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LC Discussion Request Thread


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I think deepseatooth item should be banned, because everything is 2hkod, if not ohkoed on the switch, i ain't even talking about shell smash, clamp doesn't even need it, it just spams surf and guarantees a kill on literally everything that switches against it. It's imo uncompetitive, you can play around omanyte/dwebble/shellder, but clamp beats everything without any effort, doesn't even need prediction, which is the definition of uber i guess. Idc if TC prefers to ban Clamperl as a whole, as long as we don't get to see clamp with deepseatooth in LC anymore.

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Most people will agree that within LC, Misdreavus, Mienfoo, Diglett and Clamperl are an issue one way or another. With it not being too uncommon to two or more in one team.

 

Misdreavus has "in general" difficulties dealing with Munchlax and Porygon.

Mienfoo has a rough time against poison types like Grimer, Trubbish, Tentacool. With the first two being immume vs Knock off, a move most Mienfoo's carry.

Diglett can take reasonably safely take care of the pokes Mienfoo has issues dealing with, combined with the fact that it gets Memento, it gives Clamperl a good chance of setting up / attacking.

Clamperl with Deepseatooth, Protect, Hp Fire/ Hp Electric, Surf, Ice beam, Shell Smash. With a combination of four of those moves it can delete entire teams, only a handful of pokes live +2.

 

+2 timid Clamperl is outsped by 18 or higher speed scarfers, of which there aren't many, though Misdreavus is included in that list.

 

The reason I brought up Misdreavus and not one of the other three, is due the fact that to defend against Misdreavus someone is almost forced to run either Porygon or Munchlax, that compared with before mentioned 19 speed, you either have to risk a speed tie and most likely not 1hk0 Misdreavus, while dying yourself. Or take one of the three 20 speed pokes and have them tickle it.

 

LifeStyle mentioned Misdreavus holding the tier together, while there is an argument to be made there. It is also arguable that it makes the tier significantly more unhealthy. It restricts three great ghost types from being able to shine. Those being Yamask, Frillish and Gastly.

 

Yamask has a quite decent match up vs Mienfoo with the ability Mummy.

Frillish doesn't like that Mienfoo isnt a gentleman with the Knock Off and U-Turn, it can still emotionally recover from it.

Gastly in the currently meta is a weaker Misdreavus but with Poison Type and access to Giga Drain, other than that both movesets are quite similar. Yes, the special attack is higher than Misdreavus, the other stats are lower, especially the defenses. The difference between 18 and 19 speed is quite significant.

 

LifeStyle also mentioned the fact that LC might not have a big enough playerbase to take the blow of the ban. People will adapt there are on average two to three LC tourneys a week, most of them are filled. People did adapt with the 3 month Diglett test ban by using more poison and electric types and Trapinch.

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Well you can't really compare Misdreavus with Diglett though. One almost completely defines the whole metagame and the other is just used to trap and remove certain threats. Adjusting to a Misdreavus ban will be much harder than to a Diglett ban, imo. On another note, Sinnoh dropping soon will give LC a new Misdreavus check in the form of Stunky (Poison+Dark, access to Pursuit), that can also deal pretty decently with Diglett using its STAB Sucker Punch. It maybe doesn't deal that well vs WoW Misd, but let's be real that's not even close to being Misd's best set.

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Pretty sure I nowhere compared Misdreavus with Diglett. Stunky will be nice to take on most Misdreavus, then again, the latter will most likely get Nasty Plot. Yesterday it was unknown that Sinnoh would hit soon.

 

Stunky Sucker vs Misd

Spoiler
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 23)
252+ Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
252+ Atk Life Orb Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
 
 
Misd vs Stunky
Spoiler
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Stunky: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
+4 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Stunky: 22-27 (95.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27)
+4 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Stunky: 22-27 (95.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27)

 

It would still come down to predicting.

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1 minute ago, Munya said:

With the addition of Sinnoh, Misd gains access to Nasty Plot, and with it already seemingly being an issue is this going to make it even more of one?

Let me make a fun anolagy, the biggest bully on the playground just gets access to a baseball bat, sure he can be taken out, but not without some heavy collaterol.

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"People will adapt there are on average two to three LC tourneys a week, most of them are filled. People did adapt with the 3 month Diglett test ban by using more poison and electric types and Trapinch." This makes it sound like since people adapted to a Diglett ban, they should adapt to a Misdreavus ban as well. Maybe that's not what you meant, but it is what it sounds like. And you forget Stunky can run a defensive trapper set (Careful - 92 HP, 92 Atk, 60 Def, 188 SpD, 4 Spe).

 

+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 92 HP / 188+ SpD Eviolite Stunky: 8-10 (33.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

92 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

92 Atk Stunky Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-12 (34.7 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
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+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 188+ SpD Eviolite Stunky: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (11, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14)
(Stunky has 24 hp with the spread)

 

92 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)

 

92 Atk Stunky Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-12 (34.7 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 12)
That would be 16 damage on the switch with the set you provided
 
unless I'm mistaken the most common outcome 14+8 = 22/23 hp.
 
I do fully agree that Stunky is a solid poke against Misdreavus. That doesn't mean that Nasty Plot Misdreavus isn't busted.
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7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

If the best answer to Misdreavus needs to win a 50/50 prediction, it's not a counter, just a check really...

 

54 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

Sinnoh dropping soon will give LC a new Misdreavus check in the form of Stunky

yes

 

Hydreigon in OU has no counters either, only checks

Edited by LifeStyleNORE
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So previously Porygon had a decent match up vs Misdreavus, with Nasty plot it becomes pretty much useless, now, I did change the 36 hp evs for 36 def evs. There are arguments for both to be played. This gives Misdreavus 22/13 instead of 23/12.

