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So what i wanna discuss are a few problems in pvp on this game.

 

1- Volcarona being used normally while not having a real counter (many Pokemon are missing)

2-People running around with 4-5 tanks and the game is missing wall breakers, mixed attackers

3-Outrage low Base power? why?

4-Hydreigon+ draco meteor is banned

5- Hidden Abilities non existent make some Pokemon run rampant

6-Sleep counter not reseting while switching out

7-Serene Grace not working properly

8-Dragon rush Accuracy is bugged, used it more than 80 times missed way more than 25%

9-Burn damage nerfed to follow Gen 7( makes no sense since we need that extra 6,25% damage in a gen filled with Physical attacker/walls)

10- Confusion rate is not 50% ? why?

 

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12 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

3-Outrage low Base power? why?

TO keep dragons out of ubers

 

12 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

6-Sleep counter not reseting while switching out

Dumb mechanic that was changed even before Unova iirc

 

13 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

7-Serene Grace not working properly

Explain?

 

13 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

8-Dragon rush Accuracy is bugged, used it more than 80 times missed way more than 25%

Learn what RNG is

 

13 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

9-Burn damage nerfed to follow Gen 7( makes no sense since we need that extra 6,25% damage in a gen filled with Physical attacker/walls)

10- Confusion rate is not 50% ? why?

To stay consistent with other Gen 7 mechanics.

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45 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

4-Hydreigon+ draco meteor is banned

The tutor for Draco Meteor is still missing afaik

45 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

5- Hidden Abilities non existent make some Pokemon run rampant

Hidden Abilities will be implemented (soon™ and probably over time)

 

 

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1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

 

 

1- Volcarona being used normally while not having a real counter (many Pokemon are missing)

i mean if you let is set up yeah. but dont let it set up lel

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

2-People running around with 4-5 tanks and the game is missing wall breakers, mixed attackers

mmos just full of walleros and no one runs HO because they hate fun

 

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

3-Outrage low Base power? why?

because we dont have shit that would check that 

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

4-Hydreigon+ draco meteor is banned

theres a prize hydreigon with draco and the tutor isnt out yet for everyone else

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

5- Hidden Abilities non existent make some Pokemon run rampant

Soon

 

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

6-Sleep counter not reseting while switching out

Welcome to gen 7 mechanics

 

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

7-Serene Grace not working properly

shhhh they dont want us to talk about that 

 

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

8-Dragon rush Accuracy is bugged, used it more than 80 times missed way more than 25%

Unfort

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

9-Burn damage nerfed to follow Gen 7( makes no sense since we need that extra 6,25% damage in a gen filled with Physical attacker/walls)

Please enjoy

 

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

10- Confusion rate is not 50% ? why?

Your stay

 

 

formatting pls

Edited by DeadGorilla
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1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

1- Volcarona being used normally while not having a real counter (many Pokemon are missing)

What? Mantine? Tentacruel? Milotic? Any fire type?

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

2-People running around with 4-5 tanks and the game is missing wall breakers, mixed attackers

What? I almost only see hyper offensive teams

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

6-Sleep counter not reseting while switching out

9-Burn damage nerfed to follow Gen 7( makes no sense since we need that extra 6,25% damage in a gen filled with Physical attacker/walls)

10- Confusion rate is not 50% ? why?

Because it's better like it already is?

 

1 hour ago, jpshadow said:

8-Dragon rush Accuracy is bugged, used it more than 80 times missed way more than 25%

KEK

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First let me just say that it's almost always a bad idea to post a giant group of suggestions/complaints like this, because people are much less likely to address each separate point with a lot of attention and focus. Most of what you said isn't a real complaint, for example, so it completely takes the air out of your tires for your actual complaints. 

 

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

So what i wanna discuss are a few problems in pvp on this game.

 

1- Volcarona being used normally while not having a real counter (many Pokemon are missing)

If you think volcarona is overpowered, use the OU tier discussion request thread to request a discussion about potentially moving it up to Ubers.

 

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

2-People running around with 4-5 tanks and the game is missing wall breakers, mixed attackers

There's no remedy for this non-issue

 

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

3-Outrage low Base power? why?

the increased base power was a large factor in several popular dragons being banned in gen 5 (and more up my alley, gen 4). By keeping the power low, we're experimenting with not having to ban these dragons like Mence and Dnite, while also leaving the door open to potentially increase the power down the road if it proves to be an issue. You don't wanna start with 120, then nerf it - people will lose their minds. 

