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Match Fixing


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Just now, Takens said:

The person playing all his matches breaking up his mind to gain something the hard way.

 

Just now, ImFunk said:

The people that are required to win 5 matches to advance to the finals while someone else only needs to win 2. 

Okay, so some people have to work harder. But how does that really put that player at a disadvantage over Frags? If in both situations, Frags playing all his matches / not playing his matches, bears no difference in the final outcome, then what's the real problem?

 

Just now, DoubleJ said:

Is that relevant to the argument though? The complaint is that a player was able to advance past three rounds while everyone else had to compete to advance like you're supposed to. 

It's relevant because you're complaining about how a person is able to gain an advantage and you want to punish him for being to able to take advantage of it. If I had the option to skip 3 matches that I was certain to win, I would definitely do that. It's not like Frags or the rest of Aw control the bracket where they repeatedly do this, because then it would be a bigger issue. But if the opportunity presents for itself, it would be dumb not to take it.

 

I've seen so many instances where teammates play each other, and the one who is eventually going to win the match needs to suddenly leave, and then hands over the win to his teammate. I am also guilty of such an act where I gave a teammate a win because I believed I didn't deserve the win. And if teammates wanted, they could easily match-manipulate by telling each other what move to make while making the match look more legit to the spectators, but that would just be pointless.  

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14 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

 

Okay, so some people have to work harder. But how does that really put that player at a disadvantage over Frags? If in both situations, Frags playing all his matches / not playing his matches, bears no difference in the final outcome, then what's the real problem?

Well... Assume that regular player has an average w/l of 90%. Now assume team-coordinating player has an average w/l of 75%.

The regular player plays 5 matches, and thus has an expected win rate of the tournament of ~59%

The team coordinating player, on the other hand, has an expected win rate of the tournament of ~56% if they only have to play 2 real matches

 

So two drastically different competence levels result in the same average win rate. This should not happen.

 

I'm of the opinion that teammates coordinating to give someone free wins should be punished. But it's not my decision to make, nor would it be easy to enforce.

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1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

 

Okay, so some people have to work harder. But how does that really put that player at a disadvantage over Frags? If in both situations, Frags playing all his matches / not playing his matches, bears no difference in the final outcome, then what's the real problem?

Not just "some people" but literally everyone else has to work harder in order to advance in a tournament. The problem is the fact that players/teams are abusing a flaw in the system and are in direct disobedience of the TOC we all have agreed to play by. 

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

 

It's relevant because you're complaining about how a person is able to gain an advantage and you want to punish him for being to able to take advantage of it. If I had the option to skip 3 matches that I was certain to win, I would definitely do that. It's not like Frags or the rest of Aw control the bracket where they repeatedly do this, because then it would be a bigger issue. But if the opportunity presents for itself, it would be dumb not to take it.

You're right, it is foolish not to skip three matches in a tournament to better your opportunity to win. You've just gained an advantage that other players don't have. 

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

I've seen so many instances where teammates play each other, and the one who is eventually going to win the match needs to suddenly leave, and then hands over the win to his teammate. I am also guilty of such an act where I gave a teammate a win because I believed I didn't deserve the win.

Your argument in this paragraph is a poor analogy. The examples you provided are not equivocal to what happened in this event. 

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

And if teammates wanted, they could easily match-manipulate by telling each other what move to make while making the match look more legit to the spectators, but that would just be pointless.  

Match-Manipulation, much like Coaching in the PSL, is an easily abused system that is hard to prove, but when it's obvious hands should and must be slapped. 

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Since registration is free, I sometimes participate and take a slot, and the moment battle starts, session ends.

Why does it end ? Cause I can end it, and go do something else which immediately seems more important than that at the moment. Happens every time.

 

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

You're right, it is foolish not to skip three matches in a tournament to better your opportunity to win. You've just gained an advantage that other players don't have. 

Its not like the whole tourney bracket is just Aw players giving each other wins.

Their members defeat other players to get to that advantage where they can decide which teammate would proceed further.

 

7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Match-Manipulation, much like Coaching in the PSL, is an easily abused system that is hard to prove, but when it's obvious hands should and must be slapped. 

Seems to me like a bunch of pros just taking out other players and trusting a comrade to win on their behalf instead of wasting each other's time.

