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LC Discussion Request Thread


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13 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Nothing besides Mienfoo gets Regenerator, so it's not a complex ban.

And what if someone would like to use Mienfoo in NU or untiered? By potentially fixing one problem we're creating another one. Situation is hypothetical but example is valid (applies to the wobbu situation which was explained by Julian).

 

E:

Unless the "Regenerator" ban just applies for LC then pls disregard

Edited by RysPicz
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3 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

And what if someone would like to use Mienfoo in NU or untiered? By potentially fixing one problem we're creating another one. Situation is hypothetical but example is valid (applies to the wobbu situation which was explained by Julian).

My assumption would be that a flat ban of regenerator in LC would have no affect on "higher tiers" - kind of like how the UU drizzle+swift swim ban in gen 6 didn't affect OU

 

@gbwead I think the issue becomes whether regenerator itself is a broken ability - despite the fact that it only really applies to mienfoo in LC. Under what tiering definition does regenerator qualify as broken or unhealthy, or uncompetitive? 

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35 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

My assumption would be that a flat ban of regenerator in LC would have no affect on "higher tiers" - kind of like how the UU drizzle+swift swim ban in gen 6 didn't affect OU

 

@gbwead I think the issue becomes whether regenerator itself is a broken ability - despite the fact that it only really applies to mienfoo in LC. Under what tiering definition does regenerator qualify as broken or unhealthy, or uncompetitive? 

regenerator mienfoo could be seen as unhealthy because we don't have other regenerator mons to pressure mienfoo back

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

regenerator mienfoo could be seen as unhealthy because we don't have other regenerator mons to pressure mienfoo back

So the argument for banning regenerator in LC is that there aren't enough LC mons with regenerator? That's a strange argument. I think a better line of discussion would be, why is mienfoo so necessary to LC that a flat ban (the most basic, obvious solution) would be problematic?

 

It reminds me of the old curselax ban (except - the facts in this case are actually better, since other mons could learn curse back then and it wasn't problematic on them. What was accomplished then with a complex ban could be accomplished now WITHOUT a complex ban, just a flat regenerator ban). But to arrive at that decision, it was argued for weeks that snorlax was so pivotal to OU that straight up banning snorlax wasn't a good solution

Edited by Gunthug
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6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

So the argument for banning regenerator in LC is that there aren't enough LC mons with regenerator? That's a strange argument. I think a better line of discussion would be, why is mienfoo so necessary to LC that a flat ban (the most basic, obvious solution) would be problematic?

 

It reminds me of the old curselax ban (except - the facts in this case are actually better, since other mons could learn curse back then and it wasn't problematic on them. What was accomplished then with a complex ban could be accomplished now WITHOUT a complex ban, just a flat regenerator ban). But to arrive at that decision, it was argued for weeks that snorlax was so pivotal to OU that straight up banning snorlax wasn't a good solution

Slowpoke and Foogus renegerator are real good counter to mienfoo. And without hidden ability these pokemon are not really viable. That's why mienfoo is broken as the only one regenerator user.
Without his ability he will stay playable with inner focus

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4 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Slowpoke and Foogus renegerator are real good counter to mienfoo. And without hidden ability these pokemon are not really viable. That's why mienfoo is broken as the only one regenerator user.
Without his ability he will stay playable with inner focus

It sounds to me like mienfoo makes regenerator mienfoo broken, as opposed to regenerator making regenerator mienfoo broken. If regenerator will be fine on other mons (once it's implemented) then why is it worthy of a ban now? If regenerator were on spinarak instead of mienfoo, would it be banworthy?

 

Again, it seems like an easy solution to just say "hey if we take regen off mienfoo we can keep it in the tier, lets do it" but think about the precedent you're setting. You said it yourself, would moxie-less scraggy be ok? What about murkrow without brave bird? the list goes on and on. The first, and obvious, solution to a problematic pokemon should be to ban the pokemon. Why is mienfoo so special that this isn't a good solution?

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Just now, Gunthug said:

It sounds to me like mienfoo makes regenerator mienfoo broken, as opposed to regenerator making regenerator mienfoo broken. If regenerator will be fine on other mons (once it's implemented) then why is it worthy of a ban now? If regenerator were on spinarak instead of mienfoo, would it be banworthy?

