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xXBlu3BreathXx

Can you buff competitive prizes?

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Posted (edited)
Hello everyone, I wish to address some issues with how PokeMMO's official tournament prize system works, as it is the prizes are severely lacklustre.
 
Current problems with official prizes:
  • Nobody wants competitive gift Pokemon (to some extent they do but these prizes are horrible and give no hype).
  • If we must have these shitty gift competitive Pokemon at least make them 6x31 now because we can give them a hidden power of choice and leave them as prizes for community combat events.
  • Fix the IV selection system to allow us to have an iv range of 0-31, this is important because it lets us take less damage from confusion on Pokemon which don't use the attack stat and lets slow Pokemon use gyro ball and trick room. In some rare cases an iv somewhere between 0 and 31 is needed to hit a specific stat, a good example is reducing life orb recoil.
  • >Cash prizes for official events are so small, with the amount you win from first you can make one or maybe two competitive Pokemon. Hardly worth the investment you put in for the tournament. I know you get to keep the Pokemon you have made but each Pokemon has varying levels of viability and you may need a lot of them to build specific teams, overall the workload is huge.
  • Shiny prizes should be competitive. There is no reason, legit none to keep these as useless trophies. You should be able to take pride in using your trophy in a competitive battle. There are only two reasons anyone would use them in a competitive environment 1) They are being used as a meme 2) The owner does not have one with better iv's (maybe because the cash payoffs from tournaments are low?)
  • Seasonal events should be the pinnacle of competitive play, to be fair the most recent one does have OK prizes but they do not reflect what should be given out. Again, 4x25 is a joke for any of these prizes and Dragonite/Salamence should have been options for 2nd place, 1st place should be reserved for something special like a shiny Volcarona/starter/Eevee. If 1st place doesn't get to earn that shiny through hard work then that is beyond fucked up when some random player gets one from pure RNG. I get that you want these shinies to be special, these events are the perfect place to give them out.
 
In conclusion, prizes need to be heavily buffed. I doubt you understand how difficult it is to win an official, let alone a seasonal in which you are up against the best players match after match. To be frank here, people only play official events because they are the only events being hosted (that are worth anything, even if it is of little worth). Look at the turn out for community combats and a lot of the higher profile names will have decided not to partake because it simply isn't worth the effort.
 
Thank you for reading!
Edited by xXBlu3BreathXx
fixed some mistakes

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suigin   

At the very least make the shinies 3x31, the only interesting one in this seasonal is the Mantine and even then it's held back by the fact that it will lose some bulk on one stat. The other two will lose a lot of implied power once they get scouted and before that the person who faces it will know it cannot be a solid hybrid set unless they somehow run 25 speed which is kind of bad for both mons. Hell I don't see a single reason why anyone would want the Dnite since in the far off future Multiscale will come out and that prize Dnite will gather dust in the PC forever.

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razimove   
2 hours ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:

Cash prizes for official events are so small, with the amount you win from first you can make one or maybe two competitive Pokemon. Hardly worth the investment you put in for the tournament. I know you get to keep the Pokemon you have made but each Pokemon has varying levels of viability and you may need a lot of them to build specific teams, overall the workload is huge.

Agree with everything you said, but not only this feels really small, people rather take RP than cash as cash is so unrewarding rn to take.

 

2 hours ago, suigin said:

prize Dnite will gather dust in the PC forever

I still have hopes you're wrong about this. Although yeah knowing how the act, they rather turn the entire playerbase against them, than provide a viable solution for them and us.

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Kizhaz   
31 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

@Desu

@Kyu

 

Please let us have a dialog on this, we would really appreciate your input regarding this case.

Kyu and Desu don't really have anything to do with it. >>Squirtle<< and Rachel would be the people to link

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RysPicz   
1 minute ago, Kizhaz said:

Kyu and Desu don't really have anything to do with it. >>Squirtle<< and Rachel would be the people to link

Good to know, thanks Kiz.