Hands must be slapped for performing great as a team kicking other teamplayer's asses ? Doesn't seem fair at all man. Save the salt for the kitchen.

Edited by Akshit
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5 minutes ago, Akshit said:

Its not like the whole tourney bracket is just Aw players giving each other wins.

Their members defeat other players to get to that advantage where they can decide which teammate would proceed further.

This may be true but it is a red herring against the original argument. Regardless of how they got to this advantage, the advantage for this one player is still present. 

 

5 minutes ago, Akshit said:

 

Seems to me like a bunch of pros just taking out other players and trusting a comrade to win on their behalf instead of wasting each other's time.

Hands must be slapped for performing great as a team kicking other teamplayer's asses ? Doesn't seem fair at all man. Save the salt for the kitchen.

Again this is true, but historically speaking PokeMMO has taken a stance against actions like this prior to the automated system. If this kind of play-style is now accepted by the PokeMMO staff, then something should be said stating such. Teams can then take advantage of their size and hope for incestuous match-ups to reap the reward at the end of the tournament, which would be yen, and then share it among themselves. 

 

If this is still frowned upon though, action should be taken as argued. 

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Just now, Gilan said:

I'm of the opinion that teammates coordinating to give someone free wins should be punished. But it's not my decision to make, nor would it be easy to enforce.

I disagree though, and yes it wouldn't be easy to enforce. 

 

Just now, DoubleJ said:

Not just "some people" but literally everyone else has to work harder in order to advance in a tournament. The problem is the fact that players/teams are abusing a flaw in the system and are in direct disobedience of the TOC we all have agreed to play by.  

Someone having to work harder doesn't matter at all when it's only two people (or one in this case) that has to actually work that hard to advance in the tournament. As Akshit said, the only reason Frags was able to gain this advantage is because of the system + the effort his teammates put. It's not really a "free" win when his teammates had to put themselves in the position to give him the advantage. Tbh the language in the TOC is really vague as to what constitutes as match manipulation - "any action taken to manipulate the outcome of the game." Any action? This would mean coaching / asking questions too. 

 

Just now, DoubleJ said:

You're right, it is foolish not to skip three matches in a tournament to better your opportunity to win. You've just gained an advantage that other players don't have. 

 

Yeah and it's an advantage that the game handed over to him. 

 

Just now, DoubleJ said:

Your argument in this paragraph is a poor analogy. The examples you provided are not equivocal to what happened in this event. 

The point is that teammates look out for each other, and the issue that you refer to as match manipulation can be extended to so many circumstances where a majority of us should be punished, but don't deserve to be punished. What I've stated here:

"I've seen so many instances where teammates play each other, and the one who is eventually going to win the match needs to suddenly leave, and then hands over the win to his teammate. I am also guilty of such an act where I gave a teammate a win because I believed I didn't deserve the win."

 

That's definitely match-manipulation. What Frags did is also match-manipulation. And what's to stop Frags from telling his teammates to bring a team weak to bdrum zard or linoone, and then sweeping in 2 min? Doing so is just a waste of time.  

 

Just now, DoubleJ said:

Match-Manipulation, much like Coaching in the PSL, is an easily abused system that is hard to prove, but when it's obvious hands should and must be slapped. 

Except that match-manipulation is much broader than coaching. It's so much easier to define what coaching is than what match manipulation is. The issue more or less seems to be to not make it look obvious, but again that's just an unnecessary waste of time. 

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Just now, DoubleJ said:

Again this is true, but historically speaking PokeMMO has taken a stance against actions like this prior to the automated system. If this kind of play-style is now accepted by the PokeMMO staff, then something should be said stating such. Teams can then take advantage of their size and hope for incestuous match-ups to reap the reward at the end of the tournament, which would be yen, and then share it among themselves. 

 

If this is still frowned upon though, action should be taken as argued. 

The only time I remember Pokemmo taking a stance against this was the Bloo v. Fishtickles (2013) incident, which was criticized since the match-manitpulation occurred due to a mislick of a banned move. So basically it was wrongly decided, and since then there have been no instances of someone being banned due to match-manipulation despite it taking place. 

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1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

 

Okay, so some people have to work harder. But how does that really put that player at a disadvantage over Frags? If in both situations, Frags playing all his matches / not playing his matches, bears no difference in the final outcome, then what's the real problem?