 

Again, it seems like an easy solution to just say "hey if we take regen off mienfoo we can keep it in the tier, lets do it" but think about the precedent you're setting. You said it yourself, would moxie-less scraggy be ok? What about murkrow without brave bird? the list goes on and on. The first, and obvious, solution to a problematic pokemon should be to ban the pokemon. Why is mienfoo so special that this isn't a good solution?

Without moxie scraggy can still be uber with his moovepool DD/drain/crunch/zen. And all uber have a lot of stuff who make them broken and not playable in LC.
I don't see here a "easy solution". This is not a bad idea to take off regenerator since we didnt know when HA will come in the game.
Mienfoo make regenerator broken in LC since it's already a good pokemon, the real question is why it's not worth to ban it ? Where is the probleme in that suggestion

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2 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Without moxie scraggy can still be uber with his moovepool DD/drain/crunch/zen. And all uber have a lot of stuff who make them broken and not playable in LC.
I don't see here a "easy solution". This is not a bad idea to take off regenerator since we didnt know when HA will come in the game.
Mienfoo make regenerator broken in LC since it's already a good pokemon, the real question is why it's not worth to ban it ? Where is the probleme in that suggestion

regenerator i mean

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33 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

So the argument for banning regenerator in LC is that there aren't enough LC mons with regenerator? That's a strange argument.

There is only one pokemon with Regenerator in LC, so ofc when we are considering a Regenerator Flat Ban in LC, there is only one pokemon that is affected. I believe it would be possible to argue that Regenerator on Mienfoo is unhealthy. LC as a more fast pace offensive tier doesn't have the luxury of good recovery options and most mons need eviolite over leftovers just to have a chance of staying alive. Regenerator for this reason is a huge advantage over all other mons of the tier. Would Regenerator be unhealthy if other mons beside Mienfoo had access to it? Probably not since the enormous advantage Mienfoo has over all other mons would no longer be so special, it would no longer be as big as an advantage.

 

33 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I think a better line of discussion would be, why is mienfoo so necessary to LC that a flat ban (the most basic, obvious solution) would be problematic?

LC has more bans than any other tier. There is a serious chain ban concern in LC. I personally fear that banning Mienfoo would result in Porygon, a remarkable threat, becoming overwhelming. 

 

I personally believe that banning Mienfoo or Regenerator in LC would be a bad idea for this reason. As unhealthy as Mienfoo can be, it's probably better to keep it around because without it, there is imo a very good chance everything gets worse. Furthermore, I feel it's a shame that Trubbish, one of the best Mienfoo check is still suffering from a Recycle bug that keeps it from doing its job. Mienfoo would probably still remain unhealthy if Trubbish became more viable, but the meta would probably be slightly better.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Without moxie scraggy can still be uber with his moovepool DD/drain/crunch/zen. And all uber have a lot of stuff who make them broken and not playable in LC.
I don't see here a "easy solution". This is not a bad idea to take off regenerator since we didnt know when HA will come in the game.
Mienfoo make regenerator broken in LC since it's already a good pokemon, the real question is why it's not worth to ban it ? Where is the probleme in that suggestion

I see an "easy solution" - ban mienfoo. Why is that not acceptable? You said it yourself - mienfoo  makes regenerator broken, not the other way around. Why not just ban mienfoo then? Then, when regenerator gets added to other pokemon, you don't have to worry about the fact that regenerator is banned. It makes the TC's job easier, and its easier on the players since there isn't a confusing rule about which specific versions of mienfoo are allowed.

 

 

 

Banning Types: Flat Bans and Complex Bans

 

There are two types of bans, Flat Bans and Complex Bans. Flat bans are used for general situations, when a pokemon, move, ability, etc. meet some sort of banning criteria, at which point, they are banned in their entirety. However, in complex situations where a flat ban would be either ineffective or heavily unfavorable for some reason, complex bans can be used. Typically, these are used for a situation where one specific issue cannot be sorted out

___________________________________________________________________________

 

So my question is, why is this a situation where a flat ban would be 1. ineffective, or 2. heavily unfavorable?

