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[OU discussion] banned items and levels


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"Bright Power, Lax Incense, Focus w/e, kings rock, quick claw"
 
talked to a few people. these items are not ban worthy. in nearly every if not every circumstance they are inferior choices to the likes of the choice items, life orb, berrys, ect. using them has a cost of a better item in exchange for a small chance of rng.
they got banned back in 2013 because some staff added them to the ban list and everyone was all "these items are annoying why would we fight it?" and we didnt have nearly as many good item choices as we do now so they were more viable. now their banned weak meme items that are spamming up the ban list for no good reason.
 
as for the level ban
it prevents the best memes

 

 

the best argument i have seen is surprisingly from @LifeStyle which was paraphrasing "i would hate to not get in a tourney because some noob got in with his level 37 blastoise". according to a member of the TC it was not banned by them but by staff and it is preventing quality meme gimmicks. most tourneys dont fill up these days and i dont see the logic in preventing a possible problem by banning legitimate strategy's. isnt the 6 pokes thing enough?
 
also as to the argument "isnt this aron thing op?" no it isnt. every ghost type and mold break pokemon destroy it. anything immune to sandstorm kills it. anything with sub beats it as do multi hit attacks. and it requires sand set up which only last 5 turns giving you a narrow window, so it can be stalled out.
 
@Munya you can expect this thread right now i dont jouk around
Edited by fredrichnietze
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We've discussed this in the past internally within the Tier Council and it almost always boiled down to "We could, but it makes everything less enjoyable". Yeah they're generally inferior to other items and totally RNG based, with no control to the player.  Bright powder/quick claw/focus band just add an element to the game that really isn't necessary. Thankfully we don't have baton pass, so there are no shenanigans like quick claw spore smeargle or bright powder sub ninjask. 

 

As for the level ban, I would like to see level 1 pokemon allowed, as they can be surprisingly viable like a suicide pineco lead, etc. There are also more options now due to focus sash being implemented some time in the future and custap berry for sturdy mons. Obviously having some random storyline players entering tournaments isn't ideal, but that's a pretty small issue, since it would require someone to not have beaten the E4 (after E4, your pokemon are probably close to 50 at least), to be aware that tournaments exist and think they have an actual chance to win, and actually sign up quickly enough to get a spot.  

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Besides, devs can just use this for an excuse: "Kek, people say they need to grind to get comps. Just get a level 1 aron/pineco, w/ewith this specific moveset, you dont even need good ivs, and you get yourself a comp"

Jokes aside, those level 1 comps are part of meta(somewhat) so competitively, there is almost no reason to not be able to use them.

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smogon =/= pokemmo

and the list of non uber pokemon being uber at a specific lower level has got to be very small. small enough to not be a factor as you could just ban level 1-49 amoonguss *IF* it was ban worthy in pokemmo. also i cant seem to find this on smogon got a link?

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First of all kings rock never ever because of how skill link + kings rock works. 

 

And these are all just banned because with enough luck they're stupidly broken. With focus band you can get lucky and just never die from damaging moves ever. With bright powder, same thing, just could be never hit by anything ever (evasion is just all around not okay, but this is evasion that you can't even remove with whirlwind or haze, and knock off can miss) 

 

These are obviously extreme circumstances, but still it's completely out of your own control if you opponent runs bright powder on everything and you can't hit with any move that isn't faint attack, swift, or shock wave, and we know how much damage those bad boys do, so it's a little ridiculous. It's one thing to miss because you chose fire blast over flame thrower, because you gave yourself the bad odds, but things like focus band and bright powder force the odds onto you, which can be really stupid if luck doesn't swing your way. 

 

And yeah I pretty much agree with both Doc and lifestyles points on the level thing. Not worth it just to get those few weird sturdy strats. 

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Just now, Rigamorty said:

First of all kings rock never ever because of how skill link + kings rock works. 

64% flinch is rather crazy. you make a good point. serene grace iron head has 60% thou so i got to ask why is the extra 4% the difference between a ban and not a ban? give my a use case.

 

as to the "it's possible but uber unlikly" argument i counter with crits. you can fight a choice scarf rockslide aero and just get everything crit and flinched to death and never get a single move off. the odds are similarly unlikely for bright powder or focus band sweeps so why is this special? odds are the item does nothing. and this is pokemon, rng is everywhere. we dont ban things for being anoying or having some small amount of rng that could effect the game. we ban them for being uber or uncompetitive. and this just doesnt fit the definition of uncompetitive unless you broaden it so much it also includes crits and all other forms of rng.

 

for the spamming up tourneys argument.