 

Misd uses Nasty Plot,

 

0- Atk Porygon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
 
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.1 - 61.5%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)
 
That would give Stunky the ability to have a good chance within a 1v1 setup
 
Now the second option being Munchlax,
 
236+ Atk Munchlax Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Munchlax: 13-16 (43.3 - 53.3%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

 

+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Munchlax: 18-22 (60 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
 
Same thing with Porygon, though now you have to hope you get a 13 or 14 hit with tbolt to not activate berry juice on lax.
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4 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

 

yes

 

Hydreigon in OU has no counters either, only checks

With 98 base speed there are quite a few pokes to outspeed it, with plenty to 1hk0 it, even without scarf. It is also weak to mach punch of Conk, which seems to be used a fair bit in OU. That is as far as my observation for OU goes, not informed enough to discuss that.

 

Misdreavus with 19 speed, as previous mention doesn't really get outsped, none of the other 19 speed win vs it 1v1, same goes for the 20 speed pokes. You'd have to rely on scarfers, to which it can just switch out.

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Just now, YettoDie said:

With 98 base speed there are quite a few pokes to outspeed it, with plenty to 1hk0 it, even without scarf. It is also weak to mach punch of Conk, which seems to be used a fair bit in OU. That is as far as my observation for OU goes, not informed enough to discuss that.

Yes, those are checks. Not counters. Hydreigon isn't really relevant to this discussion, I just wanted to point out that a pokemon having no counters hasn't stopped it from staying in a tier in the past.

Just now, YettoDie said:

Misdreavus with 19 speed, as previous mention doesn't really get outsped, none of the other 19 speed win vs it 1v1, same goes for the 20 speed pokes. You'd have to rely on scarfers, to which it can just switch out.

I agree Misd has less checks in LC than Hydreigon does in OU, but both have 0 counters in their respective tiers. The amount of mons used in OU is bigger than in LC though.

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52 minutes ago, LifeStyleNORE said:

yes

Hydreigon in OU has no counters either, only checks

Hydreigon in OU has many sets and each set has several counters, but there are no pokemon that can counter all the Hydreigon sets.
Misdreavus Nasty Plot doesn't have any counters, only checks.

 

There is a big difference here.

 

Edited by gbwead
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  • 4 months later...

Can we get a mienfoo test ban? 

 

I think 70% usage over the last three months is kinda wild, it may be more than that but I just checked to April. I don't think its really broken its more a question of whether its unhealthy and the only way to really see that is if we have test ban. Hard to do theoretically when its pretty much on every team. 

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On 6/1/2020 at 5:58 PM, DaftCoolio said:

Can we get a mienfoo test ban? 

 

I think 70% usage over the last three months is kinda wild, it may be more than that but I just checked to April. I don't think its really broken its more a question of whether its unhealthy and the only way to really see that is if we have test ban. Hard to do theoretically when its pretty much on every team. 

A few months ago, we considered taking action against Mienfoo in LC. However, I believe the more popular solution was to test ban Regenerator and leave Mienfoo in LC with Inner Focus. What do you think of this option?

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

A few months ago, we considered taking action against Mienfoo in LC. However, I believe the more popular solution was to test ban Regenerator and leave Mienfoo in LC with Inner Focus. What do you think of this option?

I don't really think regenerator is the problem, see other tiers with other regen pokemon which are fine. I can't remember if any other pokemon in LC even get regen. Both paths really end at the same destination so its not too much of an issue, would be in favour of either.

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Isn't the purpose of these special bans (Evasion abilities but only really because of Garchomp, Wobbuffet, Draco Meteor Hydreigon) to make sure nothing goes from OU to Ubers and thus become unsable from PokeMMO gameplay perspective? LC Pokemon don't have that problem in that sense, you can use Mienfoo in NU or evolve to Mienshao and still use your Pokemon. So are these possible ability bans/nullifications as acceptable to nerf a LC Pokemon as it is to make sure nothing goes to actual Ubers? I think this is something the people should know from tiering discussion perspective.

 

Edit: I get that Arena Trap is banned because all of its users removed needed counters for the health of the metagame. But Regen Mienfoo seems only to try to keep Mienfoo from not getting banned because it is just too damn good.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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It would be curious how LC would be without Mienfoo having a 70% presence, we currently have very few pokes that can reliably answer Mienfoo. Hidden Abilities should make it a bit easier to answer the poke, sadly noone knows when it will hit. The fact that you gain so much momentum from U-turn + the health regen, that besides it's amazing supporting and offensive movepool.As it has been said many times before, it's pretty much too good not to use, the same went for Misdreavus which used to be a decent answer for Mienfoo.

 

I'd be for a test ban of Mienfoo. That is if we don't want to go down the rabbit hole of banning more specific abilties, as in my eyes regenerator is currently the problem of Mienfoo. Test ban Regenerator > Test ban Mienfoo.

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I'm in favour of a test ban on Regenerator.

As long as we don't have Hidden abilities, LC will still be a mess as some pokemons might seem overpowered such as Regenerator Mienfoo, while others like Regenerator Slowpoke, Foongus, Weak armor Vullaby etc don't get their chance to be used at their full potential. With HA's we probably wouldn't need to ban Arena trap on Diglet.

 

So yeah, outdated MMO needs outdated mechanics, otherwise it's not that balanced.

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1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

Just to clarify, is the proposal to ban Regenerator on Meinfoo alone or a flat ban of Regenerator in LC, period? (does anything else in LC even get regen?)

Nothing besides Mienfoo gets Regenerator, so it's not a complex ban.

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