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LC Discussion Request Thread

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The LC Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. 

 

Rules:

  • All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
  • All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
  • Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.

 

Things to consider:

  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the SM tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
  • Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

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Misdreavus is straight up busted. First of all, the bulk it gets is beyond ridiculous with Eviolite. This can be even further boosted by Calm Mind and things can be made even worse by adding Substitute when you're taking less damage on special side than it takes to make a Sub. Will-o-Wisp cripples opponents even further making breaking Misdreavus so hard because you don't know which side you should try, physical or special (and keep guessing if it's Calm Mind or Wisp). Furthermore, Misdreavus has actually a ridiculously good speed as well. It reaches 19 speed which is among the highest in the whole Little Cup, only losing to likes of Elekid and Voltorb, which aren't even super amazing anymore. It also has the movepool to have coverage over anything imaginable. It outspeeds (or ties) with every Pursuit trapper, the only Pursuit trapper that actually works kind of are slow ones like Munchlax but they're super afraid of Wisp. There's just so little to no counterplay to Misdreavus I think it needs to go.

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its time for the houndour shenanigans.

Now for real I dont play LC so I cant argue. But after eviolite, it seems a nice tier.

 

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12 minutes ago, pachima said:

its time for the houndour shenanigans.

Now for real I dont play LC so I cant argue. But after eviolite, it seems a nice tier.

196+ Atk Life Orb Houndour Pursuit vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-16 (40 - 64%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

 

This is the most damage Houndour can do but not to mention how stupid + Attack Houndour is, let's have a more realistic calc.

 

0 Atk Houndour Pursuit vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Life Orb Houndour Pursuit vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

 

196 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-23 (72 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. +1 196 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 16-18 (64 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Meanwhile:

 

76 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndour: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndour: 10-12 (52.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I wouldn't even switch out Misdreavus against Houndour because it's not even a bad 1v1 matchup for it. Scarf Pursuit is nowhere near a reliable 2HKO, Misdreavus can be faster. If you don't wanna run HP Fighting even Thunderbolt will do the job.

Edited by OrangeManiac

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2 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

196+ Atk Life Orb Houndour Pursuit vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-16 (40 - 64%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

 

This is the most damage Houndour can do but not to mention how stupid + Attack Houndour is, let's have a more realistic calc.

 

0 Atk Houndour Pursuit vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Life Orb Houndour Pursuit vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO

 

Meanwhile:

 

76 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndour: 12-16 (63.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

76 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndour: 10-12 (52.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I wouldn't even switch out Misdreavus against Houndour because it's not even a bad 1v1 matchup for it. Scarf Pursuit is nowhere near a reliable 2HKO, Misdreavus can be faster. If you don't wanna run HP Fighting even Thunderbolt will do the job.

but eviolite houndour ofc.

Edit: Bulky houndour with 1 turn rests seem fine actually. 

Edited by pachima

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52 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Misdreavus is straight up busted. First of all, the bulk it gets is beyond ridiculous with Eviolite. This can be even further boosted by Calm Mind and things can be made even worse by adding Substitute when you're taking less damage on special side than it takes to make a Sub. Will-o-Wisp cripples opponents even further making breaking Misdreavus so hard because you don't know which side you should try, physical or special (and keep guessing if it's Calm Mind or Wisp). Furthermore, Misdreavus has actually a ridiculously good speed as well. It reaches 19 speed which is among the highest in the whole Little Cup, only losing to likes of Elekid and Voltorb, which aren't even super amazing anymore. It also has the movepool to have coverage over anything imaginable. It outspeeds (or ties) with every Pursuit trapper, the only Pursuit trapper that actually works kind of are slow ones like Munchlax but they're super afraid of Wisp. There's just so little to no counterplay to Misdreavus I think it needs to go.

what about houndour skarf beat up ? I didnt found the moove on the calculator but I think it can kill missdreavus with 6 hit 

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Houndour is not a good mon in a tier with many good stealth rock setters (onix, tirtouga, ferroseed, dwebble, pawniard) and its immunity to fire is fairly irrelevant. Its usefulness as a psychic answer is not useful considering abra is not as good without magic guard. It also adds to a team's fighting weakness which is rarely good since we're lacking some fighting resists (regen foongus/slowpoke mainly).

 

Murkrow and misdreavus are probably the 2 most banworthy mons that exist in LC currently, so I'd say discussion should be mainly on those for now. Murkrow has insane versatility and great base stats (also hitting 19 speed), which makes predicting what moves it has very difficult. It also has stab sucker punch to ruin the days of any scarfers that try to revenge it.

 

Misdreavus seems slightly more manageable personally. Running knock off on timburr/mienfoo will cripple misdreavus bulk a lot (and knock off is a god move in LC anyways, even with low base power). It also has the trade off of running speed or bulk. Sure it can hit 19 speed, but it'll also be a lot frailer vs scarfers/things that can tank a hit. It also doesn't have nasty plot so its offensive presence is a lot less than what it would be with nasty plot.