 

If the argument is "well it's not a complex ban, it's actually just a flat ban on regenerator" then my question is, why is regenerator broken? If you have to say the word "mienfoo" in your answer, then it's mienfoo that's broken, not regenerator.

 

You said in your post "where is the problem in that suggestion (to ban regenerator)" - the problem is, it sets a bad precedent moving forward. The TC will forever be able to look at mons that are problematic/unhealthy/banworthy, and say "hmm maybe we can just get rid of X move/ability/stat and we can keep the pokemon in the tier." Then, weeks of discussion about which move/ability/stat to change or remove, etc etc. If mienfoo is so important to LC that it needs to be in the tier, fine. But I haven't seen that argument yet, no one has even ATTEMPTED it!

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1 minute ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Well by that logic then there's only 1 pokemon in LC with Pure Power, which is Meditite. So by banning regenerator to keep Mienfoo in LC, you should also ban Pure Power and bring back Meditite. Really bad precedent to set there. 

We can do that, but Meditite only has one ability...

 

4 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

the problem is, it sets a bad precedent moving forward.

it's too late for that

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2 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Well by that logic then there's only 1 pokemon in LC with Pure Power, which is Meditite. So by banning regenerator to keep Mienfoo in LC, you should also ban Pure Power and bring back Meditite. Really bad precedent to set there. 

see if I knew anything about LC i would have caught this literally perfect analogy already. good shit

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2 hours ago, gbwead said:

LC has more bans than any other tier. There is a serious chain ban concern in LC. I personally fear that banning Mienfoo would result in Porygon, a remarkable threat, becoming overwhelming.

This really isn't a valid argument to keep something in the tier. We can cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

it's too late for that

Its really not. As far as im aware this has only been done to stop OU pokemon becoming ubers. What your doing here, while similar, is a whole new can of worms. Whether you agree or disagree with the whole no ubers thing/altering pokemon in OU, its easy enough to see why its being done. It doesnt really make any sense to do in lower tiers as those pokemon can still be used. (if that has actually been done in uu/nu big lol)

 

 

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Legit question: Where the rest of TC members?

 

Anyway, complex banning sets a really bad precedent in this case. Either ban mienfoo or dont at all. There are plenty of other fighting mons that are overshadowed by regenerator and may see light once mienfoo is gone, so the chainbanning thing might not be an issue in this case.

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When I suggested banning Regenerator in LC, I took into consideration the fact that there has been a long ongoing trend in which there were attempts to fix the tiers without banning the actual pokemons.

Exemples:

-Banning the access to Draco Meteor instead of Hydreigon

-Banning the effect of Sand veil in OU and not Garchomp.

-Banning Arena trap in LC instead of Diglet and Trapinch

-Nerfing Baton pass instead of banning it.

 

I disagree with most of the decisions made so far, but i was simply coherent in the method chosen when i suggested a ban of Regenerator in LC, i also took into consideration the fact that Mienfoo "might" be useful in the meta, and might keep some balance, and the less the Pokedex entry is, the less fun it is. But we can't be sure until we try I guess.

 

Therefore I'm in favour of a test-ban on Mienfoo / test-ban on Regenerator, whichever suit the devs as they're the ones who decide anyway, but the 70%+ usage is ridiculous and something should be done about it. 

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3 hours ago, Laz said:

When I suggested banning Regenerator in LC, I took into consideration the fact that there has been a long ongoing trend in which there were attempts to fix the tiers without banning the actual pokemons.

Exemples:

-Banning the access to Draco Meteor instead of Hydreigon

-Banning the effect of Sand veil in OU and not Garchomp.

-Banning Arena trap in LC instead of Diglet and Trapinch

-Nerfing Baton pass instead of banning it.

 

I disagree with most of the decisions made so far, but i was simply coherent in the method chosen when i suggested a ban of Regenerator in LC, i also took into consideration the fact that Mienfoo "might" be useful in the meta, and might keep some balance, and the less the Pokedex entry is, the less fun it is. But we can't be sure until we try I guess.

