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Bearminator

Team Tournament May (26th Saturday)

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When NU? I want to ingrain terror on hearts with my Parasect >:v

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gbwead   

I just want to clarify something regarding the usage movements. Right now, we work with a 3 month cycle for usage movements. For month 1 and month 2, the cut-off point for pokemon moving up is 6.7% and the cut-off point for pokemon moving down is 1.7%. For month 3, the cut-off point for pokemon moving up and down is 4.36%. The objective of the 3 month cycle for usage movements is to get more stable tiers and not have pokemons changing tier each month arbitrarily. So, the fact there was no usage movements in NU is because we want NU to get more stable and not that the tier is inherently stable. If we used the 4.36% cut-off, NU would be unrecognizable.

I'm personally opposed to adding NU to the tiers rotation for TT the same way I am opposed to Doubles remaining in the tiers rotation for TT. The only tiers with decent competition are OU and UU to some degree. I don't think the other tiers are stable enough. My understanding is that the current rotation is OU2/UU/Doubles, so we have OU2 in 2 out of 3 TTs, UU in 2 out of 3 TTs and Dubs ins 2 out of 3 TTs. If NU was added to the rotation, we would then have OU2/UU/Dubs/NU, so OU2 and UU would only be in 1 out of 2 TTs which is terrible considering those are the best tiers right now with a much stronger competitive scene.

 

For me, in order to build a good NU tier, we need to give more representation to the higher tiers so that NU becomes more stable and then it would be a viable option for TT.

 

tl;dr: no Dubs or NU for TT for now plz

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RysPicz   
5 minutes ago, gbwead said:

tl;dr: no Dubs or NU for TT for now plz

metronome and triples, time to shine!

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Havsha   
2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I just want to clarify something regarding the usage movements. Right now, we work with a 3 month cycle for usage movements. For month 1 and month 2, the cut-off point for pokemon moving up is 6.7% and the cut-off point for pokemon moving down is 1.7%. For month 3, the cut-off point for pokemon moving up and down is 4.36%. The objective of the 3 month cycle for usage movements is to get more stable tiers and not have pokemons changing tier each month arbitrarily. So, the fact there was no usage movements in NU is because we want NU to get more stable and not that the tier is inherently stable. If we used the 4.36% cut-off, NU would be unrecognizable.

I'm personally opposed to adding NU to the tiers rotation for TT the same way I am opposed to Doubles remaining in the tiers rotation for TT. The only tiers with decent competition are OU and UU to some degree. I don't think the other tiers are stable enough. My understanding is that the current rotation is OU2/UU/Doubles, so we have OU2 in 2 out of 3 TTs, UU in 2 out of 3 TTs and Dubs ins 2 out of 3 TTs. If NU was added to the rotation, we would then have OU2/UU/Dubs/NU, so OU2 and UU would only be in 1 out of 2 TTs which is terrible considering those are the best tiers right now with a much stronger competitive scene.

 

For me, in order to build a good NU tier, we need to give more representation to the higher tiers so that NU becomes more stable and then it would be a viable option for TT.

 

tl;dr: no Dubs or NU for TT for now plz

May you please enlighten me on the reasons why you believe NU to be unstable? Ive had a fair amount of experience participating and spectating NU tournaments, as well as speaking with the people within the NU community. I would love to learn the logic that is guiding your statement. Is this 6.7% and 1.7% exclusive for merely NU? If not, how can it hold such implications for just NU but not OU or UU? As far as I have seen the NU meta game seems no more broken than that of OU or UU. The argument about the tier rotations of OU2/UU/Dubs/NU seems to rely on the fact that we should continue to keep OU2 within the rotation, however I dont believe that this fits the purpose of TTs which is meant to test teams on every tier not just a select few. Perhaps the perception of NU would not be so negative should it be allowed to exist within the TT rotation. I am genuinely interested to hear your reasons why you believe NU to be unstable at the moment, from my experience its a tier that accommodates the most variety in play-styles at the moment

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gbwead   
10 hours ago, Havsha said:

May you please enlighten me on the reasons why you believe NU to be unstable? Ive had a fair amount of experience participating and spectating NU tournaments, as well as speaking with the people within the NU community. I would love to learn the logic that is guiding your statement. Is this 6.7% and 1.7% exclusive for merely NU? If not, how can it hold such implications for just NU but not OU or UU? As far as I have seen the NU meta game seems no more broken than that of OU or UU. The argument about the tier rotations of OU2/UU/Dubs/NU seems to rely on the fact that we should continue to keep OU2 within the rotation, however I dont believe that this fits the purpose of TTs which is meant to test teams on every tier not just a select few. Perhaps the perception of NU would not be so negative should it be allowed to exist within the TT rotation. I am genuinely interested to hear your reasons why you believe NU to be unstable at the moment, from my experience its a tier that accommodates the most variety in play-styles at the moment

Imo, TT should be about testing teams in every competitive tier and the competitive scene in NU just isn't anywhere near what it should be in order for NU to get a spot in TT. UU is somewhat of a mess right now; several offensive and defensive threats are very close to being BL for various reasons. If UU is unstable, there is no way NU can possibly be better since the NU tier is based on UU usage. Yes, the same cut-off points are used for every tier, but that doesn't change the fact that by design OU will always be more stable than UU and UU will always be more stable than NU. I personally haven't seen any decent NU discussion in game, on the forums or on discord. Forcing people to play NU will help the NU competitive, but will take away a lot of hype out of TT that are already pretty meh whenever we end up with Doubles in the rotation. Just give it time imo. 

 

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Havsha   
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Imo, TT should be about testing teams in every competitive tier and the competitive scene in NU just isn't anywhere near what it should be in order for NU to get a spot in TT. UU is somewhat of a mess right now; several offensive and defensive threats are very close to being BL for various reasons. If UU is unstable, there is no way NU can possibly be better since the NU tier is based on UU usage. Yes, the same cut-off points are used for every tier, but that doesn't change the fact that by design OU will always be more stable than UU and UU will always be more stable than NU. I personally haven't seen any decent NU discussion in game, on the forums or on discord. Forcing people to play NU will help the NU competitive, but will take away a lot of hype out of TT that are already pretty meh whenever we end up with Doubles in the rotation. Just give it time imo. 

 

-Competitive nature of NU, this would simply improve with time and actual tournaments/TT rotation(See all the arguments I have laid our below)

-The several offense and defensive threats that are very close to being BL, what are these threats? By BL, I assume youre meaning BL2(NUBL) From my experience the amount of offensive and especially defensive threats that are worthy of being banned from NU is very minimal if any, so I am curious to hear what pokemon are currently being considered broken within in the tier.

-I acknowledge that the stability of the tier above does have a profound influence on the tier below, however, the tier changed for UU do no necessarily entail that NU is in a current unstable state. The presence of powerful offensive and defensive threat within UU would serve to curve and shape the usage of certain pokemon, consequently causing pokemon to fall out of the tier and into NU or alternatively cause NU pokemon that act as  "specialist" at checking the threats to rise into UU. Neither of these two things happened in the last tier change. Even if this is a product of the different percentages used, it would not change the fact that  the instability in UU has consequently had no influence over the NU tier

-In regards to the discussion of NU, I should elloborate that I have made an effort to go around and ask various people about the tier, perhaps it is in the minority, but that in and of it self is a consequence of NU being neglected as a tier. Should NU be added to the TT rotation I believe you would find that the amount of discussion around the tier would rapidly increase.

-Yes, adding NU to the tt rotation would force people play NU and help the NU tier grow competively, this just seems like a very good consequence to me. I do not believe it would destroy any hype what so ever, in fact, I believe the presence of NU within the TT would only serve to increase the amount of hype within TTs as it would allow NU players who have been sitting on the side line to join in on the action. Furthermore, the loss of OU2 would not cut any individuals from the rotation, as they all still can represent their respective team in OU1. TTs are designed to show the game which team is the best at every tier. At the moment all the TT is doing is illustrate who is the best at OU

-I understand that my arguments and complaints will likely not change this format of this current TT, but nonetheless I believe there has been a blatant disregard of NU by the staff in regards to both tournaments and especially the TT. the NU community has consistantly commented asking for NU to be added to the rotation, but these comments are ignored with the whole "maybe next month" routine. Only by making such a scene do I believe it is possible that any actual effort and higher level of dicussion about the tier in regards to the TT  can be had.

