1st PvP Team (OU) on PokeMMO, help would be appreciate

[Aard]

2 minutes ago, redspawn said:

I give up.

I kind of want the guy to build the team and tell us how he does against cb scizor after a few encounters.  If the team wins more then 30%  then you win.  If it wins less than 30% I win.  If we bet pokedollars on it then maybe I'd have enough of them to be winning some tournaments.

[razimove]

28 minutes ago, Aard said:

I kind of want the guy to build the team and tell us how he does against cb scizor after a few encounters.  If the team wins more then 30%  then you win.  If it wins less than 30% I win.  If we bet pokedollars on it then maybe I'd have enough of them to be winning some tournaments.

The team isn't great, just your argument is ridiculous to say the least. But it's pretty possible to achieve a above 60% win rate with a team like this, now if you told me something like, scarf ttar deals well with the ghosts, scizor can play the 50/50 game with them and somewhat deal well with a portion of the team, that would be acceptable. But to say scizor shits on the team is pretty ridiculous, because it's 100% not correct. 

[Aard]

16 minutes ago, redspawn said:

The team isn't great, just your argument is ridiculous to say the least. But it's pretty possible to achieve a above 60% win rate with a team like this, now if you told me something like, scarf ttar deals well with the ghosts, scizor can play the 50/50 game with them and somewhat deal well with a portion of the team, that would be acceptable. But to say scizor shits on the team is pretty ridiculous, because it's 100% not correct. 

Scizor shits on the team.  It forces the game into something that's heavily favorable for scizor.  No one would claim a sweeper isn't a problem because the accuracy of ones of its moves is 70%.  But because scizor chips away at stuff instead of setting up and winning the game in one turn its for some reason less deadly when it wins the same amount of overall games. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Aard

[OrangeManiac]

It's easy to point out countless of Pokemon that could destroy a team with the right circumstances but I feel like the biggest challenge is to actually suggest specific improvements to the team to deal with that specific Pokemon without causing any new problems. Scizor does have very limited amount of hard counters from the viable Pokemon in the OU tier (mostly limited to Pelipper, Mantine, Gyarados, Jellicent, Magnezone, Skarm to some extent,  Arcanine but it sucks). Most of these Pokemon share the same typing (Water) so it's not easy to make a diverse team that covers Scizor amazingly. I'd even argue that his current team composition is actually less weak to Scizor than an average OU team is, even though it is true that even with a couple of mispredictions a Scizor may destroy this particular team as well - especially if Jellicent gets KO'd.

 

But yeah, TL;DR is that when you say something is a problem, try to come up with a solution. Otherwise it doesn't really help anyone.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by OrangeManiac

[Aard]

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

I'd even argue that his current team composition is actually less weak to Scizor than an average OU team is, even though it is true that even with a couple of mispredictions a Scizor may destroy this particular team as well - especially if Jellicent gets KO'd.

 

That's not true though because most teams don't get killed by just 2 moves with half of the team being pursuit bait.  If Scizor has to pick between all 4 of its moves to net ko's then its twice as easy to deal with.  And the stuff that's pursuit bait isn't a 50/50, just click pursuit to win.  So no, Scizor is harder to deal with by double or triple with a team like this. 

[KOHHuiXIN]

38 minutes ago, Aard said:

That's not true though because most teams don't get killed by just 2 moves with half of the team being pursuit bait.  If Scizor has to pick between all 4 of its moves to net ko's then its twice as easy to deal with.  And the stuff that's pursuit bait isn't a 50/50, just click pursuit to win.  So no, Scizor is harder to deal with by double or triple with a team like this. 

Ah yes pursuit bait against the chandelure locked into flamethrower, and/or the fat jellicent which takes an astonishing 50% so it can wisp and cripple the scizor from the game. Some PSL top quality tactics I see here

 

Spoiler

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 102-122 (49.5 - 59.2%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

p.s The team is cool btw Balci, I personally don't like teams where the conkeldor switchin is hoping it doesn't have thunder punch, but you could probably outplay, (or maybe switch chandelure for a reuniclus), and if scizor is such a large issue, defensive gliscor is an option to try.

