getting confronted by numerous players (I am no saint myself).

Less shinies would be listed in GTL overtime (unless another wave joins MMO) as the player is forced to finish all regions before being able to trade/list it.

 

Just a random info, but for the first time, MMO will experience the 100,000th GTL listing.

The amount of GTL listings gives a very rough idea of the growth, of the playerbase.

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29 minutes ago, Terresa said:

[...]

From around 90 shiny listings to close to over 400 shinies in one year is hughe.

[...]

The amount of GTL listings gives a very rough idea of the growth, of the playerbase.

As you said so yourself, the maybe risen nominal amount of shinies found simply reflects a grown playerbase.

The ratio of (rare) shinies found/active players might still be the same.
I'd also like to add that using the GTL listings as an indicator for the quantity of shiny pokemon is obscure and doesn't provide comparability, as

  • only pokemon/items that are not sold stay in the GTL
  • the mechanic how a listing stays in the GTL has been changed
  • the maximum fee for a GTL listing has been capped to 25k, influencing especially listings of shiny pokemon

 

48 minutes ago, Terresa said:

A lot of rare shinies [...] are no longer desired.

[...]

On a daily basis, shinies that are worth 200m+ are found by the wave of new players. Some of those shinies have not been found in months/years.

Slowly the super rare and desired shinies are also losing in significance.

[...]

The demand is simply no as high anymore and shinies (some faster then others) lose that symbol of achievement, attention and wealth.

It's hard to imagine how many shinies would be in circulation, if shiny breeding wouldn't exist.

Shiny value being volatile and influenced by a changing desire is inherently part of the (shiny) business.

The risk to invest in a "rare" shiny that might eventually not stay "rare" was always something you had to consider.
Isn't it an inevitability that "rare" shinies will be found again as the numer of encounters will simply rise - be it due to time or due to increased player activity?
This does not necessarly justify any need for action.

 

1 hour ago, Terresa said:

In my opinion, a fair way to prevent more shiny dumping is to put a ribbon on each caught OT shiny from now on.

This ribbon would act similar to a "gift ribbon". However, the player has the oppertunity to get rid of the ribbon, if he manages to complete all the regions.

At least it would give unexpirenced players time to inform themselves of the actual value, rather then linking it in chat and getting confronted by numerous players (I am no saint myself).

Less shinies would be listed in GTL overtime (unless another wave joins MMO) as the player is forced to finish all regions before being able to trade/list it.

Temporarily preventing players from selling their shinies is an option. In fact, we did have this before with (possibly) shiny starters being untradeable until they reached level 25. Eventually this has been changed to the current state where the gifted starters may simply not become shiny anymore. Correspondingly, your suggestion could also be altered, making it impossible for new player to actually encounter a shiny until they reached a certain point of progress (at the same time ensuring new players don't encounter a shiny before they have the means to catch them/giving less reason for complaints that "newer" players find shinies easier/...).


Auction house
To enable players to get the best price for their shiny, I still believe the mentioned implementation of an 'auction house' is the more helpful/important part.
It would also make statements like this obsolete:

41 minutes ago, Terresa said:

A trader nowadays, must accept a loss of 50-70% in order to sell it.

If the person who found a shiny is able to auction it,

  • he/she will get the maximum price possible on the market
  • that price will be paid by the player who wants to keep the shiny or use it (up via breeding), not resell it (as there is no one else who would pay more)
  • there is no "loss" of an in-betweener that needs to be considered
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