 

 

Tl;dr: NU doesn't seem to have any threats that are busted, I encourage anyone who disagrees to correct me. While UU does have influence over NU the fact that there were 0 changes indicate that it hasn't had any influence. TT is about all tiers not just OU. NU in the TT would generate more hype than a second OU tier

Edited by Havsha

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Zymogen   
Posted (edited)

I don’t really care whether NU is added or not but can I just point out that, for an extended period of time, pre-update UU was easily the stablest tier out of the 3 by an absolute mile. So imo the logic of NU < UU < OU with regards to stability really doesn’t fly

 

It may apply now as the true nature of each of the tiers is yet to precipitate, but I don’t think you can use it as a general rule of thumb at all 

Edited by Zymogen

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gbwead   
5 hours ago, Havsha said:

-The several offense and defensive threats that are very close to being BL, what are these threats? By BL, I assume youre meaning BL2(NUBL) From my experience the amount of offensive and especially defensive threats that are worthy of being banned from NU is very minimal if any, so I am curious to hear what pokemon are currently being considered broken within in the tier.

No, I mean BL because I was talking about UU.

 

5 hours ago, Havsha said:

-I acknowledge that the stability of the tier above does have a profound influence on the tier below, however, the tier changed for UU do no necessarily entail that NU is in a current unstable state. The presence of powerful offensive and defensive threat within UU would serve to curve and shape the usage of certain pokemon, consequently causing pokemon to fall out of the tier and into NU or alternatively cause NU pokemon that act as  "specialist" at checking the threats to rise into UU. Neither of these two things happened in the last tier change. Even if this is a product of the different percentages used, it would not change the fact that  the instability in UU has consequently had no influence over the NU tier

-In regards to the discussion of NU, I should elloborate that I have made an effort to go around and ask various people about the tier, perhaps it is in the minority, but that in and of it self is a consequence of NU being neglected as a tier. Should NU be added to the TT rotation I believe you would find that the amount of discussion around the tier would rapidly increase.

If the 4.36% usage cut-off point was used last month, we would have had several usage movements. UU --> NU: Aerodactyl, Roserade, Nidoqueen, Bisharp and Porygon2. NU --> UU: Sigilyph, and Medicham. Those are the ones I spotted right away, but there are probably more. It's not because there was no usage movement this month that people are blind and they don't know that NU is going to severely change. NU is also unstable because players have shown little interest in the tier. When I watch people play NU, I only see old players recycling their old mons, not people actually teambuilding and breeding brand new NU teams. The competitive scene just isn't there yet.

 

5 hours ago, Havsha said:

-Yes, adding NU to the tt rotation would force people play NU and help the NU tier grow competively, this just seems like a very good consequence to me. I do not believe it would destroy any hype what so ever, in fact, I believe the presence of NU within the TT would only serve to increase the amount of hype within TTs as it would allow NU players who have been sitting on the side line to join in on the action. Furthermore, the loss of OU2 would not cut any individuals from the rotation, as they all still can represent their respective team in OU1. TTs are designed to show the game which team is the best at every tier. At the moment all the TT is doing is illustrate who is the best at OU

I hope you realise that the OU competitive scene is significantly larger than any other scene in MMO. Removing OU2 means a lot of players no longer get to play TT just because a few NU players want to compete among themselves. I would not even see the point in signing up for a TT where the tiers are OU/Dubs/NU. 