"you must have beaten e4 + have 6 pokemon in your party" should be enough to keep most of the non competitive storylines from taking spots away from people who have a chance at winning. a random noob with 6x50+ pokes they bought off gtl for 50k with random ev's, iv's, moves, and nature can play comp now. their is no perfect solution to segmenting the player base, and too much segmentation will effect legit strats and players.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

64% flinch is rather crazy. you make a good point. serene grace iron head has 60% thou so i got to ask why is the extra 4% the difference between a ban and not a ban? give my a use case.

 

Wot even gets serene grace iron head

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Because you can actually still deal with that, no matter how much bad luck you get. Inner focus makes flinching not a thing, rock slide has a finite amount of pp, priority moves exist, you can resist rock slide and wall it. Not to mention that had downsides such as choice scarf locking you into a move, there's a chance for rock slide to miss meaning the luck needs to be that extra step more absurd, meanwhile the only downside to bright powder is that you aren't holding something else that doesn't rely on luck. 

 

Also we don't have jirachi so the whole serene grace iron head thing isn't really a thing we've gone over because currently the Pokémon we have with serene grace are dunsparce, blissey, and a certain bird I'm half surprised hasn't already cause complaints 

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Keep the level ban but let level 1 pokemon be used. besides the trollish aaron and rattata 'strategies' there are some legit sets like level 1 trick room smeargle @sash.

 

One small point that I think hasnt been mentioned: there are no wild level 1 pokemon. so there is not the chance for someone to enter matchmaking with some low level wild pokemon, if they want to use a level 1 strat they have to actually breed for it. which is at least something

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3 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Wot even gets serene grace iron head

jirachi. the ability page has a list of all moves effected and what pokemon get those moves. headbutt is also 30% flinch 60% with sg and more common.

 

and your avoiding the question. why is thing a worse then thing b? is your argument availability? because im pretty sure only cloyster gets skill link for now and thats a rather difficult to pull off thing. shell smash with no white herb and still be outsped by things, or trick room and still be outsped by things. and then hope for flinch vs all the counters.

 

both "this is op under very certain circumstances" arguments have equal sized holes in them because they arent broken.

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Thanks for the thread @fredrichnietze, but I wished we had two seperate threads: one for hax items and another for low levels. The reasons - whether they are legitimate or not - for the hax items ban are fundamentaly different than the reasons for the low levels ban. Imo, the main argument against hax items is that they could be considered uncompetitive where as the reason for the low levels ban is that low level pokemons could be broken.

 

For most pokemons, hax items are not worth running and are even quite bad. However, every single pokemon can access these items and some startegies with these items can be quite good and very low skilled. King's Rock + Still Link is a big red flag for me. I also don't believe it matters if a pokemon becomes broken if it holds an hax item or not. For instance, most Blissey in Doubles don't run Protect and would therefore benefit way more from holding a Bright Powder than a Leftovers. I don't believe Bright Powder Blissey would be overpowered, but it would be viable for sure. This would imply that we are adding a layer of RNG to competitive MMO battling that could be avoided. Even though some may argue we are playing pokemon and therefore RNG is part of the game, but imo that is not a valid reason to include these items in Pokemon battling if they are undesirable and could be removed. Freeze from Ice Beam can be disgusting, but if we ban Ice Beam what remaining Ice move are we supposed to use? Some aspects of pokemon battling regardless of how much RNG they bring to duels can simply not be removed without some serious consequences. Hax items can be removed with no problem tho and that's why it's imo up to the players to decide in what competitive environment they want to compete. I personally would prefer playing without hax items involved so that the outcome of a duel is decided more by skills than RNG.

 

1 hour ago, DoctorPBC said:

The problem with removing the level ban is underspeeding for trick room

Common strat with old school vgc was running a lvl 49 amoonguss for the underspeed sacrificing an extremely minor amount of stats elsewhere. It was beyond pooped, it got banned

 

tl;dr keep the level ban

That's not a problem; it's just an arguably good or viable strategy. It would become a problem if we could prove it was broken, but we are no where near proving that low levels are op in doubles and even less in singles. 

 

59 minutes ago, FNTCZ said:

Keep the level ban but let level 1 pokemon be used. besides the trollish aaron and rattata 'strategies' there are some legit sets like level 1 trick room smeargle @sash.

DoctorPBJ pointed out in the post I quoted above why lvl 49 Amoonguss could be considered better than lvl 50 amoonguss. The same could be said about several other pokemons. I don't think it's fair to say that only lvl 1 and lvl 50 pokemons should be allowed.

