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Doubles Tier Discussion Request Thread

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The Doubles Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by staff and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. 

 

Rules:

  • All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
  • All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
  • Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.

 

Things to consider:

  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the SM tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
  • Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/ created by Senile and reformatted by myself. 

 

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

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I hereby request that we open a thread to discuss the implementation of "Sleep Clause" in the doubles tier/format. We previously disregarded this clause simply because Doubles was incredibly offensive, there were few sleep users, and the majority of sleep moves were low accuracy and risky to use. 

 

With the recent update, we were introduced to Amoongus which is a phenomenal support mon with access to Rage Powder and Spore, which is a 100% accuracy move. The effect that Sleep has on the Doubles tier is growing with each tournament and it's time we take a look at nerfing this aspect of play. 

 

tl;dr Insert Sleep Clause

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i have a question. is sleep the problem or is it amoonguss? are other pokemon game breakingly good with it or is it just the one? because if it's just amoonguss its not sleep thats broken its amoonguss that is. you dont complex ban to prevent the ban of a single pokemon guys.

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4 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

i have a question. is sleep the problem or is it amoonguss? are other pokemon game breakingly good with it or is it just the one? because if it's just amoonguss its not sleep thats broken its amoonguss that is. you dont complex ban to prevent the ban of a single pokemon guys.

It's the mix between spore and amonguss stats (the poke).

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5 minutes ago, Takens said:

It's the mix between spore and amonguss stats (the poke).

i disagree about the spore part because breloom, jumpluff, and smeargle have it and no one seems to think they are broken either. the only pokemon people are complaining about is amonguss. its the pokemon not the clause/move. thats not to say its ban worthy, just that if something should be banned its amonguss.

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4 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

i disagree about the spore part because breloom, jumpluff, and smeargle have it and no one seems to think they are broken either. the only pokemon people are complaining about is amonguss. its the pokemon not the clause/move. thats not to say its ban worthy, just that if something should be banned its amonguss.

Jumpluff cannot learn Spore. Only pokes which can are Breloom, Amoonguss, Smeaegle and Shiinotic (and it's pre-evos).

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1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

>from Aura

>literally forgets Parasect

Where is the sense of mentioning the uber of ubers?

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One of the biggest issues with sleep in Doubles right now is that we don't have the sleep counter play mechanics working/implemented. Overcoat on Mandibuzz/Reuniclus or Vital Spirit on the Follow Me Humanaoids would help any team against Sleep spam. Without Storm Drain, Cradily doesn't seem worth running in Doubles and yet Cradily might be one of the few grass type that doesn't fear Amoongus. 

 

We also have other sleep abusers that haven't become centralising yet. Smeargle is probably the most notorious sleep abuser and when we get Focus Sash it will be everywhere. Liligant + Torkoal will eventually become extremely difficult to handle without sleep clause and the only reason imo why that combo isn't played much yet is because After You isn't working which makes this combo not worth running. Paras/Parasect are not the best Doubles pokemons, but they will be far from useless once we get Focus Sash, Wide Guard and Dry Skin.

Despite all the counter plays I imagine could be used to prevent sleep spam, sleep spam is and will remain imo much easier than in gen 3. We have new fake out users, new follow me users, more sleep abusers and new mechanics that support sleep abusers extremely well. For instance, Amoongus being weak to Psychic/Fire/Flying/Ice can't be ohko by any move that isn't super effective and stab.

Spoiler

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Amoonguss: 170-202 (76.9 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Rain and Sandstorm users are commonly used with Amoongus to remove the Fire weakness and to make Hurricane accuracy laughable. Ice mons are extremely rare in Doubles. Intimidate makes it very easy for Amoongus to not get ohko from the physical attacks. Beside CB Metagross, I can't think of any pokemon capable of killing Amoongus with a physical move after an intimidate. I sometime play Hyper Beam Porygon Z just so I have a OHKO option on my team which should show how ridiculous I think Amoongus is. Therefore, Amoongus is pretty much guaranteed to sleep a pokemon if used correctly and once a pokemon falls asleep it becomes very easy to sleep the other pokemon because you have considerably less pressure. 