 

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

4-Hydreigon+ draco meteor is banned

huge difference between banned and not available

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

5- Hidden Abilities non existent make some Pokemon run rampant

nothing we can do about this

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

6-Sleep counter not reseting while switching out

horrific feature that we decided not to include for this gen because why would we?

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

7-Serene Grace not working properly

interesting point, especially after being directed to orange's thread. Issue for another section, though

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

8-Dragon rush Accuracy is bugged, used it more than 80 times missed way more than 25%

very unlikely to be anything more than bad luck

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

9-Burn damage nerfed to follow Gen 7( makes no sense since we need that extra 6,25% damage in a gen filled with Physical attacker/walls)

that's not a good enough reason NOT to update the mechanics for it. Do better

2 hours ago, jpshadow said:

10- Confusion rate is not 50% ? why?

 

why should it be? You need to provide better arguments with your stated complaints

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3 hours ago, notmudkip0 said:

Explain?

It was tested already, the chances are not exactly double, there's a topic somewhere in general discussion about it,  @DeadGorilla dug it out.

 

4 hours ago, jpshadow said:

Volcarona being used normally while not having a real counter (many Pokemon are missing)

She has counters, some very viable actually, mantine being a great example.

 

4 hours ago, jpshadow said:

2-People running around with 4-5 tanks and the game is missing wall breakers, mixed attackers

Sorry man I've been playing around with only 1 wall on what I'd call a really offensive team, and had no problem vs wall teams so far. We got wall breakers, mixed attackers, plenty actually.

 

4 hours ago, jpshadow said:

4-Hydreigon+ draco meteor is banned

Only 2 people have access to draco meteor iirc, from tournament prizes, meaning for other players is unavailable, therefor the ban, to keep it fair for everyone.

 

4 hours ago, jpshadow said:

10- Confusion rate is not 50% ? why?

Because we don't need more RNG into the game(my point of view), but I'd like to listen to yours.

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1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

First let me just say that it's almost always a bad idea to post a giant group of suggestions/complaints like this, because people are much less likely to address each separate point with a lot of attention and focus. Most of what you said isn't a real complaint, for example, so it completely takes the air out of your tires for your actual complaints. 

 

If you think volcarona is overpowered, use the OU tier discussion request thread to request a discussion about potentially moving it up to Ubers.

 

There's no remedy for this non-issue

 

the increased base power was a large factor in several popular dragons being banned in gen 5 (and more up my alley, gen 4). By keeping the power low, we're experimenting with not having to ban these dragons like Mence and Dnite, while also leaving the door open to potentially increase the power down the road if it proves to be an issue. You don't wanna start with 120, then nerf it - people will lose their minds. 

 

huge difference between banned and not available

nothing we can do about this

horrific feature that we decided not to include for this gen because why would we?

interesting point, especially after being directed to orange's thread. Issue for another section, though

very unlikely to be anything more than bad luck

that's not a good enough reason NOT to update the mechanics for it. Do better

why should it be? You need to provide better arguments with your stated complaints

ok, honey you should provide arguments as to why you support such changes that are not available in the Official Pokemon games? Outrage was 120 base power in Gen 5 and all dragons were legal in official Pokemon battles, i don't have anything to explain.

Mixing Gen 7 updated mechanics with Gen 5 is clearly illogical, trying to follow a more advanced gen with different evolution, Pokemon, items...

 what is the point of Changing some RNG and leaving others out? "it is better like this" oh ok lets make scald 60% burn rate, it would be better.

Some of the replies i got were ridiculous, clear indication of fanboyism and ignorance.

Milotic can't counter Volcarona, Mantine suffers with SR+ switch in damage, in addition Volcarona can stall. its main counter was Heatran, that Pokemon is not available.

 

I love the contradiction, "We are keeping up with the new Gen, but outrage is 90 base power etc..." formulate better arguments please.

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11 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

ok, honey you should provide arguments as to why you support such changes that are not available in the Official Pokemon games? Outrage was 120 base power in Gen 5 and all dragons were legal in official Pokemon battles, i don't have anything to explain.

Mixing Gen 7 updated mechanics with Gen 5 is clearly illogical, trying to follow a more advanced gen with different evolution, Pokemon, items...

 what is the point of Changing some RNG and leaving others out? "it is better like this" oh ok lets make scald 60% burn rate, it would be better.

Some of the replies i got were ridiculous, clear indication of fanboyism and ignorance.