 

@RacheLucario ~~~~~~~~~~

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Kizhaz   
Just now, eredita said:

every time there is a tournament someone complains about the prize. i think its quite evident that it needs to be buffed. big buff.

Or people need to lower their expectations :^)

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RysPicz   
16 minutes ago, Kizhaz said:

Or people need to lower their expectations :^)

I wonder if you realise, how wrong this comment is, especially when it's coming from a member of staff?

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1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

I wonder if you realise, how wrong this comment is, especially when it's coming from a member of staff?

Well If that's the case why not explain why, instead of spouting ad hominem?

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Senile   
Just now, Darkshade said:

Well If that's the case why not explain why, instead of spouting ad hominem?

I don't understand why you felt this was appropriate? It wasn't really an attack on Kizhaz, but an attack on the incredulity of the statement, because the comment legitimately makes no sense.

 

I don't know how to tell you this, but you're making a game for the players. If the players don't feel something is worthwhile, then there's a reason they do so. This isn't an uncommon sentiment either, so the idea that players would just "lower their expectations", especially considering this system has been around for quite a while, is completely absurd.

 

The fact of the matter is, regardless of whether it is worthwhile or not from your perspective, if the players don't feel it's worthwhile, it really doesn't matter. You could sit here all day and lecture people about how worthwhile and well balanced prizes are right now from your perspective as a designer, but if the players don't feel that way and the game is suffering because of it, then obviously you need to reevaluate something in the system.

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eredita   

I don't understand why it's so hard to just give the people what they want?? It's hard enough to win a tournament make the reward worth it. Maybe people will actually show up to play the tournament. It's like you just completely ignore everything we say sometimes I don't understand the logic please become more open minded.

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Squirtle   
22 hours ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said:
Hello everyone, I wish to address some issues with how PokeMMO's official tournament prize system works, as it is the prizes are severely lacklustre.
 
Current problems with official prizes:
  • Nobody wants competitive gift Pokemon (to some extent they do but these prizes are horrible and give no hype).
  • If we must have these shitty gift competitive Pokemon at least make them 6x31 now because we can give them a hidden power of choice and leave them as prizes for community combat events.
  • Fix the IV selection system to allow us to have an iv range of 0-31, this is important because it lets us take less damage from confusion on Pokemon which don't use the attack stat and lets slow Pokemon use gyro ball and trick room. In some rare cases an iv somewhere between 0 and 31 is needed to hit a specific stat, a good example is reducing life orb recoil.
  • >Cash prizes for official events are so small, with the amount you win from first you can make one or maybe two competitive Pokemon. Hardly worth the investment you put in for the tournament. I know you get to keep the Pokemon you have made but each Pokemon has varying levels of viability and you may need a lot of them to build specific teams, overall the workload is huge.
  • Shiny prizes should be competitive. There is no reason, legit none to keep these as useless trophies. You should be able to take pride in using your trophy in a competitive battle. There are only two reasons anyone would use them in a competitive environment 1) They are being used as a meme 2) The owner does not have one with better iv's (maybe because the cash payoffs from tournaments are low?)
  • Seasonal events should be the pinnacle of competitive play, to be fair the most recent one does have OK prizes but they do not reflect what should be given out. Again, 4x25 is a joke for any of these prizes and Dragonite/Salamence should have been options for 2nd place, 1st place should be reserved for something special like a shiny Volcarona/starter/Eevee. If 1st place doesn't get to earn that shiny through hard work then that is beyond fucked up when some random player gets one from pure RNG. I get that you want these shinies to be special, these events are the perfect place to give them out.
 
In conclusion, prizes need to be heavily buffed. I doubt you understand how difficult it is to win an official, let alone a seasonal in which you are up against the best players match after match. To be frank here, people only play official events because they are the only events being hosted (that are worth anything, even if it is of little worth). Look at the turn out for community combats and a lot of the higher profile names will have decided not to partake because it simply isn't worth the effort.
 
Thank you for reading!