 

Overall, Amoongus as good as it may be would imo not be broken if we had Sleep Clause and the same could be said about the other sleep abusers like Breloom, Venusaur, Butterfree, Liligant, Smeargle and Parasect.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by gbwead

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23 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

i disagree about the spore part because breloom, jumpluff, and smeargle have it and no one seems to think they are broken either. the only pokemon people are complaining about is amonguss. its the pokemon not the clause/move. thats not to say its ban worthy, just that if something should be banned its amonguss.

Spore is good the thing we can't allow is spore+amonguss on doubles so the best thing to do is just ban amonguss from the tier.

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I think 

5 hours ago, Takens said:

Spore is good the thing we can't allow is spore+amonguss on doubles so the best thing to do is just ban amonguss from the tier.

I think ban amoongus  is not a good solution, just put sleep-clause, breloom with swift choice band jolly and full spore can make the same work than amoongus 

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13 hours ago, pipo979 said:

I think 

I think ban amoongus  is not a good solution, just put sleep-clause, breloom with swift choice band jolly and full spore can make the same work than amoongus 

it can't since it's a little fragil that strategy with breelom was used on the last gen and it was countered.

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20 minutes ago, Takens said:

it can't since it's a little fragil that strategy with breelom was used on the last gen and it was countered.

I know but, I still thinking that the solution about amoongus is only play with sleep clause.

 

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5 hours ago, pipo979 said:

I know but, I still thinking that the solution about amoongus is only play with sleep clause.

 

you're arguments are flawed. scarf breloom is not even viable. just because it gets spore does not make it amoongus. and your basing your "only possible" conclusion on this flawed premise. 

 

also gb if you removed spore form the game it would also not be op. if you changed his hp to 10 it wouldnt even be viable. just because something is A solution does not make it the right solution. 

 

and dont bring in non viable pokemon into this, you're getting as bad as the nubs.

Edited by fredrichnietze

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I'm not very into doubles yet, been giving the tier a chance as of lately but didn't have a chance to play much yet, so this is just a random question in regards of amonguss and sleep clause.

Is the biggest problem, the fact that spore can effectively shut down a lot of teams, or is it that the effect spore rng + spore makes it way to strong in your eyes? Eventually we'll get proper checks for this I guess like gb said, but how viable will some of them be in the current metas for doubles?

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3 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

you're arguments are flawed. scarf breloom is not even viable. just because it gets spore does not make it amoongus. and your basing your "only possible" conclusion on this flawed premise. 

 

also gb if you removed spore form the game it would also not be op. if you changed his hp to 10 it wouldnt even be viable. just because something is A solution does not make it the right solution. 

 

and dont bring in non viable pokemon into this, you're getting as bad as the nubs.

You are calling me noob but you don't know a move named "safeguard" do you know the use of that? 

Your solution is one of the worst I ever heard "ban amoongus" god I f you are not good enough for counter a amoongus is no the a problem, I think just put "sleep clause" in doubles is the best solution than "ban amoongus".

You are like the other guys who can't fight againist volcarona and want to ban it, If you are not good enough, don't play pvp or doubles battle :3

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1 hour ago, redspawn said:

I'm not very into doubles yet, been giving the tier a chance as of lately but didn't have a chance to play much yet, so this is just a random question in regards of amonguss and sleep clause.

Is the biggest problem, the fact that spore can effectively shut down a lot of teams, or is it that the effect spore rng + spore makes it way to strong in your eyes? Eventually we'll get proper checks for this I guess like gb said, but how viable will some of them be in the current metas for doubles?

The problem is about "rage powder" but we have totally atacks like "eruption" and not only that, we have taunt, taun on amoongus will completely make him useless but that's no the question.

They think spore in amoongus + rage powder are brocken but and they want to ban it, is not a viable solution, in the current6 metas the people use amoongus with than combo and have a powerfull sp def plus good hp, you can hit him with before he do that and well, we have moves that we can use for counter that, example, taunt, safeguard.

I hope I answered your question. 

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5 hours ago, pipo979 said:

You are calling me noob but you don't know a move named "safeguard" do you know the use of that? 

Your solution is one of the worst I ever heard "ban amoongus" god I f you are not good enough for counter a amoongus is no the a problem, I think just put "sleep clause" in doubles is the best solution than "ban amoongus".