 

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Havsha   
15 minutes ago, gbwead said:

If the 4.36% usage cut-off point was used last month, we would have had several usage movements. UU --> NU: Aerodactyl, Roserade, Nidoqueen, Bisharp and Porygon2. NU --> UU: Sigilyph, and Medicham. Those are the ones I spotted right away, but there are probably more. It's not because there was no usage movement this month that people are blind and they don't know that NU is going to severely change

I would be willing to concede should those changes have taken place, NU would not be stable, however, as TC increased the cut-off percentage, rightfully so until they get around to making an actual BL2, these changes have no bearing on the current state of NU. There is no sudden presence of Aerodactyl or Bisharp to destabilize the tier as the tier currently stands. And once the TC work out a BL2 (Which honestly they should have been able to do by now, or at the very least have a comprehensive draft of one) these pokemon will never be able to come into NU to destabilize it

 

17 minutes ago, gbwead said:

NU is also unstable because players have shown little interest in the tier. When I watch people play NU, I only see old players recycling their old mons, not people actually teambuilding and breeding brand new NU teams. The competitive scene just isn't there yet.

You're basically trapping NU into a cycle in which it is unstable because of lack of interest, but it will never gain interest because of the perception of instability. The point of old mons isnt necessarily an indication that people are not breeding and using new pokemon, I would argue that it is largely a consequence if the viability the old pokemon have, and yes perhaps a lack of commitment, but this does not in anyway act as evidence of instability. It is not as if people are not using a pokemon like darumaka, because defensive rapidash is too good, because the tier is unstable. It just isnt as viable as the new gen pokemon are in higher tiers. It seems to me that new pokemon will only start being bred at a quicker pace when the NU tier starts becoming consequential, i.e. when it is in the tt rotation. Thus, the exclude NU on the basis that its not enough by the general community is condemning it to a cycle where it will continue to get neglected. I do understand your point that it is not as competitive as OU at the moment as a consequence of this, but I do not believe that this is an argument of instability. Basically, when NU starts being used as an actual consequential tier, the level of competitiveness within the tier will increase. To ignore NU because its less competitive than OU is not a commentary not he tiers stability, but rather player mentality

 

25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I hope you realise that the OU competitive scene is significantly larger than any other scene in MMO. Removing OU2 means a lot of players no longer get to play TT just because a few NU players want to compete among themselves. I would not even see the point in signing up for a TT where the tiers are OU/Dubs/NU. 

 

I understand perfectly well that the OU competitive scene is by any account the largest scene any MMO, OU will always be the largest competitive scene of just about any pokemon sphere. However, merely by removing OU2 does not remove OU altogether, instead it wil create internal competition within teams to fight for that OU representive spot. There are plenty of our tournaments for OU players to get their opportunity. TTs should be a test of a teams ability to compete in every tier, if a TT is just OU/UU/OU2 then all the team needs are talented OU players. Thus, it would be a reflections of the teams prowess in the tier of OU, not an overall reflection of the teams skill in all the tiers.This constant reference to the small NU community may be true, however the only way this community will grow is if the tier is not ignored and is added to the rotation of events such as the TT. Through this competition can breed the development of the tier.

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Chjul19   

Champions League time, RIP

 

On 5/13/2018 at 4:50 AM, MknsZblex said:

where is OscarFail ? :x bad poster

Dead

Spoiler

SIA #1

 

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On 5/12/2018 at 8:10 PM, Bearminator said:

 

Prize:

The winning team will receive:
star_off.gif 1m for each 3 winners

 

A little change for our Team Tournaments. Since we  believe it's big effort to win TT, we will increase prize for now.

 

As for time being same as champions league: please, don't tell me you don't play while watching something. 

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DoubleJ   
1 hour ago, Bearminator said:

A little change for our Team Tournaments. Since we  believe it's big effort to win TT, we will increase prize for now.

Ayeeeeeeeeeee HYPE

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3 hours ago, Bearminator said:

As for time being same as champions league: please, don't tell me you don't play while watching something. 

omg bad staff

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6 hours ago, Bearminator said:
On 5/12/2018 at 8:10 PM, Bearminator said:

 

Prize:

The winning team will receive:
star_off.gif 1m for each 3 winners

 

A little change for our Team Tournaments. Since we  believe it's big effort to win TT, we will increase prize for now.

lf team , can carry dubs 

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DoubleJ   
10 minutes ago, MaatthewMLG said:

lf team , can carry dubs 

Hi.

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