Hello BlueBreath,

 

I will answer some of your bullets although you most likely will not appreciate the responses.

 

1. I understand your opinion that you believe the non-shiny prizes to be subpar just because they are not shiny but that is the option we are providing to the host to go with. 

2. This will not be happening as we have stated in the past we believe these types of prizes provide too much economic value that affects the rest of the population. 

3. This is actually a request we can get behind and will be proposing it to the development team, Desu, to implement with other enhancements we are looking into in the automated PVP system in the future. Lots of things being worked on so I can't tell when this will be focused on.

4. I am going to have to disagree with this one we just don't see it the same way.

5. Not sure I can comment any further on that one.

6. I can understand your frustration on what you believe to above and beyond what traditional tournaments entail but overall I am not willing to provide an much greater prize pool for a seasonal than typical tournaments. In a season there is greater risk of failure but still greater reward just not as much as you have seen in the past.

 

We are discussing ways in which we can increase the prize package lets say without modifying what is currently given but I wont discuss in public until we flush it out.

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eredita   

Why are you so content with mediocrity? It blows my mind how you can put effort into something and it comes out alright and then you just leave it there. None of this makes sense. Just give us what we want. Make the customer satisfied. It's not even just the top players it's almost everyone.

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RysPicz   
1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

Hello BlueBreath,

 

I will answer some of your bullets although you most likely will not appreciate the responses.

 

1. I understand your opinion that you believe the non-shiny prizes to be subpar just because they are not shiny but that is the option we are providing to the host to go with. 

2. This will not be happening as we have stated in the past we believe these types of prizes provide too much economic value that affects the rest of the population. 

3. This is actually a request we can get behind and will be proposing it to the development team, Desu, to implement with other enhancements we are looking into in the automated PVP system in the future. Lots of things being worked on so I can't tell when this will be focused on.

4. I am going to have to disagree with this one we just don't see it the same way.

5. Not sure I can comment any further on that one.

6. I can understand your frustration on what you believe to above and beyond what traditional tournaments entail but overall I am not willing to provide an much greater prize pool for a seasonal than typical tournaments. In a season there is greater risk of failure but still greater reward just not as much as you have seen in the past.

 

We are discussing ways in which we can increase the prize package lets say without modifying what is currently given but I wont discuss in public until we flush it out.

 

Hey Squirtle, I'm grateful you adressed this topic so quickly, however I do have some small queries regarding your post and I would be very happy if you could respond to my post as well. I'll try to split my questions to make it a tad easier.

1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

1. I understand your opinion that you believe the non-shiny prizes to be subpar just because they are not shiny but that is the option we are providing to the host to go with.

But why? I mean, the game should be going forward. Instead, the prizes are getting gradually worse and worse. Competitive players find the competitive events less and less attractive and I'm also speaking from experience. We started from turning someone's comp pokemon into a shiny and now we are at point where we receive something with no value whatsoever (as we cannot trade it) and we can't show it off either due to fact that it's not shiny. I totally get your point of view though, that the old prizes were "OP", but this is a drastic change and competitive society, of which I am part as well, is really not satisfied- otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Really, please, get rid of those non-shiny prizes. Unless it's a pokemon like Tauros, Hitmonlee, Braviary etc, as they are a massive pain to breed properly into good IVs. Otherwise, it's just garbage.

1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

2. This will not be happening as we have stated in the past we believe these types of prizes provide too much economic value that affects the rest of the population.

I am hugely trifled by this point. How an existence of something that is untradeable provides economic value? Gift shinies absolutely do not affect the game's economy. Player who won such comp, cannot trade it at all meaning he cannot get any economical profit. Please explain.

 

1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

3. This is actually a request we can get behind and will be proposing it to the development team, Desu, to implement with other enhancements we are looking into in the automated PVP system in the future. Lots of things being worked on so I can't tell when this will be focused on.

This is actually really good to hear, thank you.