 

Therefore I'm in favour of a test-ban on Mienfoo / test-ban on Regenerator, whichever suit the devs as they're the ones who decide anyway, but the 70%+ usage is ridiculous and something should be done about it. 

I totally understand this argument, and in fact one of my biggest problems with the "fixes" you mentioned is exactly where we're at now - they all set bad precedents for future action.

 

I will try to distinguish the things you mentioned, though:

1. draco meteor on hydreigon - this was done in a misguided attempt to prevent removing hydreigon from basically all competitive formats. The logic was that, if hydrei was allowed draco meteor, it would be banned from OU and therefore basically useless in MMO. I'll note that this was, imo, the worst decision TC ever made* and I do not endorse it at all, but an LC ban is certainly different because mienfoo would still theoretically be useable in other tiers.

 

2. sand veil ban in OU/arena trap ban in LC: this, i think, is the most important distinction. Sand Veil/Arena Trap are abilities that are inherently uncompetitive, no matter what pokemon they're on. I don't want to get dragged into a huge argument on whether or not they're uncompetitive, but this separates them from regenerator entirely, which most people agree is not problematic on a lot of the mons that get it.

 

3. nerfing BP instead of banning it: i changed my mind, THIS is the worst decision TC has ever made*

 

Anyway, my point is, while there's precedent to make a bad decision re: this "complex" ban (I get it, gb, it's not technically a complex ban yet), I still think the prior decisions are different enough to where we can't justify it in this case

 

*note: not actually decided by TC, but by the devs who are pretty consistent in their terrible decision making. 

Edited by Gunthug
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3 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I totally understand this argument, and in fact one of my biggest problems with the "fixes" you mentioned is exactly where we're at now - they all set bad precedents for future action.

 

I will try to distinguish the things you mentioned, though:

1. draco meteor on hydreigon - this was done in a misguided attempt to prevent removing hydreigon from basically all competitive formats. The logic was that, if hydrei was allowed draco meteor, it would be banned from OU and therefore basically useless in MMO. I'll note that this was, imo, the worst decision TC ever made* and I do not endorse it at all, but an LC ban is certainly different because mienfoo would still theoretically be useable in other tiers.

 

2. sand veil ban in OU/arena trap ban in LC: this, i think, is the most important distinction. Sand Veil/Arena Trap are abilities that are inherently uncompetitive, no matter what pokemon they're on. I don't want to get dragged into a huge argument on whether or not they're uncompetitive, but this separates them from regenerator entirely, which most people agree is not problematic on a lot of the mons that get it.

 

3. nerfing BP instead of banning it: i changed my mind, THIS is the worst decision TC has ever made*

 

Anyway, my point is, while there's precedent to make a bad decision re: this "complex" ban (I get it, gb, it's not technically a complex ban yet), I still think the prior decisions are different enough to where we can't justify it in this case

 

*note: not actually decided by TC, but by the devs who are pretty consistent in their terrible decision making. 

1 TC never agreed to Draco Meteor getting removed from Hydreigon movepool.

2. The Sand Veil ban is the most unjustified tiering action devs have taken with the support of TC. A shit ton of stuff is uncompetitive in pokemon battling. In order for something to get ban as uncompetitive, it needs to be insanely uncompetitive and game breaking. Ice Beam Freeze, Rock Slide Flinch and Togekiss as a whole are a million times more uncompetitive than Sand Veil in a non perma-weather metagame. For 7 years, we have seen people complain about Freezes and Flinches, but I have never seen anywhere on this forum someone ask for a Sand Veil/Snow Cloak ban. The only reason why this foolish idea came to surface is because Garchomp, a pokemon that fits offensive uber characteristics perfectly, needed to be "nerfed" and the problem with this nerf is that it had almost 0 impact in nerfing what made Garchomp actually broken.

