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Doubles Tier Discussion Request Thread


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  • 9 months later...
  • 9 months later...
  • 2 months later...

A few topics on my mind:

  1. How well has the tier adapted to a new speed tier with the additions of Garchomp and Infernape?
  2. Is rain still as viable with another water-absorber like Gastrodon in play?
  3. What new pokemon not named above will make the biggest difference in the doubles meta moving forward?

@Zigh =)

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1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

1. How well has the tier adapted to a new speed tier with the additions of Garchomp and Infernape?

2. Is rain still as viable with another water-absorber like Gastrodon in play?

3. What new pokemon not named above will make the biggest difference in the doubles meta moving forward?

1. There wasn't this much of adapation to be honest in my Eyes, Garchomp and Rotom-W were the only Pokes i have fought yet in real matches and both dont make too big of a difference (Garch makes Sand more Viable tho)

2. Yes it is, i doubt many play Gastrodon, since its speed is that low and makes a huge difference in much cases outside of Trick Room.

3. I guess Rotom Forms have the Potential to still bring a good amount if impact, maybe lopunny is a niche pick with its moves, besides that i guess toxicroak in rain with sucker punch really could pick of some stuff, but testing is still needed in my eyes.

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12 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

A few topics on my mind:

  1. How well has the tier adapted to a new speed tier with the additions of Garchomp and Infernape?
  2. Is rain still as viable with another water-absorber like Gastrodon in play?
  3. What new pokemon not named above will make the biggest difference in the doubles meta moving forward?

@Zigh

1- Still a bit early to say anything, but garchomp is making quite the difference in dubs. Everyone is running either icy wind + hydreigon, more icebeam users or just hp ice. Haven't seen infernape yet, imo is not viable rn. Too many togekiss, blastoise, etc.

 

2- Rain still has ludicolo and ferro to deal with gastrodon, so is not a big deal. In fact rain now benefits from this, with the surf spam + gastrodon. Rotom-W or even rotom-M are a bigger deal vs rain

 

3- Rotom is gonna be the new Best mon overall. Its huge viability makes it worthy running in almost every single team. Levitate with garchomp around is awesome, its typings are perfect, and has enough moves to be either  an offensive or defensive tool.

 

Im also interested in abomasnow; while alone is not a great mon, there might be a hidden team that exploits it.

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Leviatharian said:

1. There wasn't this much of adapation to be honest in my Eyes, Garchomp and Rotom-W were the only Pokes i have fought yet in real matches and both dont make too big of a difference (Garch makes Sand more Viable tho)

They don't what??

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1 minute ago, Zigh said:

1- Still a bit early to say anything, but garchomp is making quite the difference in dubs. Everyone is running either icy wind + hydreigon, more icebeam users or just hp ice. Haven't seen infernape yet, imo is not viable rn. Too many togekiss, blastoise, etc.

 

They don't what??

Exactly cause of ice beam/icy wind spam i meant that

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, Zigh said:

Im also interested in abomasnow; while alone is not a great mon, there might be a hidden team that exploits it.

Randy Kwa (R Inanimate) had some decent success with this team back in vgc 2012 that exploits abomasnow pretty well. Heracross / Heatran could be swapped out for something that can deal with the core's weaknesses better in this meta

 

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/international-wifi-tournament-international-challenge-won-by-cybertron.3462081/page-48#post-4165189

 

"The team is a Hail Team in the sense that it goes for Blizzard spam. There ends up being a lot of shared weaknesses in the team, particularly Fire, Fighting, Ice, and Rock. I've found it quite entertaining to play, but also quite difficult. There were a lot of situations where I was a hair's width away from losing, but bailed myself out with a bit of luck or some good plays. I found out the hard way that the team can collapse fast when I'm not at the top of my game, losing 100 points in rating within about 4 hours."

Edited by Draconid
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10 hours ago, Draconid said:

Randy Kwa (R Inanimate) had some decent success with this team back in vgc 2012 that exploits abomasnow pretty well. Heracross / Heatran could be swapped out for something that can deal with the core's weaknesses better in this meta

 

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/international-wifi-tournament-international-challenge-won-by-cybertron.3462081/page-48#post-4165189

 

"The team is a Hail Team in the sense that it goes for Blizzard spam. There ends up being a lot of shared weaknesses in the team, particularly Fire, Fighting, Ice, and Rock. I've found it quite entertaining to play, but also quite difficult. There were a lot of situations where I was a hair's width away from losing, but bailed myself out with a bit of luck or some good plays. I found out the hard way that the team can collapse fast when I'm not at the top of my game, losing 100 points in rating within about 4 hours."

VGC should not be taken in consideration when talking about PokeMMO's doubles format. Not only 4v4 instead of 6v6 is already a huge difference; VGC also holds additional mons (legendaries), hidden abilites, item clause... Plus different mechanics. Also that team is (MMO wise) bad, would lose to any common core right now. Ice type doesn't have a place in Doubles besides for checking Garchomp, and Yache Berry is there to stop it. There is no reason to run Rotom-F over Rotom-W, Heracross is useless and we dont have any substitute for Heatran.

After some testing I would say Abomasnow is pure garbage. Loses to every single weather team. Running it to change weather would be a waste of a slot. Its typing doesnt help either, it gets 0hkoed too easily.

That being said, I'll try to use it more in a few tournaments to see how people play around it.

