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OrangeManiac

PokeMMO Battle Association - Discussion thread - Also donation thread

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Posted (edited)

You know what? Let's get this ball rolling.

 

 

What is this thread?

 

DrButler decided to be MVP and make an initial thread to try to touch the waters whether people could be interested of a "Global Battle Association" type event in PokeMMO. The response so far has been positive so in an agreement with DrButler I am opening a thread to start a discussion for the rules of this format.

 

Discussion consists but it's not limited to:

 

- Tiering of the Pokemon involved in this format

- The overall ruleset of the tournament

- The progression of the tournament series

 

 

What are the basic rules of this format?

 

This tournament series will open with an draft, where every Pokemon specie is open to be drafted. When said Pokemon has been drafted, no other player may get that specific Pokemon for their team. After draft, the battlers will battle every week with teams that are made out of their drafted Pokemon.

 

To give a clear example of this, you can watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS4LkgpSpD4

 

 

 

What are the MMO exclusive features to this format?

 

Rather than being a small league just for only 16 players, everyone up to 48 players are allowed to join while the PokeMMO Battle Association will be split into smaller leagues/divisions. Each divisionwill have its own draft pool from where the Pokemon are drafted. The players will battle against the people in their division but the top 2 players from each league will make it to the "final tournament" to battle for the title of "Grand Champion of the PokeMMO Battle Association", which contains the biggest share of the prize pool.

 

(This all is just my suggestion, everything is up for debate.)

 

 

How does the tournament series progress?

 

After draft, there will be played 6-7 rounds of Swiss inside the league and the best of each league will qualify to the final stage.

 

 

Who will be hosting this?

 

I'll volunteer to host this tournament, however I will require some back up with this because I cannot be available in daily basis which is what these tournament series need. If you're willing to help me with this, I'd be happy if you let me know. I wouldn't mind like 3-4 co-hosts for this format. I see no problem with a host also participating as a player in this format as there is no advantage to gain and really no punishments to be given, besides activity losses.

 

 

How does the Pokemon draft work?

 

Every player starts the draft with 1000 credits. With these credits the players will purchase a team of 8 Pokemon max (6 minimum), which are the Pokemon they use to battle in this format. You may not purchase a Pokemon someone else already has in your division.

 

Here below are the suggested "tierings" for each Pokemon. These are all just my opinion based and I would encourage discussion whether you feel like a certain Pokemon is tiered too high or too low. If you want to agree with someone about a certain nomination of a Pokemon for certain tier, hitting the like button for a suggestion post is an easy way to do it. Keep in mind these costs are made based on their expected viability in a mixed tier environment, rather than in OU environment.

 

The difference I'm making is that there is no limitation how many Pokemon a player has from each tier. Only limitation is that the credit limit may not be exceeded.

 

Tier 1 (cost: 300 credits per Pokemon)

 

Spoiler

Blissey

Chansey

Conkeldurr

Dragonite

Dugtrio

Excadrill

Ferrothorn

Gengar

Gyarados

Hydreigon

Mamoswine

Metagross

Reuniclus

Salamence

Scizor

Skarmory

Tyranitar

Volcarona

Wobbuffet

 

 

Tier 2 (cost: 250 credits per Pokemon)


 

Spoiler

Chandelure

Cloyster

Darmanitan

Gliscor

Haxorus

Hippowdon

Kingdra

Lucario

Magnezone

Mantine

Mienshao

Milotic

Pelipper

Porygon-Z

Porygon2

Snorlax

Starmie

Swampert

 

 

Tier 3 (cost: 200 credits per Pokemon)


 

Spoiler

Aerodactyl

Alakazam

Arcanine

Azumarill

Bisharp

Breloom

Cofagrigus

Dusclops

Flygon

Forretress

Gligar

Heracross

Jellicent

Jolteon

Kabutops

Rhyperior
Roserade

Scrafty
Tentacruel

Togekiss

Torkoal

Vaporeon

Weavile

Weezing

 

 

Tier 4 (cost: 150 credits per Pokemon)


 

Spoiler

Blaziken

Bronzong

Clefable

Crobat

Dusknoir

Espeon

Galvantula

Gigalith

Houndoom

Krookodile

Machamp

Mandibuzz

Medicham

Sawsbuck

Slowbro

Typhlosion

Umbreon

Quagsire

Victreebel

Venusaur

Yanmega

 

 

Tier 5 (cost: 50 credits per Pokemon)


 

Spoiler

Absol

Altaria

Ambipom

Archeops

Armaldo

Bellossom

Blastoise

Braviary

Carracosta

Charizard

Claydol
Cradily

Donphan

Durant
Eelektross

Exeggcutor

Ferroseed

Froslass

Gallade

Gardevoir

Golem

Golurk

Gorebyss

Haunter

Hitmontop

Honchkrow

Kangaskhan

Kingler
Lanturn

Linoone

Ludicolo

Magneton

Manectric

Miltank

Mismagius

Ninetales
Omastar

Pikachu

Rhydon

Sceptile

Scyther

Sigilyph
Slaking
Slowking

Steelix

Tauros

Tangrowth

Venomoth

Vileplume

Zangoose

 

 

Free:

 

Spoiler

Everything else.