3 Well, I was and still am against this decision.

 

Like I said the precedent has already been set for complex bans/complex nerfs. Fortunetly, there is nothing complex about flat banning an ability for being unhealthy in LC. If Munchlax was the only pokemon in LC with access to Berry Juice, it would create some serious inbalances and prevent half the tier from getting a recovery option. Munchlax would not be broken, but in a metagame with 0 recovery available, Berry Juice would have to get banned over Munchlax getting banned. There is no need to ban Mienfoo when Regenerator is what allows it in our metagame to be so insanely strong. Would Mienfoo still be powerful with Regenerator? Absolutely. However, it would not be unhealthy or even come close to being unhealthy. 

 

Like I said, I am against a regenerator ban or Mienfoo ban in LC. But if I have to choose between those 2 options, I would choose to ban Regenerator without hesitation.

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4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

1 TC never agreed to Draco Meteor getting removed from Hydreigon movepool.

2. The Sand Veil ban is the most unjustified tiering action devs have taken with the support of TC. A shit ton of stuff is uncompetitive in pokemon battling. In order for something to get ban as uncompetitive, it needs to be insanely uncompetitive and game breaking. Ice Beam Freeze, Rock Slide Flinch and Togekiss as a whole are a million times more uncompetitive than Sand Veil in a non perma-weather metagame. For 7 years, we have seen people complain about Freezes and Flinches, but I have never seen anywhere on this forum someone ask for a Sand Veil/Snow Cloak ban. The only reason why this foolish idea came to surface is because Garchomp, a pokemon that fits offensive uber characteristics perfectly, needed to be "nerfed" and the problem with this nerf is that it had almost 0 impact in nerfing what made Garchomp actually broken.

3 Well, I was and still am against this decision.

 

Like I said the precedent has already been set for complex bans/complex nerfs. Fortunetly, there is nothing complex about flat banning an ability for being unhealthy in LC. If Munchlax was the only pokemon in LC with access to Berry Juice, it would create some serious inbalances and prevent half the tier from getting a recovery option. Munchlax would not be broken, but in a metagame with 0 recovery available, Berry Juice would have to get banned over Munchlax getting banned. There is no need to ban Mienfoo when Regenerator is what allows it in our metagame to be so insanely strong. Would Mienfoo still be powerful with Regenerator? Absolutely. However, it would not be unhealthy or even come close to being unhealthy. 

 

Like I said, I am against a regenerator ban or Mienfoo ban in LC. But if I have to choose between those 2 options, I would choose to ban Regenerator without hesitation.

You're extremely wrong about sand veil but that isn't the point of this particular discussion so I won't belabor the point. On 1, notice my asterisk where i acknowledge that it wasnt TC's decision, I get that. But my point remains that the "logic" behind not wanting something in Uber is different than not wanting something banned in LC

 

I don't at all agree with your munchlax comparison, as berry juice is a ubiquitous item that provides the vast majority of the tier with access to useful recovery. Regenerator, on the other hand, is an ability only accessible to a max of what, 3 pokemon when its all said and done? And it doesn't seem like it will be problematic on 2 of the 3, but could very easily stil be problematic on the third. I personally fail to see how slowpoke/foongus with regen will stop mienfoo from doing exactly what it does best, which is keep momentum with a strong u-turn which chunks both of those passive switch-ins every single time.

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12 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I don't at all agree with your munchlax comparison, as berry juice is a ubiquitous item that provides the vast majority of the tier with access to useful recovery. Regenerator, on the other hand, is an ability only accessible to a max of what, 3 pokemon when its all said and done? And it doesn't seem like it will be problematic on 2 of the 3, but could very easily stil be problematic on the third. I personally fail to see how slowpoke/foongus with regen will stop mienfoo from doing exactly what it does best, which is keep momentum with a strong u-turn which chunks both of those passive switch-ins every single time.

That's my point. If Munchlax was the only user, it would be in the exact same situation. Foongus and Slowpoke have no relevant part in this discussion.

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14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

That's my point. If Munchlax was the only user, it would be in the exact same situation. Foongus and Slowpoke have no relevant part in this discussion.

But they do - you're saying that, in your hypothetical, berry juice munchlax would be fine in a meta where everything could use berry juice, but when only munchlax gets it, it's a problem. I'm telling you that's a different scenario, as even the future (maybe?) introduction of other regenerator users may not cure the mienfoo issue

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