 

edit: Just talked to @Senile and, according to him, King's Rock is more like a 99% flinch chance with Still Link.

 

Edited by gbwead
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25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Hax items can be removed with no problem tho and that's why it's imo up to the players to decide in what competitive environment they want to compete. I personally would prefer playing without hax items involved so that the outcome of a duel is decided more by skills than RNG.

if we are banning based on personal preference can we have a talk about blissey/chansey? or how about unbanning based on personal preference because for the rules i want my mewtwo sweeps.

 

ya pickng up what im putting down?

 

that being said the argument for limiting rng appeals to my salty self.

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1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

if we are banning based on personal preference can we have a talk about blissey/chansey? or how about unbanning based on personal preference because for the rules i want my mewtwo sweeps.

 

ya pickng up what im putting down?

 

that being said the argument for limiting rng appeals to my salty self.

I get that, but the main difference is that Blissey/Chansey were never considered broken unlike Mewtwo I guess. When it comes to uncompetitiveness based on RNG, it can be quite subjective what level of RNG is deemed acceptable. I don't believe there is a right or wrong decision regarding hax items if we can't prove they are broken. We only have to judge if some hax items strategies are viable and if we want to deal with that crap or not. 

Edited by gbwead
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3 hours ago, gbwead said:

edit: Just talked to @Senile and, according to him, King's Rock is more like a 99% flinch chance with Still Link.

 

You're the worst.

 

So, before anything else, I'd like to point out King's Rock gives a 10% flinch chance, not 20%. So, with Skill Link, multi-hit attacks have ~41% chance to flinch, not these straight absurd numbers people have been putting out here.

 

That applies to pretty much every hax item; Incense + Brightpowder are 10%, Focus Band is 10%. The only one that isn't is Quick Claw, at an incredible 20% (wowee OPOP xD).

 

So, before continuing on, I'll acknowledge what has been said before; The only reason these items are still banned is because of a combination of several very specific reasons.

  1. They have been banned since waaaaay back when they were introduced, because some random staff member stuck it on the clause list back in 20whofuckingcares.
  2. They're annoying, and them being unbanned doesn't really add anything of competitive substance to the game, so nobody has cared enough to pursue their unbanning in any meaningful capacity.
  3. Even in formats where hax items are legal, they're basically never used. As a result, most people have either never actually seen them used, OR gotten haxed by them at 1077 ELO on the Showdown Ladder one time and hate them. (Ignoring all the times they probably ran into someone using them, but didn't know, because they didn't proc); As a result, most people don't actually know that much about them or how bad/good they are, just that they're an RNG mess.

With that being said, what I 100% disagree with and will dispute, is the idea that these items are in any way banworthy. In fact, I'd argue that if the question wasn't "Should they be unbanned?", but rather, "Should they be banned?", it would be taken about as seriously as suggesting Sand Attack  or Dynamicpunch should be banned, because these items are actually fucking awful.

 

So, with that in mind, I'll go down the hax items in order of (what I believe) are the worst, to the ones that might actually have some use. None of them are even remotely banworthy as far as I'm concerned, but there are some that are just obviously inferior.

 

Additionally, I'm going to state something that should be obvious, but is basically always ignored in this discussion for some reason; Losing your item slot for one of these items is insanely bad. Sure, lowering enemy attack's accuracy by 10%? That sounds sweet. But then you remember how incredibly important and useful items are in Pokemon, and you realize that giving up an item slot for an item that, the majority of the time, in a majority of games, is effectively worse than nothing (because at least doing nothing doesn't lose a slot over a better item), and the items start to look a lot worse.

 

1: Focus Band

Effect: If a pokemon holding a Focus Band is hit by a damaging move that would cause it to faint, there is a 10% chance Focus Band will activate, causing it's holder to survive with 1 HP.

 

So, first of all, Focus Band. Before even going into anything, I'm going to outright state that in 99% of scenarios, Focus Band is significantly worse than Brightpowder. Brightpowder lowers the accuracy of all moves attempting to hit you by 10%, whereas Focus Band will only ever activate on moves that are KOing you at the same % chance, leaves you at 1 HP, still leaves you vulnerable to literally everything other than direct damage that would KO you, still leaves you vulnerable to any chip at 1 HP, etc.