Milotic can't counter Volcarona, Mantine suffers with SR+ switch in damage, in addition Volcarona can stall. its main counter was Heatran, that Pokemon is not available.

 

I love the contradiction, "We are keeping up with the new Gen, but outrage is 90 base power etc..." formulate better arguments please.

Honey?

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44 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

ok, honey you should provide arguments as to why you support such changes that are not available in the Official Pokemon games? Outrage was 120 base power in Gen 5 and all dragons were legal in official Pokemon battles, i don't have anything to explain.

OK sweety, PokeMMO hasn't followed official format rulesets or Smogon rules since like forever so like like certain stuff being allowed there doesn't affect MMO at all and like, we're missing a bunch of very punishing legendaries that would stop Outrage spam and we like were trying to keep some dragons outside of Uber. Since nobody seems to be complaining about Dragons getting easy sweeps I'd say the Outrage nerf has kept them balanced, don't you think so darling? 

 

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Mixing Gen 7 updated mechanics with Gen 5 is clearly illogical, trying to follow a more advanced gen with different evolution, Pokemon, items...

Umm dear, PokeMMO always mixed future gen mechanics with current gen mechanics, powder moves stopped affecting Grass types ages ago, learnpools are usually updated to the newest gen and I'm like totally not listing dozens of other similar changes.

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 what is the point of Changing some RNG and leaving others out? "it is better like this" oh ok lets make scald 60% burn rate, it would be better.

Sigh caramel you're so sweet you're giving me diabetes! RNG adds nothing fun to the game and it was considered a healthy change to make. Noone besides you seems to have complained about it but also lowering the confusion rate indirectly buffs Outrage so chances are it's not getting 120 BP any time soon with these conditions, whoops!

 

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Some of the replies i got were ridiculous, clear indication of fanboyism and ignorance.

Milotic can't counter Volcarona, Mantine suffers with SR+ switch in damage, in addition Volcarona can stall. its main counter was Heatran, that Pokemon is not available.

Ummm Heatran doesn't counter Volcarona, sweetheart, it dies to hp ground, Volcarona cannot outstall a Mantine that has toxic and if SR are up on one side with a Mantine around then they are likely on the other side as well meaning the hot bugg is like barely clinging to life ew. Milotic is kind of a good check not really a counter but like it can really ruin Volc's day with a Haze! There's plenty of checks listed in the OU discussion request thread, and you can always wait for Eviolite Chansey!

 

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I love the contradiction, "We are keeping up with the new Gen, but outrage is 90 base power etc..." formulate better arguments please.

Ummmm....honeybuns I'm sorry you cannot click The Button, but alas blame Gamefreak instead, they went waaaaay too crazy by making Outrage a 120 BP move! It was like so crazy that their fix was to add a whole new type that was immune to Dragon to stop them from tearing through teams apart too easily! Like 4drag2mag would be soooooooooo lame here and everyone would want mence and stuff banned, I hope you get it "honey".

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17 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

I just faced a team of Skarm Bliss an Hippo.

this is prob the 4th one today.

edit 4 walls he just said he has Jellicent as well. rofl

Individual cases like this brings literally no value to the argument and has no context. If you really want to take individual games to support your argument (if usage stats are insufficient information for some reason), you should probably at least make the analysis from high level gameplay. If you honestly see that a vast majority of official finals has been won with heavy stall team then your argument could have some merit but just saying "I just some people bringing 4 mons of their choice" doesn't mean anything.

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11 hours ago, suigin said:

. Since nobody seems to be complaining about Dragons getting easy sweeps I'd say the Outrage nerf has kept them balanced, don't you think so darling? 

 

Sorry to disagree. People not complaining about sweeping dragons doesnt mean dragons would ez sweep with 120 bp outrage either.

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10 minutes ago, pachima said:

Sorry to disagree. People not complaining about sweeping dragons doesnt mean dragons would ez sweep with 120 bp outrage either.

But that's not his main argument.

This is.

Quote

but alas blame Gamefreak instead, they went waaaaay too crazy by making Outrage a 120 BP move! It was like so crazy that their fix was to add a whole new type that was immune to Dragon to stop them from tearing through teams apart too easily!

Do you agree with his statement that 120 bp outrage makes it considerably easier for dragons to sweep over the current 90 bp outrage?

 

Trying to pick apart one sentence which isn't even the main gist of the post, just to push your own agenda is pretty stupid and you should know better.

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1 minute ago, Tyrone said:

But that's not his main argument.

This is.