[Aard]

Just now, KOHHuiXIN said:

Ah yes pursuit bait against the chandelure locked into flamethrower

 

Scizor is brought in to revenge so why would anyone bring it in on a chandelure locked into flamethower?  You can manufacture any situation you want to try to argue scizor isn't a problem, but when it gets to the point of having the starting assumption that scizor will switch into a chandelure locked into flamethrower, that's pretty weak. 

[KOHHuiXIN]

Yes if you want to talk about manufacturing situations I gotchu real good.

 

a) The fact that scizor cannot be simultaneously locked into bullet punch, superpower and pursuit means that at the very least 1/2 the team has a method of resisting either steel or dark, and/or is immune to fighting. If you want to talk about switching out, things such as excadril can either take the free turn to setup or do massive damage.

b) Excadril is literally faster than scizor, and does a huge chunk of damage to scizor

Spoiler

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 126-149 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 c) If you want to continue to point out scizors ability to trap and/or revenge kill things, I will point out that the omnipresence of stealth rocks means scizor take 12.5% each switchin, therefore unless you make perfect predictions against gengar, and chandelure, scizor will be chipped and die quickly too. Furthermore CB scizor doesn't have a method of recovery so any chip adds up quickly.

d) The goal if this team from what I can read is to ensure excadril can sweep, I fail to see how killing off some team members (especially when requiring almost perfect situations or perfect predictions to do so), will hinder the game plan of this team

[Aard]

1 hour ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

unless you make perfect predictions against gengar and chandelure, scizor will be chipped and die quickly too.

 

There's no prediction on those two.  Click pursuit and win 100% of the time.

 

 

You are trying to argue fifty different things just to drown the other person out.  I'm just going to focus on the things that are blatantly wrong. 

[Aerun]

Kys

[KOHHuiXIN]

3 hours ago, Aard said:

There's no prediction on those two.  Click pursuit and win 100% of the time.

 

 

You are trying to argue fifty different things just to drown the other person out.  I'm just going to focus on the things that are blatantly wrong. 

My favourite part is being told I'm "blatantly wrong" from a guy who either can't do basic addition or must have the competitive experience of beating the E4 and thinks that he's the pokemon champion

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 107-126 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Remember that scizor is slower than both ghost types, you seem to be confusing scizor for Mega Metagross

 

Each type scizor comes in when rocks are up he loses 12.5%. Please tell me what 60+27+25 = ?

 

Nice strategy 100% of the time to kill, also please address other points provided seeing as you want to use the word "win" as if trapping gengar or chandelure is going to stop a freaking excadril from doing what it does best.

Edited April 10, 2018 by KOHHuiXIN

[Spaintakula]

can we just tell this guy to swap one of his ghosts to magnezone so this guy can legit stop trolling and finally stop posting?

[DoubleJ]

@Aard Scizor would have a very difficult time against this team, especially CB Scizor. This is most notably because it can't spam Superpower into 3 Immunities. In addition, Jellicent is bulky enough to not give a flying you know what against a Pursuit and can simply burn it with WoW or Scald, crippling it for the rest of the match. Jellicent is a free switch all game, resisting everything. Also, Chandelure resists Bullet Punch and can OHKO Scizor with ease. It isn't scared of staying in on Scizor and just won't get Pursuit trapped. Gengar is the only ghost on this team fearful of Scizor. 

 

Now if you consider Scarf Scizor alongside CB Tyranitar and Impish Hippowdon against this team, you would be creating some serious problems for our OP. 

 

Hope this helps.  

[Gunthug]

all i'm saying is, scizor does alright v. this team and it's ok to admit that.

 

This is why we need an active OU viability thread, our competitive community has all this pent up discussion and is releasing it in strange places.

[KOHHuiXIN]

I have no issues agreeing that scissor has a field day in general, and furthermore I agree that BP will knock out Gengar if it stays in.

 

However please tell me @Gunthug

switching gengar and staying in to focus blast are both options right?

Isn’t this a form of 50/50 and thus require some prediction if scizor wants to kill gengar? 