 

Another food for thought. Shell smash users. I only watched the finals match of the recent lc tournament so I don't know how much shell smash users were used, but they are quite powerful and difficult to stop. Shellder, clamperl, tirtouga, dwebble are a few that come to mind. Shellder has reasonable physical bulk, which allows it to set up on certain physical attackers, and it has flexibility in its moveset to some extent with its last slot. Clamperl has insane power behind it, but is more difficult to set up/not get revenged by sucker punch etc. Surf+hp fire coverage gives you all the coverage you need at +2 sp atk. Diglett can be used as a support for any shell smasher. It can remove pawniard, a troublesome pokemon for smashers due to its typing and stab sucker punch. It can memento on a threat to allow a shell smasher to set up. It can pick off anything low hp that is slower than it.

 

Diglett will be one of those annoying mons in LC that will be extra annoying without team preview. You'll have to second guess pressing volt switch with magnemite or chinchou, fearing the diglett popping out from its dirt hole. I'm not sure if diglett will outright be banworthy, since it has low power and low bulk, meaning it has very little that it can outright ko, even if it gets in safely. It's definitely something to watch out for in the future, most likely for potentially unhealthy teambuilding constraints, but I guess we'll have to see how the LC meta evolves. 

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Definitely agree on Shell Smash users. Especially ones with Sturdy like Tirtouga and Dwebble are incredible. Saved by Sturdy, Berry Juice max heal, Sturdy again. You need to essentially KO them 3 times unless you have multi-hit moves.

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On 8/26/2018 at 7:03 PM, RLotus said:

Misdreavus seems managable with porygon as a good hard counter.

How does it beat Sub + Calm Mind Misdreavus?

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252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 9-11 (40.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

 

while

 

252 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Porygon: 9-11 (39.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

 

let's be honest here, choice specs porygon isn't the best ideia

Edited by Meh

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1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

How does it beat Sub + Calm Mind Misdreavus?

0 SpA Porygon Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 240 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
Porygon can break sub at +1 and eat 2 hp fight at +1, then you can play around with getting plays right with twave vs sub. But ye, I see your point.
Edited by RLotus

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1 hour ago, RLotus said:
0 SpA Porygon Shadow Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 6-8 (27.2 - 36.3%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
+1 240 SpA Misdreavus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 236 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-12 (38.4 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
Porygon can break sub at +1 and eat 2 hp fight at +1, then you can play around with getting plays right with twave vs sub. But ye, I see your point.

Well breaking Sub is actually pretty big, makes it actually a decent enough check in my books. Guess Shadow Ball isn't a bad coverage move for it.

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I dont think Misdrea need to be ban actually.
personally, in this new tiers, I will not ban anyone yet.
some stuffs are more powerful than others? certainly yes,
There was not enough fight actually to know what should be banned. It's my opinion.

 

But yeah I can agree that before testing this tiers, I knew that misdrea and murkro will be really fearsome. I mean, all people here can agree that.

Edited by MknsZblex

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This might be an unpopular opinion, but seriously, LC uber should be applied to Pokemmo.

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13 minutes ago, Meh said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but seriously, LC uber should be applied to Pokemmo.

Already has. Reason why Gligar and a handful of others like Sneasel and Meditite aren't in LC now. I guess the threshold could be a bit too high for something to be LC Ubers than some would prefer, that's entirely up to debate - but it is there.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac

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3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Already has. Reason why Gligar and a handful of others like Sneasel and Meditite aren't in LC now. I guess the threshold could be a bit too high for something to be LC Ubers than some would prefer, that's entirely up to debate - but it is there.

 

No I mean, don't we occasionally have Tournaments that Ubers are also allowed to be used? I want a new tier to be added so we can:

    -Both create balance over these broken "LC" pokemon

     -And a second allowed tier for LC-only tournaments

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2 hours ago, Meh said:

No I mean, don't we occasionally have Tournaments that Ubers are also allowed to be used? I want a new tier to be added so we can:

    -Both create balance over these broken "LC" pokemon

     -And a second allowed tier for LC-only tournaments

Well some of the Uber LCs are so disgustingly broken the battles would make no sense. Scyther, Gligar, Sneasel, Tangela - compare them to the rest of the LCs and you'll see what I mean. Seems like lots of pointless effort to something that we know isn't going to be super fun to begin with.

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1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Well some of the Uber LCs are so disgustingly broken the battles would make no sense. Scyther, Gligar, Sneasel, Tangela - compare them to the rest of the LCs and you'll see what I mean. Seems like lots of pointless effort to something that we know isn't going to be super fun to begin with.

But broken vs broken would be fair, wouldn't it?

But ehh... I get your point.

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1 hour ago, Meh said:

Are there any plans on adding a LC queue in Matchmaking, btw?

UU and NU are added but no one use it.. So for the moment it's not really a good idea.. 

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36 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

UU and NU are added but no one use it.. So for the moment it's not really a good idea.. 

I mean, LC is way more interesting than those other tiers, I bet the community would queue for LC more often than these 2 (my opinion=/=fact)

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