 

It's relevant because you're complaining about how a person is able to gain an advantage and you want to punish him for being to able to take advantage of it. If I had the option to skip 3 matches that I was certain to win, I would definitely do that. It's not like Frags or the rest of Aw control the bracket where they repeatedly do this, because then it would be a bigger issue. But if the opportunity presents for itself, it would be dumb not to take it.

 

I've seen so many instances where teammates play each other, and the one who is eventually going to win the match needs to suddenly leave, and then hands over the win to his teammate. I am also guilty of such an act where I gave a teammate a win because I believed I didn't deserve the win. And if teammates wanted, they could easily match-manipulate by telling each other what move to make while making the match look more legit to the spectators, but that would just be pointless.  

We are not complaining for frags, but for the people letting him pass they do deserve the punishment for uncompetitive attitude on a official tournament.

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1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Someone having to work harder doesn't matter at all when it's only two people (or one in this case) that has to actually work that hard to advance in the tournament. As Akshit said, the only reason Frags was able to gain this advantage is because of the system + the effort his teammates put. It's not really a "free" win when his teammates had to put themselves in the position to give him the advantage.

Again, the red herring. And technically it is a free win for that one player who didn't play a match, even despite teammates having to beat other players. 

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Tbh the language in the TOC is really vague as to what constitutes as match manipulation - "any action taken to manipulate the outcome of the game." Any action? This would mean coaching / asking questions too. 

Agreed.

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

The point is that teammates look out for each other, and the issue that you refer to as match manipulation can be extended to so many circumstances where a majority of us should be punished, but don't deserve to be punished. What I've stated here:

"I've seen so many instances where teammates play each other, and the one who is eventually going to win the match needs to suddenly leave, and then hands over the win to his teammate. I am also guilty of such an act where I gave a teammate a win because I believed I didn't deserve the win."

 

That's definitely match-manipulation. What Frags did is also match-manipulation. And what's to stop Frags from telling his teammates to bring a team weak to bdrum zard or linoone, and then sweeping in 2 min? Doing so is just a waste of time.  

 

Agreed, those are all instances of match-manipulation but this instance is an extreme example of players not even registering to play in order for one player to advance. Again, the original argument is that this is an advantage given to one player that others in the tournament typically do not have. More of the same red herring. 

 

1 minute ago, NikhilR said:

Except that match-manipulation is much broader than coaching. It's so much easier to define what coaching is than what match manipulation is. The issue more or less seems to be to not make it look obvious, but again that's just an unnecessary waste of time. 

Unnecessary if there is no punishment. 

 

2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

The only time I remember Pokemmo taking a stance against this was the Bloo v. Fishtickles (2013) incident, which was criticized since the match-manitpulation occurred due to a mislick of a banned move. So basically it was wrongly decided, and since then there have been no instances of someone being banned due to match-manipulation despite it taking place. 

There were several instances throughout the original Master's series in 2013 where teammates were DQ'd for assumed match manipulation. Warnings were commonly given out by staff to prevent these kind of situations from ever taking place. Today, match manipulation is made easy by the automated system. Is that a good or bad thing? I can't say, but I do argue that seeing one player advance in a tournament without playing several matches is unfair. 

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And here I was wondering why I dont enter officials, thanks for reminding me. Bring back silph co stuff please!!!

Also, on topic. I really don´t care much about all this cause honestly, automated officials are hypeless, therefore I am able to stand unbiasedly. The way I see this, its fairly obvious bigger and active team rosters gain a massive advantage over others. Larger team rosters can just spam their players and try to eliminate other people in some rounds, while giving someone of their team some byes. After 2 or 3 rounds, our 64 official bracket looks like it has been reduced to 32 or so. An analogy may help here. Let´s assume a standard football league of 16 teams (similar to the 64 or 128 or whatever players here). How fair would it be for the others if like 3 or 4 of those teams were in fact the same? They would just manipulate their matches to optimize their advantage. Also, for god sake, we have this many rounds just to prove the winner is worthy the prize. Forcing byes with probaly some rewards for the leavers at the end, so you can just win it all at minimal effort is just plain sad. 