 

 

*Chansey, Dusclops and Porygon2 are listed higher than they should be currently but it's to ensure that the users of these Pokemon wouldn't get their Pokemon value raised by a mile if Eviolite would be implemented, so their preliminary value is based on assuming we would have Eviolite in the game. I'm willing to discuss if any other Pokemon deserves a higher ranking because of this but I feel as Eviolite is the biggest thing that could skew the rankings a lot.

 

 

Comments, concerns, opinions?

 

Let me have them.

 

 

Donations?

 

I will donate 1 million additional Pokeyen for every 5 million the community will donate to this event. This means everything you donate will be transferred to prize pool as 120%. Let that motivate you to donate.

 

 

Current donations:

 

3 mil by me

2 mil by DrButler

2 mil by JJ

2 mil by itsSara

1 mil by RacheLucario

1 mil by Parke

1 mil by StriderXD

650k by aftershocker

500k by Bartolomew

500k by SweeTforU

500k by Bearminator

400k by BlueBreath

250k by ElCoolio

200k by HXIN

100k by REEVS

 

 

= 15 mil total currently.

 

+ The choice of 5x31 competitive Pokemon from the winner's drafted team, donated by Razimove

 

Donation goal: 15+ mil

 

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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If this is gonna be a thing I would like to know people's opinion on Conkeldurr. I would say the most common counters for this thing would be Reuniclus and Weezing (with some Salamence on the side). But obviously these picks can only be brought by three other players and the Conkeldurr player can neutralise the effectiveness of Salamence by running Ice Punch and can beat a Reuniclus switch in by running CB Payback.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 172-204 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

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Just now, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

If this is gonna be a thing I would like to know people's opinion on Conkeldurr. I would say the most common counters for this thing would be Reuniclus and Weezing (with some Salamence on the side). But obviously these picks can only be brought by three other players and the Conkeldurr player can neutralise the effectiveness of Salamence by running Ice Punch and can beat a Reuniclus switch in by running CB Payback.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 172-204 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Well, we discussed about this in PM but I guess I'll voice up here as well.

 

I kinda have to agree that if there's some Pokemon that might deserve a straight up ban from this format, it's Conkeldurr. Bulk Up + Drain Punch is such a devastating combo that basically nothing will wall it except some very specific counters in OU tier. The most some walls can do is "Haze" but even that is by no means an answer. If a player isn't able to draft one of the rare Conkeldurr counters, well, they will be up for a wild ride if they face one.

 

There's some other Pokemon that could in theory be a bit strong against lower tier Pokemon as well but for example against Dragons there's bunch of bulky lower tier water-types you could draft for almost free to keep Dragon-types in check. Conkeldurr just doesn't have those counters when Weezing and Reuniclus gets picked. I'm looking forward for further opinions whether Conkeldurr is too much for this format.

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pachima   
Posted (edited)

Very well. First of all, props for Butler and Orange for coming up with this.

Second, my ideas:

1- "Mascots" - Our variety of mons for each pick is greatly reduced compared to the GBA series. For this reason, during the drafting picks, the ones that draft later will get severely hindered compared to the ones that are earlier to pick. I would vote for a "mascot" pokemon for each player. Such mascot would be something each player would report to the host. The only difference between "mascots" and every other drafted pokemon is that the former isnt limited to one within the same league. (Ex: Player A  picked Scizor, then player C can also pick Scizor). All the other picked mons must follow the rules and not be identique to anything picked previously, including "mascots" - Basically, only a mascot of a player can be similar to other mascot of other player.

2- "Hype shall never die" - I dont know how you guys are planning to do the draft, but after seeing part of the linked video, I realized there is potential for some hype within the draft. We should make the draft similar to PSL, where a lot of people are in and can discuss and argue such picks chosen. 

3- "RNG picks" - As far as I know, the pick order will be entirely random. My suggestion is making every player declare the tier of the mon they want to draft. Lower tiered declarations will have higher priority for that round. (EX: Player A declares tier 2, player B declares tier 1- Player A drafts before player B. Player in the same priority mark will get their order rngd however). Also, since this promotes not so many tier 1 picks on the first round, last tier 1 picks will have a wider variety of mons too choose from, in theory.