Do you agree with his statement that 120 bp outrage makes it considerably easier for dragons to sweep over the current 90 bp outrage?

 

Trying to pick apart one sentence which isn't even the main gist of the post, just to push your own agenda is pretty stupid and you should know better.

1- His statement is not 120 bp outrage makes it easier, his statement is that it makes it stupid, theres a difference (Stupid= op) which I cant rly see it is

2- Fairy types nerf dragon mons, not outrage in particular.

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51 minutes ago, pachima said:

1- His statement is not 120 bp outrage makes it easier, his statement is that it makes it stupid, theres a difference (Stupid= op) which I cant rly see it is

2- Fairy types nerf dragon mons, not outrage in particular.

Ye, but what makes dragon pokemon better is 120bp outrage.

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1 minute ago, Opte said:

Ye, but what makes dragon pokemon better is 120bp outrage.

Wrong! What makes dragons op are their amazing stats, making them amazing wallbreakers while retaining their bulk, with few weaknesses. Fairies grant them one notable weakness, therefore nerfing them (This has not to do with outrage itself). What makes dragons op are their amazing coverage, which again fariies nerf to the point of making them replace one of those coverage moves. What makes dragons op is not outrage op, but stuff like draco meteor also, which fairies just take like it was nothing. Outrage, however, its a double edged sword. You can argue fairies nerfed outrage but in fact, fairies made outrage lose its most exploitable weakness, which is the lock down condition.

The flawed argument I see here is: "Gamefreak knew outrage was op, therefore they created fairies" No, gamefreak knew dragons´s versatlity was op, and there they created fairies. If they wanted to target outrage, they wouldn´t remove the one thing that makes it not op (Lock down conditions)

If you are concerned about outrage spam, then fairies doesnt stop it a little. Steels do, but those we already have here. 

Also, @suigin if you wanna make an argument over why heatran doesnt stop volca cause hp ground, you shouldnt mention mantine cause hp electric is a thing too.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Opte said:

Ye, but what makes dragon pokemon better is 120bp outrage.

That and the stupid Draco Meteor that I wish we could have nerfed slightly more, but sadly Gamefreak only provided with 130 BP or 140 BP

3 hours ago, jpshadow said:

I just faced a team of Skarm Bliss an Hippo.

this is prob the 4th one today.

edit 4 walls he just said he has Jellicent as well. rofl

That team so far explodes to Reuniclus, Hydreigon, Conkeldurr and with some skill Lucario (Just one, not all of them at once). PokeMMO players have always thought that Blissey/Chansey + fat physically defensive mons were the pinnacle of team building however that makes them extremely predictable with their switch ins,

 

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Also, @suigin if you wanna make an argument over why heatran doesnt stop volca cause hp ground, you shouldnt mention mantine cause hp electric is a thing too.

I never said Mantine was a hard counter though, I just said it could stall Volcarona too when jpshadow said it was impossible for it.

Edited by suigin
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complaints, complaints and more complaints, enjoy the game that is free, if you do not like things, you can play pokemon showdown, and also the developers already have a direction for this game and I doubt they change it.

Spoiler

I agree with many things you propose, but it is useless for anyone to do anything to correct them.

 

 

The priority is to sell RP!.

 

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Thank you for the replies, some people really helped me understand a few points that I missed, this should help me in the future, since i like the game and plan on still playing it.

 

The only 2 points I wish to stress is that there is only 1 Volcarona counters, as for the person that is saying Heatran does not counter her, when have you ever seen Volcarona running HP ground? that is not really an argument,(every poke can use any HP to counter) Blissey seems to be the only counter, while  Milotic dies to Giga drain, Mantine will attempt to stall with haze and Toxic but it is risky.

 

the second point i wish to discuss furthermore is outrage base power. I never had problems with dragons in this game, they have so many counters...(based on my exp)

 

On 2/1/2018 at 2:55 PM, OrangeManiac said:

Individual cases like this brings literally no value to the argument and has no context. If you really want to take individual games to support your argument (if usage stats are insufficient information for some reason), you should probably at least make the analysis from high level gameplay. If you honestly see that a vast majority of official finals has been won with heavy stall team then your argument could have some merit but just saying "I just some people bringing 4 mons of their choice" doesn't mean anything.

not an individual case, 3 weeks till now i have suffered from this issue(20+ players), people are using Skarm/bliss and another 2 tanks because of a lack in mix attackers. If you only take into consideration the finals that is another issue, because it neglects 99% of the player base. Variables such a luck and RNG also take place, i am speaking of personnel experience and i bet more than half of the people here are using Skarm/Bliss for a reason. 