Lastly, by getting a bye, you gain massive advantage over the opponent for two reasons:

1- Chances are you finished the game first and you have more time to scout enemy´s team or even spec his game.

2- Enemy loses the scouting option, which since this  is a pokemon game, its fairly sad.

 

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38 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Teams can then take advantage of their size and hope for incestuous match-ups to reap the reward at the end of the tournament, which would be yen, and then share it among themselves. 

 

lol this alleged "match manipulation" does not give the team any greater chance of winning a tournament, think about this claim for a second.

 

19 minutes ago, pachima said:

 

Lastly, by getting a bye, you gain massive advantage over the opponent for two reasons:

1- Chances are you finished the game first and you have more time to scout enemy´s team or even spec his game.

2- Enemy loses the scouting option, which since this  is a pokemon game, its fairly sad.

 

To borrow your own language, this is a massive exaggeration. Players in these big teams are gonna get their scouting in regardless - and forcing them to drag out these matches for 15-20 minutes will only give them and their other teammates more time to scout. Your second point makes a huge assumption - that the player who is "match fixing" is going to bring real, scoutable mons to the matchup against their teammate which has been, for all intents and purposes, predetermined. Plus, the argument of "well he won't let me scout!" is a sad one, borrowing a phrase again

 

 

Look, I think the focus is misplaced here. No matter how many teammates fall on the sword for frags, every time he advances 1 player loses their shot at the tournament prize. At the end of the bracket, if frags hasn't lost he's won, end of story. You have to beat him in the finals exactly the same way as you'd have to if he dragged out a bunch of teammate matches earlier where they "pretend" to try and get 6-0d (or maybe they actually try and get 6-0d, tbh). So people whining about this from an "it gives frags a huge advantage" standpoint are probably just mad they can't beat him

 

HOWEVER, this is definitely a problem for another reason - it's limiting access to tournaments. Based on the activity cited here, we have players signing up for a tournament with no intent to actually participate in or win the tournament. They are taking spots away from other people who actually want to win. Problem is, this is very hard to police and/or prove. What if 6 AW guys enter, 5 of which will throw down their sword v frags in a heartbeat - but frags loses 1st round? Those other 5 are now playing for the final prize (probably with frags hand up their ass)

 

So yeah, I see why this is a problem, solely based on access to tourneys. But it's so hard to police and monitor, I don't think it's worth the effort

 

 

edit: one last point - didn't LYLE do this in order to get Murcielago his first tournament win?

Edited by Gunthug
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Just now, Gunthug said:

lol this alleged "match manipulation" does not give the team any greater chance of winning a tournament, think about this claim for a second.

Thought about it for a second. Chances of winning a tournament are enhanced when you get to skip rounds. While the act of winning the final and outplaying someone else is still there, not having to play any number of rounds does increase your chance of winning simply by the fact you had an easier road to the final. 

 

Just now, Gunthug said:

So yeah, I see why this is a problem, solely based on access to tourneys. But it's so hard to police and monitor, I don't think it's worth the effort

Definitely cannot be policed nor monitored by staff in the automated system. It's just another flaw that showed up with the implementation of this design. I though am certainly biased against automated tournaments because live events are what kept my interest in this game in the first place. 

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1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

Thought about it for a second. Chances of winning a tournament are enhanced when you get to skip rounds. While the act of winning the final and outplaying someone else is still there, not having to play any number of rounds does increase your chance of winning simply by the fact you had an easier road to the final. 

 

So long as we understand that an AW player v and AW player will always result in an AW player moving forward - there's no advantage there. What you're describing does sound like some sort of competitive edge, but at what point is that a permissible edge? As I said on discord, being in a larger team gives you access to an enormous variety of comps, more than those who are in smaller teams or no team at all. This is an MMO, however, and you gain competitive advantages through non-competitive aspects of gameplay

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

edit: one last point - didn't LYLE do this in order to get Murcielago his first tournament win?

So true, and they made it public rofl.


Funny fact that Doublej only made this thread when frags won this tournament, but not when FRAGS gave free wins to his team mates in the past, which has happened in many brackets and finals, giving them free shinies.

This post was clearly made by someone looking for the punishment of frags because he just envy him. I don't think anyone here cares about jj personal feelings.

If the purpose is improve the system, it should have been made in the suggestion box instead.

Edited by SejuaniSupport
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