4- Soon tm.

Feel free to discuss.

EDIT: Just watched @xXBlu3BreathXx post, and the 1st suggestion kinda helps against some high tier picks that might become too strong to handle with the restrictions.

Edited by pachima

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28 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Payback (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 172-204 (79.2 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Turns out I wasn't aware that payback did not double in power on a switch in from gen 5+. Regardless Reuniclus still gets 2hko'd with a some prior damage. 

 

12 minutes ago, pachima said:

1- "Mascots" - Our variety of mons for each pick is greatly reduced compared to the GBA series. For this reason, during the drafting picks, the ones that draft later will get severely hindered compared to the ones that are earlier to pick. I would vote for a "mascot" pokemon for each player. Such mascot would be something each player would report to the host. The only difference between "mascots" and every other drafted pokemon is that the former isnt limited to one within the same league. (Ex: Player A  picked Scizor, then player C can also pick Scizor). All the other picked mons must follow the rules and not be identique to anything picked previously, including "mascots" - Basically, only a mascot of a player can be similar to other mascot of other player.

EDIT: Just watched @xXBlu3BreathXx post, and the 1st suggestion kinda helps against some tier 1 picks that might become too strong to handle with the restrictions.

I like the idea of mascots that anyone can pick up, but I disagree that it will help with broken Pokemon in this format. Everyone would either draft the broken Pokemon or the 1/2 counters to it. Obviously, if there are multiple broken Pokemon it may lead to more issues.

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DrButler   
1 hour ago, pachima said:

3- "RNG picks" - As far as I know, the pick order will be entirely random. My suggestion is making every player declare the tier of the mon they want to draft. Lower tiered declarations will have higher priority for that round. (EX: Player A declares tier 2, player B declares tier 1- Player A drafts before player B. Player in the same priority mark will get their order rngd however). Also, since this promotes not so many tier 1 picks on the first round, last tier 1 picks will have a wider variety of mons too choose from, in theory.

picking first is an advantage, but its also a disadvantage. i guess picking strategies come into play here. lets say you pick a top tier mon first;  a) people know you got it and can counterpick and b) you pick a lower tier later on, so that means that for getting that power pick in the top tier you have to deal with a less powerful pick in a lower tier. thats what make this format so attractive in my opinion. theres stuff like conk, that needs to be adressed in some way, but every tier offers certain power picks.  by having the last pick picking first in the second round of the draft this disadvantage can be softened up. looking at it this way picking first doesnt sound too good to me anymore.

 

the way you suggest the draft player a will pick first, but from a lower tier, which just results in player b having the stronger mon and the chance to counterpick, which kinda defeats the purpose of paying that price for picking from a top tier. id just have a set order of people picking no matter which tier they are picking from, because, unless im missing out on something i dont see how advantages are gained if we go a,b,c,d,d,c,b,a.

 

kinda repetitive - engrish.

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

1- "Mascots" - Our variety of mons for each pick is greatly reduced compared to the GBA series. For this reason, during the drafting picks, the ones that draft later will get severely hindered compared to the ones that are earlier to pick. I would vote for a "mascot" pokemon for each player. Such mascot would be something each player would report to the host. The only difference between "mascots" and every other drafted pokemon is that the former isnt limited to one within the same league. (Ex: Player A  picked Scizor, then player C can also pick Scizor). All the other picked mons must follow the rules and not be identique to anything picked previously, including "mascots" - Basically, only a mascot of a player can be similar to other mascot of other player.

sounds funky, but just beats the purpose of having a well prepared draft imo.

 

1 hour ago, pachima said:

2- "Hype shall never die" - I dont know how you guys are planning to do the draft, but after seeing part of the linked video, I realized there is potential for some hype within the draft. We should make the draft similar to PSL, where a lot of people are in and can discuss and argue such picks chosen. 

!

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Posted (edited)

DrButler started to get the donation train rolling and donated me 2 million PokeYen for this event. Also thank you to itsSara for 500k donation to my events which she allowed me to use as I see the best so I decided to use that donation to this event. I donated my first million for this but as I said - for every 5 million the community donates I will donate another additional million from my own pocket.

 

Because the prizes will go to individuals, I feel as we don't need as big prize pool as PSL does to start the first season of this. However, I am aiming for around 10 million prize pool to start this event, currently we're sitting at 3,5 million. Let's get the donations coming!