You are like the other guys who can't fight againist volcarona and want to ban it, If you are not good enough, don't play pvp or doubles battle :3

it's tier'ing policy to ban the pokemon not the move/complex ban unless the move/comb/whatever is on multiple pokemon who are all uber with it. your suggestion goes against policy for what reason? oh right none. thats why im calling you a noob, you dont know the rules. and to clarify "because this way amoongus doesnt get banned" is favoritism and against policy.

 

safeguard does stop amoongus sleep for 5 turns. amoongus is slow and without trick room you can reliably get off safeguard. but are you running safeguard JUST for amoongus? is it only viable because of amoongus? is this centralizing? maybe. safeguard + swagger is decent in doubles if you can get it off. also safeguard is temporary and being able to reliably switch in a pull it off isnt something most pokemon can do.having to switch the same pokemon in every 4 turns and safeguard turn 5 is fairly predictable and if your opponent just uses this opportunity to kill the safeguard pokemon, you bought a few turns of no sleep at the cost of one of your party members. and if you dont act in this fairly predictable manor amoongus can switch in and now you have to risk your safeguard poke getting put to sleep unless it has insombia or vital spirit. hypno is the only one bulky enough to pull this off and hes not exactly viable right now with so many dark and ghost types running around with his mediocre base stats. 

tl;dr safeguard pokes have to proactivly set up and keep up safeguard at all times to deal with amoongus lest they fall alseep and this usually result in taking a lot of damage and not a lot of pokemon can pull it off regularly.

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4 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

it's tier'ing policy to ban the pokemon not the move/complex ban unless the move/comb/whatever is on multiple pokemon who are all uber with it. your suggestion goes against policy for what reason? oh right none. thats why im calling you a noob, you dont know the rules. and to clarify "because this way amoongus doesnt get banned" is favoritism and against policy.

 

safeguard does stop amoongus sleep for 5 turns. amoongus is slow and without trick room you can reliably get off safeguard. but are you running safeguard JUST for amoongus? is it only viable because of amoongus? is this centralizing? maybe. safeguard + swagger is decent in doubles if you can get it off. also safeguard is temporary and being able to reliably switch in a pull it off isnt something most pokemon can do.having to switch the same pokemon in every 4 turns and safeguard turn 5 is fairly predictable and if your opponent just uses this opportunity to kill the safeguard pokemon, you bought a few turns of no sleep at the cost of one of your party members. and if you dont act in this fairly predictable manor amoongus can switch in and now you have to risk your safeguard poke getting put to sleep unless it has insombia or vital spirit. hypno is the only one bulky enough to pull this off and hes not exactly viable right now with so many dark and ghost types running around with his mediocre base stats. 

tl;dr safeguard pokes have to proactivly set up and keep up safeguard at all times to deal with amoongus lest they fall alseep and this usually result in taking a lot of damage and not a lot of pokemon can pull it off regularly.

Safeguard can cover you from any toxic, thunder wave, spore, will o wisp, that moves are you used from many walls in doubles, is not only for amoongus, even they switch amoongus you cover the other moves so, is useful, If you are a noob and don't know how to make a good strat with safeguard atack is not my problem, thats why i call you noob, even they change amoongus, you can protect from the hax too, like they use Heat wave and the burn your pokemon, safeguard can be used by many walls pokemon so, I think you know nothing about good strats in doubles battle, again, If you are no good enough to create a good strat that cover your pokemon from amoongus and can make it useful, don't play doubles.

I think you don't know about double battles in pokemmo, I'm not gonna waste more time with a noob like you, they don't gonna ban amoongus, maybe, MAYBE, will make doubles battles with sleep clause but, no more cause, is not viable ban a single pokemon just cause people like cry every time some use amoongus againist you, that's why we don't have ubers in this gen, cause guys like cries for everything, have a nice day, make a good strat and stop being a crying baby, good luck, see ya in a CC doubles tournament, team tournament or any other doubles tournament, bye and please try to be better :3 

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4 hours ago, fredrichnietze said:

also gb if you removed spore form the game it would also not be op. if you changed his hp to 10 it wouldnt even be viable. just because something is A solution does not make it the right solution. 

The right solution should imo be what fixes the overall problem which I believe is the sleep spaming, not just Amoongus. Amoongus is more centralising than other sleep spammers because it outclasses and counters most of them that are also not great without the full implementation of certain mechanics. Imo, if Amoongus gets banned, another sleep spammer will take over sooner or later and we will have this kind of conversation all over again.