 

1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

4. I am going to have to disagree with this one we just don't see it the same way.

Mind letting us know how you see it? One mil prize is really, really small, especially for a competitive player who needs to have few boxes of comps, and you can trust my words- these do not really come for free.

 

1 hour ago, Squirtle said:

6. I can understand your frustration on what you believe to above and beyond what traditional tournaments entail but overall I am not willing to provide an much greater prize pool for a seasonal than typical tournaments. In a season there is greater risk of failure but still greater reward just not as much as you have seen in the past.

If you aren't willing to increase the prize pool, at least please improve it's quality. A shiny "comp" 4x25 + 2x31 for a huge tournament series feels very disappointing.

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Gilan   
Posted (edited)

Just wanted to point out that just because something gets tagged with a gift ribbon doesn’t mean it has no economic value.

1. The person receiving the gift is now no longer a buyer of that pokemon (granted this is a miniscule, arguably insignificant effect)

2. Much more prominent is the effect if someone already has a regular version of the pokemon and is now more than willing to trade it away.

 

But, overall, I myself definitely agree that the rewards of competitive official events are lacking.

 

Personally, I would like to see a good amount smaller tournaments with sub-par prizes, while having a monthly tournament with well-above par prizes. 12 godlike prizes a year should be more than fine for the economy.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited by Gilan

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Toast   
51 minutes ago, Gilan said:

Just wanted to point out that just because something gets tagged with a gift ribbon doesn’t mean it has no economic value.

1. The person receiving the gift is now no longer a buyer of that pokemon (granted this is a miniscule, arguably insignificant effect)

2. Much more prominent is the effect if someone already has a regular version of the pokemon and is now more than willing to trade it away.

i disagree, because any good comp player will have more than one set of the same pokemon, so just because they win a gift doesn't negate the fact that they can still make multiples of one pokemon.

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Gilan   
6 minutes ago, Toast said:

i disagree, because any good comp player will have more than one set of the same pokemon, so just because they win a gift doesn't negate the fact that they can still make multiples of one pokemon.

Sure, but there are still going to be plenty of cases where the player already has all the sets that are needed.

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Toast   
24 minutes ago, Gilan said:

Sure, but there are still going to be plenty of cases where the player already has all the sets that are needed.

i doubt that, since there are so many possibilities of different sets to be made. also, can't make everything when the money reward isn't good enough ;)

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Couldn't really put it better than Senile did about the game being for the players rather than being an economy simulator for the admins but I'll tackle one thing that I feel like was the main argument for the lack of good prizes for the longest time: The snowball effect. The argument (as far as I took the gist of it) was that people shouldn't be able to improve their chances to win by a lot after winning a tournament because the expectation is that the player winning the prize has substential advantage against other competitiors.

 

At first glance this argument looks fine if you're not an active competitive player. Logically it makes sense, practically it doesn't. The way PokeMMO currently functions competitively is that to have a legitimate chance at winning a tournament it's not enough to have six good Pokemon but rather like 20. Scouting and counterteaming is such a crucial part of the competitive scene that if you're not counterteaming yourself you have to at least constantly change your team in order secure deep tournament runs. There's lots of players with lots and lots of skill in the earlier rounds of tournaments but I'd argue the main reason keeping them from becoming the "top tier players" is simply the fact they do not have the resources to change their team. Not only is winning a 64 man tournament difficult to begin with but your resources has to be up to par as well. So when a player wins a tournament and they're getting told that their prize is sufficient enough this is why it doesn't feel that way. The actual boost to their wealth isn't "1/6th what they currently have", it's closer to about 2-3 % at most. How does a 2-3% wealth increase cause a snowball effect when your chance of winning is 1 in 64? This is why it doesn't make sense. I've already argued that gift shinies if anything they hinder your chances of winning because of the fact that the surprise element for every gift shiny in battle is ruined after you battle against it once because the nature is not changable and that's why a Pokemon is always stuck to its specific role and the lack of surprise factor is much bigger than a couple of IVs here and there so when you give a gift shiny - do it properly.

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