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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Posted (edited)

Orange this was the type of event I talked to you about a couple weeks ago looks hype

also I'll look at tiering as well

i would also add a minimum number of Pokemon required 

Edited by Artemiseta

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2 minutes ago, Artemiseta said:

Orange this was the type of event I talked to you about a couple weeks ago looks hype

Ah yeah man, I was a little bit busy to fully focus to understand what was your exact idea but that's awesome if you were considering a similar type of an event.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Artemiseta said:

i would also add a minimum number of Pokemon required 

Yeah, that would be 6 so you have a full party each game.

 

Added that in the OP though.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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Tbh idk if anything is necessarily banworthy. You essentially know your opponents team before you battle. Finding niche pokemon to cover holes and adjusting your teams strategy/playstyle seems like part of the fun. 

 

If anything maybe reuniclus is too much but eh

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2 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Tbh idk if anything is necessarily banworthy. You essentially know your opponents team before you battle. Finding niche pokemon to cover holes and adjusting your teams strategy/playstyle seems like part of the fun. 

 

If anything maybe reuniclus is too much but eh

Yeah I did consider Reuniclus a possible iffy Pokemon too but I thought it at least can have niche picks for Pursuit Trap role to annoy it.

 

But I'm very open to the idea of no bans whatsoever, so let's see.

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Thinking about it you could potentially have a free agent/waiver wire type system, similar to fantasy football neva4get i was robbed where people could swap pokemon each week for available ones. Obviously you would only be able to swap a tier 1 mon for a tier 1 mon, a tier 2 for a tier 2 etc. to prevent people tanking late in the season and not trading up free mons for leftover tier 1 mons. 

 

Would also have to set rosters in stone pre finals cause different groups wouldnt work together

 

idk just a thought

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Kizhaz   

I'm curious why choosing to take the auction route rather than the standard draft of 3 from each tier. Either way looks good and I'll enjoy watching it unfold

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kizhaz said:

I'm curious why choosing to take the auction route rather than the standard draft of 3 from each tier. Either way looks good and I'll enjoy watching it unfold

Did I... use a word auction somewhere.. I did. Multiple times. That's entirely a mistake, this whole thing was supposed to be fully a "draft" of the Pokemon rather than an auction, hence the prices of each Pokemon were listed. Thanks to PSL I threw that word in there forgetting what auction actually meant instead of using the correct word "draft". I'll fix the OP.

 

6 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Thinking about it you could potentially have a free agent/waiver wire type system, similar to fantasy football neva4get i was robbed where people could swap pokemon each week for available ones. Obviously you would only be able to swap a tier 1 mon for a tier 1 mon, a tier 2 for a tier 2 etc. to prevent people tanking late in the season and not trading up free mons for leftover tier 1 mons. 

 

Would also have to set rosters in stone pre finals cause different groups wouldnt work together

 

idk just a thought

Even though the idea could be nice, I see the biggest problem that with so much freedom the host will have way too much workload to do to update on a log which player has which Pokemon now. I'm planning to allow at least up to 48 players to join this event and I think that's a little bit too much work to do. That's why I have to keep things simple.

Edited by OrangeManiac

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I read it in the op but food for thought would be having requirements to mons for example 

1 tier 1

1 tier 2

2 mons from tiers 3,4,5

and then using credits for the free slots where it is whatever tier and have 3 slots to fill with 700 credits or somethings

(how the gba and npa work with different numbers)

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6 minutes ago, Artemiseta said:

I read it in the op but food for thought would be having requirements to mons for example 

1 tier 1

1 tier 2

2 mons from tiers 3,4,5

and then using credits for the free slots where it is whatever tier and have 3 slots to fill with 700 credits or somethings

(how the gba and npa work with different numbers)

I had this in mind but in order to do this I would need to put the cost of Pokemon down. Consequently, that makes the value of first picks so much higher and the last ones to pick have very small amount of Pokemon to choose from while having to pay a lot for those Pokemon. I would have to make the tier pools much bigger in order to do this and I wouldn't have enough price tiers then. That's why my idea was that there is no requirements for how many from each tier you have. Your strategy could be to have 2 expensive mons + 4 cheap low tier fillers or optionally multiple tier 2-4 mons but no tier 1s and that's entirely up to the player to decide which is their way of drafting.

 

But this is just my idea behind it, I'm open to revamp this but my requirement for that would be that we make new tier pools and make them much larger.

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By the way, I'm looking for a player located in American region who would volunteer to overwatch the draft for American region leagues. After I get signups I will put the groups so that they are as close to each other's time zone as possible. This is so that setting up a draft time would be the easiest possible and the most people would have it on an optimal time of the day. This means that American draft would be way past midnight for me which will not suffice so please let me know if you volunteer to overwatch the American drafts when we get this thing rolling.

 

Thank you.

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