 

 

Edited by Zigh
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On 4/15/2020 at 10:48 AM, Zigh said:

VGC should not be taken in consideration when talking about PokeMMO's doubles format. Not only 4v4 instead of 6v6 is already a huge difference; VGC also holds additional mons (legendaries), hidden abilites, item clause... Plus different mechanics. Also that team is (MMO wise) bad, would lose to any common core right now. Ice type doesn't have a place in Doubles besides for checking Garchomp, and Yache Berry is there to stop it. There is no reason to run Rotom-F over Rotom-W, Heracross is useless and we dont have any substitute for Heatran.

After some testing I would say Abomasnow is pure garbage. Loses to every single weather team. Running it to change weather would be a waste of a slot. Its typing doesnt help either, it gets 0hkoed too easily.

That being said, I'll try to use it more in a few tournaments to see how people play around it.

 

 

Thank you for correcting me! This doubles format is proving to be very interesting to learn about! :)

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  • 5 months later...
  • 1 month later...

I've been practicing with Kingdra lately and its access to Sniper + Scope Lens + Draco Meteor + Muddy Water (Stab, spread) is unbelievably centralizing. In practice it's too good not to use and by spectating past Doubles matches its evident that everyone and their mama is trying to find a way to counter it, typically at the detriment of their team build. Support moves like Follow Me, Rage Powder, Wide Guard, Tailwind, and Feint are proving too effective at protecting this powerhouse and initiating its set-up and eventual obliteration of opposing teams mid-game. Most counter plays hinge on a 10% missed Draco Meteor which allows for Kingdra or its supporting partner to finally fall... and this is just not healthy.

 

Now I recognize that our tier policies are somewhat outdated, which makes classifying this Pokemon difficult and especially so in Doubles. While CritDra can sweep, it's primary objective is just to break a team by eliminating two or three pokemon which allows for an easy path to victory. It's access to an overpowered stab (Draco) and a stab spread move (Muddy Water) make

counter plays difficult, as both attacks cover damn near everything. Add the ability Sniper which boosts its power with a Critical Hit, and this sets it apart even further from other Focus Energy + Scope Lens users.

 

So what should we do? I think we should add Kingdra to the Suspect Ban list with the plan to complex ban its access to the ability Sniper. This ability truly sets it apart by pushing crits over the edge of, "ouch" to "oh God everything is dying." That, or we consider banning Scope Lens (and possibly so in other tiers too... glances at Focus Energy Hydrei in OU).

 

Thoughts?

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Scouted for PSL.

 

I'm very much on the fence on Kingdra but leaning more to 'not broken' side. But I wouldn't mind seeing it gone. I think there is still plenty of room for innovation in Doubles and that it's still a bit early to conclude what is actually banworthy. For example exploring Shell Armor options like Lapras or Escavelier. Especially Esca can fit very well on TR teams or simply as a anti TR mon as it deals well with TR threats like Reuni and Rhyperior.

 

Trick Room teams are one of the most popular teams in doubles and they have a decent matchup against crit teams as well. Something like Helping Hand + EQ could potentially shred through Crit teams too, or discharge combos like Mow + Manectric. Blizzard spam is another viable option of dealing with crit. Spread moves have to work around hitmontop ofc but then kingdra is vulnerable to single target.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that I think there are many ways to work around the team and they all seem viable. So it a strong team? Undoubtedly. But I don't think I have to go out of my way too much to deal with it. The most annoying thing i find about critdra is how braindead it sometimes is (which is why its spammed so much ofc) and a lot of games i play against critdra come down to if they get a double protect or not.

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1 hour ago, ThinkNicer said:

Scouted for PSL.

 

I'm very much on the fence on Kingdra but leaning more to 'not broken' side. But I wouldn't mind seeing it gone. I think there is still plenty of room for innovation in Doubles and that it's still a bit early to conclude what is actually banworthy. For example exploring Shell Armor options like Lapras or Escavelier. Especially Esca can fit very well on TR teams or simply as a anti TR mon as it deals well with TR threats like Reuni and Rhyperior.

 

Trick Room teams are one of the most popular teams in doubles and they have a decent matchup against crit teams as well. Something like Helping Hand + EQ could potentially shred through Crit teams too, or discharge combos like Mow + Manectric. Blizzard spam is another viable option of dealing with crit. Spread moves have to work around hitmontop ofc but then kingdra is vulnerable to single target.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that I think there are many ways to work around the team and they all seem viable. So it a strong team? Undoubtedly. But I don't think I have to go out of my way too much to deal with it. The most annoying thing i find about critdra is how braindead it sometimes is (which is why its spammed so much ofc) and a lot of games i play against critdra come down to if they get a double protect or not.

So what you're telling me is that you're always going to run Oblivious Slowking to get off TR, pray your opponent isn't running Imprison, and then still hope for a move that can kill Kingdra as it continues to go to pound town. Lapras is straight ass in doubles, as it doesn't provide any support moves and is reliant on STAB Ice Beam. Excadrill has potential, I agree on that.

 

26 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Empoleon Roar

Slow enough and with the right number of weaknesses to be threatened with a OHKO trying to spam a -4 priority move to try and phase out a set-up mon. I can see the misplays a mile away. Whirlwind and Roar have utility, but are so frightfully predictable. Might work to slow down the set up but once its identified Empo and others will probs just get nuked out.

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