 

It’s a scizor not a scarf tyranitar last time I checked. Also JJ is the g.o.a.t 

[Aard]

2 hours ago, KOHHuiXIN said:

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 107-126 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 170-202 (125.9 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 124-148 (91.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

If scizor loses 70% of its health to a 70% accuracy move it will 1hko back and come in on something else later.  Funny how your calc clearly shows exactly how scizor can easily net 2ko's and still be alive. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Aard

[DoubleJ]

5 minutes ago, Aard said:

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 170-202 (125.9 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 124-148 (91.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

If scizor loses 70% of its health to a 70% accuracy move it will 1hko back and come in on something else later.  Funny how your calc clearly shows exactly how scizor can easily net 2ko's and still be alive. 

This calc makes the assumption that you've came in at full health on gengar without taking damage, absorbed a focus blast and killed with bp 40 pursuit. Then you sacked something to Sball Chand in order to come in at 30% health without being 2hko'd, and then killed it with bp 40 pursuit as well. 

 

You're right though, it can be done. 

[Aard]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

This calc makes the assumption that you've came in at full health on gengar without taking damage

That's not an assumption.  The job of scizor is to come in every time something dies.  It gets 5 opportunities.  On 3 mons it can pick a move thats a 100% win for that turn and on the other 3 its a 50/50 shot. 

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, Aard said:

That's not an assumption.  The job of scizor is to come in every time something dies.  It gets 5 opportunities.  On 3 mons it can pick a move thats a 100% win for that turn and on the other 3 its a 50/50 shot. 

Like I said you're right. My man here has got Stealth Rock though so be sure those aren't on the field. Otherwise one layer and that Shadow Ball will kill. 

 

Good catch though. 

[Aard]

25 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Like I said you're right. My man here has got Stealth Rock though so be sure those aren't on the field. Otherwise one layer and that Shadow Ball will kill. 

 

Good catch though. 

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

I guess if scizor goes and gets drunk for 2 turns and ends up in jail where he can't get out for a week then there might be enough shadow balls to kill.  Otherwise Scizor wins easily.

 

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 124-148 (91.8 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Even if you start from the position that chandy has rocks up and scizor doesn't, Scizor still wins. 

 

 

So yeah, idk, maybe you had the math on stealth rock wrong and were too lazy to hit the sr button to check. 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Aard

[DoubleJ]

20 minutes ago, Aard said:

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

I guess if scizor goes and gets drunk for 2 turns and ends up in jail where he can't get out for a week then there might be enough shadow balls to kill.  Otherwise Scizor wins easily.

 

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 124-148 (91.8 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Even if you start from the position that chandy has rocks up and scizor doesn't, Scizor still wins. 

 

 

So yeah, idk, maybe you had the math on stealth rock wrong and were too lazy to hit the sr button to check. 

 

My mistake, I thought your example implied that you were going to kill both his Gengar and Chandelure in one match. 

[Aard]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

My mistake, I thought your example implied that you were going to kill both his Gengar and Chandelure in one match. 

Scizor will if stealth rock is where scizor wants it or if gengar whiffs focus blast.  Those together are well over half and still there's an opportunity for a 50/50 at that point if at least scizors rocks are up. 

[Spaintakula]

15 hours ago, Aard said:

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

I guess if scizor goes and gets drunk for 2 turns and ends up in jail where he can't get out for a week then there might be enough shadow balls to kill.  Otherwise Scizor wins easily.

 

252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 48-57 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 124-148 (91.8 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Even if you start from the position that chandy has rocks up and scizor doesn't, Scizor still wins. 

 

 

So yeah, idk, maybe you had the math on stealth rock wrong and were too lazy to hit the sr button to check. 

 

Ur right bro I 100% support u

Edited April 11, 2018 by Spaintakula

[sephiroth1977]

So what makes scizor more of a threat to this team then lets say..  a metagross?

[Balci]

Honestly guys I really appreciate the fact that you parcipate that much but at the end it does not help me: what I'm supposed to understand about this scizor... I'm even more lost than the previous page.