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From Rendiz:

Quote

As previously mentioned the main issue with sleep is that we don't have enough counters for it. That coupled with a slower paced meta than VGC (6v6 vs 4v4 and lack of lots of important offensive mons and gems) this gives sleep users far too many oppurtunities to set up sleep.

 

At the moment there are very limited counters to sleep. Safeguard and taunt are both options but you are forced to use them before your opponent is able to set up trick room for amoonguss or sun for lilligant or else you will just get spored before you set them up. Lum berries work but you will probably need to multiple mons with lum berry for this to be a very effective answer which just feels bad to do. Having 2 potential grass types can work, but a mix of overlapping weaknesses and lack of viable grass types makes this a bad option most of the time.

 

Sleep counters that currently aren't implemented or working as intended:
Prankster - taunt, encore or safeguard to shut down amoonguss and other sleep userscompletely.
Status Orbs - gives you free switches onto spore / sleep powder slots.
Overcoat - Immune to the most common sleep moves.
Grass types - In theory we should be able to switch a grass type in for spore immunity and for them to threaten amoonguss' partner. But due to rage powder being bugged and redirecting grass mons as well they end up being hard walled by rage powder instead.
Gems - These will be really important in helping offensive / standard teams beat amoonguss trick room teams. Most of the common trick room mons atm are too bulky to be easily ohkod and can set up TR far too easily. Gems will give you a much better shot at killing the trick room setters before they set up TR and flying gem for acrobatics will help a lot in taking out amoonguss.
Vital spirit - Immune to sleep.

 

All of this considered, by far the most reliable answer to sleep is amooonguss (the main exception being lilligant since its paired with torkoal most of the time) since it can protect its partner from spore. Being almost forced to put amoonguss on your team every game regardless of what strategy the rest of your team is going for. This is incredibly restricting for team building and needs to be addressed.

 

I see people saying we should ban amoonguss instead of banning sleep but imo that really isnt the solution. Of the missing counters listed above only one of them is arguably exclusive to amoonguss and even then that isn't the case. We are missing sleep counters in general not just amoonguss counters. If we ban amoonguss people will start running parasect instead since it also has super low base speed as well as access to spore and rage powder and then we encounter the same problem. Not to mention just how scary lilligant is, people are just sleeping on it atm because of no after you.

 

The main issue from here is will adding sleep clause make anything unviable? I think the answer to this is mostly no. Sleep is still an extremely powerful status and can give huge tempo swings and most sleep users will continue to use sleep moves. Amoonguss will still be an insane support and will still be on almost every TR team. Lilligant will still be on every sun team with the same set. Parasect still will have a niche on rain teams and was mostly used for rage powder anyway. Sash breloom and smeargle are both fairly unlikely to get multiple spores off and it probably won't affect them much. Bulky breloom is probably the only thing that may be hit negatively by this (scarfloom is a meme, fight me).

 

In its current broken state I see no defence for continuing not to have sleep clause for doubles. Perhaps this topic can be revisited at a later date when more answers are implemented, alternatively we can just add sleep clause and leave it forever because sleep is a giant rng abomination and shouldn't exist.

edit: Also @FNTCZ says +1

Edited by gbwead

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I think it's noteworthy to understand that Sleep Clause has become such a "standard" in competitive play in PokeMMO that putting it in isn't really such a reach just to deal with Amoonguss being broken. The thing about sleep is that it's such a stupid roll of dice with little to no counterplay besides Grass-types (which ironically are the other sleep inducers) and that ironically results in an infinite loop for people using sleep inducers because people use sleep inducers and that would remain whether Amoonguss was there or not. People would just start using Parasect in Trick Room teams and Breloom on fast ones. Having sleep spam allowed doesn't exactly add any strategic value to the competitive game at all considering how OP and luck-reliant it is and having Sleep Clause to reduce this doesn't seem like a bad option to reduce it as like I said, it's such a standard in PokeMMO that no one would feel like it's gimmicky way to deal with the situation in any sort of way.

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@gbwead

@Senile

@Gunthug

@BurntZebra

 

Is there any discussion going on about sleep clause in doubles? The PSL showed that the meta prospered without Amoongus spamming spore every turn. I know there haven't been many doubles events recently, but with the upcoming TT including doubles can we get a decision? A large part of the doubles community have expressed their interest in seeing this change implemented, as you can see above. 

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