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36 minutes ago, jpshadow said:

Thank you for the replies, some people really helped me understand a few points that I missed, this should help me in the future, since i like the game and plan on still playing it.

 

The only 2 points I wish to stress is that there is only 1 Volcarona counters, as for the person that is saying Heatran does not counter her, when have you ever seen Volcarona running HP ground? that is not really an argument,(every poke can use any HP to counter) Blissey seems to be the only counter, while  Milotic dies to Giga drain, Mantine will attempt to stall with haze and Toxic but it is risky.

 

the second point i wish to discuss furthermore is outrage base power. I never had problems with dragons in this game, they have so many counters...(based on my exp)

 

not an individual case, 3 weeks till now i have suffered from this issue(20+ players), people are using Skarm/bliss and another 2 tanks because of a lack in mix attackers. If you only take into consideration the finals that is another issue, because it neglects 99% of the player base. Variables such a luck and RNG also take place, i am speaking of personnel experience and i bet more than half of the people here are using Skarm/Bliss for a reason. 

Your personal experience is meaningless because it's likely on the bottom of matchmaking or in the early rounds of tournaments  (no offense, honey). I mean, look at your argument for buffing outrage: "I've never had problems with dragons" c'mon man do better. That's a horrible argument. How about some calcs? How about listing counters for mence/dnite/hax/hydr with 120 outrage?

 

If you can't even find a way to work around skarnbliss then your opinion on this subject is incredibly suspect and you probably need beginner comp lessons 

Edited by Gunthug
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3 hours ago, jpshadow said:

The only 2 points I wish to stress is that there is only 1 Volcarona counters, as for the person that is saying Heatran does not counter her, when have you ever seen Volcarona running HP ground? that is not really an argument,(every poke can use any HP to counter)

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/volcarona/ 

First set.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-12/moveset/gen7ou-1695.txt

27% of Volcs use hp Ground at this elo range.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-12/moveset/gen7ou-1825.txt

33% use it at this range.

I use these stats because in this meta weather was nerfed compared to gen5's weather wars in which Volc seemed to rather use HP Water to get a sick boost from rain and because gen6 had Talonflame which ruined Volc's day no matter what.

In gen5 OU however 20% of Volcaronas run hp ground.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-12/moveset/gen5ou-1630.txt

And 30% of them do at a higher elo.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-12/moveset/gen5ou-1760.txt

 

However the lack of Heatran does in fact benefit Volc immensely here since it can run another hidden power to cover more ground (heh). But Volcarona not having true counters in a strict sense doesn't mean it's overpowered,  specially since it has a lot of checks both offensive and defensive. I'll give it that it's a tad centralizing but it's both wallable and revenge killable by the right stuff.

 

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the second point i wish to discuss furthermore is outrage base power. I never had problems with dragons in this game, they have so many counters...(based on my exp)

Here we're trying to do two things: To have as few Uber Pokemon as possible and to allow for as much diversity in team building as possible. 120 BP Outrage deters both. Like I said before not only is Outrage buffed from its gen5 incarnation due to confusion occurring 30% of the time instead of 50% but it essentially becomes a nuke that requires a bulky Steel to take, specially after a Dragon Dance/CB boost.

This allows Dragon spam to become a thing, a very powerful and centralizing thing since you can tenderize the opponent's Steel types with a first Dragon and then proceed to set up and sweep with other Dragons. And the worst part is they can always predict with a fire move and nail said Steel type even harder or just have a Mag in the back to weaken or outright remove the Steel type.

Keep in mind we're also counting on having Multiscale Dragonite in the future and since 90BP Outrage seems to have made Mence much more manageable, the original idea of taking Moxie away from it looks a tad bit silly right now and is being reconsidered.

Quote

not an individual case, 3 weeks till now i have suffered from this issue(20+ players), people are using Skarm/bliss and another 2 tanks because of a lack in mix attackers. If you only take into consideration the finals that is another issue, because it neglects 99% of the player base. Variables such a luck and RNG also take place, i am speaking of personnel experience and i bet more than half of the people here are using Skarm/Bliss for a reason. 

The reason is the MMO playerbase usually tends to gravitate towards bulky circlejerks of walls for some reason. This doesn't mean they are good, run a good stallbreaker or a dedicated wallbreaker, they don't need to be mixed. Bulk Up Thunderpunch Conk should beat most of them.

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