 

So, aside from being generally worse than Brightpowder, Focus Band is just awful. Full stop. A 10% chance is pretty awful. A 10% chance to save you when you would die is really bad, because it effectively means that for it to be useful, you have to knowingly send your pokemon to it's death, praying that a 10% chance will proc and give you an extra turn. And for all that trouble, you're still left at 1 HP, vulnerable to sandstorm, hazards, status, sneezing, a breeze in the wrong direction, etc.; A majority of the time, a Focus Band does effectively nothing, and even when it DOES do something, your pokemon is far from "unkillable"; Even in the worst case scenario where your opponent's Focus Band activates and they KO your pokemon, it should still be trivial to revenge kill. And while you might think that a 10% chance to survive is better than nothing, in the same way you might desperately fish for an Ice Beam freeze when you're about to lose, the difference between this and Ice Beam is that Ice Beam is good independent of a 10% freeze chance; Focus Band actively makes your pokemon worse by holding it.

 

2: Quick Claw

Effect: A pokemon holding Quick Claw has a 20% chance of going first in its priority bracket.

 

This might be surprising to see second, because unlike the other hax items, Quick Claw actually has a decent activation chance; 20% is a lot better than 10%, and that can't be ignored.

 

With that being said, Quick Claw suffers from the same problem as Focus Band, in that it CAN get you some free hits or even a KO by activating when your opponent doesn't expect it, this does mean that a lot of the time, you're putting yourself in a terrible position and banking on a 20% chance to turn it favorable for you. What ends up happening instead is that, a majority of the time, you'll lose the gamble and be down a pokemon.

 

Ultimately, Quick Claw's effect of going first is something you want to happen reliably in order to properly abuse it (ie, slap it on a really slow, strong sweeper), but it's low % chance of activating means that trying to rely on it frequently results in it failing and your pokemon being KO'd, or it activating on turns where going first doesn't influence the game at all. Not only that, but going first doesn't necessarily help you against defensive answers a lot of the time, and Quick Claw doesn't ignore priority, so that remains a viable option to deal with any potential Quick Claw threats.

 

It's an inconsistent effect that wants consistency in order to be abused, and because of that, it's just garbage that eats up an item slot that MIGHT win a game every now and then, but loses much more games because of the item you lost to use it.

 

3: Brightpowder/Lax Incense

Effect: A pokemon holding DumbItemName reduces the accuracy of moves targetting them by 10%.

 

So, to begin with, let me clarify the effect; It doesn't subtract 10% of the attacking move's accuracy, but rather it decreases the incoming move's accuracy by 10%. So Flamethrower would have 90% accuracy, whereas Zap Cannon would have 45%.

 

Bright Powder is up here because it's effect is actually decent; Unlike the other 2 items, you don't have to put yourself in shitty positions for it's effect to matter. A passive 10% accuracy decrease, while incredibly low, is still usable because it's always active, making it significantly more likely to impact the game than other hax items that are narrowly useful, and encourage putting yourself in bad situations for the roll to matter.

 

Unfortunately, that's only the case if Bright Powder has no opportunity cost. However, because there is an opportunity cost, (loss of an item), Bright Powder just isn't worth using unless there's literally no other item that would be better for you to run (aka I doubt it, kiddo).

 

Of course, this is subjective, but I'll illustrate my point with my favorite thing to follow: Precedent.

 

The best comparison between the 10% Evasion items is the Sand Veil bans in gens 4/5, an ability that increases Evasion by 20% while in Sandstorm. Unlike the evasion items, Sand Veil had basically no opportunity cost for it's main abusers; In gen 4, all Gliscor had to give up was Hyper Cutter, effectively only useful for Intimidate, in exchange for an effectively always on 20% evasion boost. Similarly, in gen 5, all Garchomp had to give up was Rough Skin for a passive 20% evasion boost, letting it abuse some ridiculously stupid sets, like Sub-SD, fishing for a miss and then boosting up. The ability had effectively no opportunity cost to use, since Sandstorm being up in Gen 4 is incredibly common between TTar and Hippo and no real competing weathers (lolAbomasnow). Gen 5 had weather wars, but again, Tyranitar alone dwarfed the other starters in usage, not even accounting for Hippo.

 

So, naturally, this brings up the discussion of how much better Sand Veil is than Brightpowder. Sure, it's a difference of 20% and 10%, and a useful item slot vs a significantly less impactful ability, but how much does that influence the actual utility of them as evasion-boosting nonsense? Well, the most obvious comparison would be comparing the previously mentioned Sub-SD Chomp set vs a hypothetical Sub-Setup Brightpowder user.

 

First of all, I'm going to assume 5 Subs for the Garchomp, assuming Leftovers and enough HP to be able to setup Sub 5 times, but I'll throw in 4 sub chances too, in case you're scared of massive Spike setups or something. The Brightpowder mon will get 3 Subs, because their lack of lefties means it's incredibly likely they'll be chipped somehow (Weather/Hazards). With that in mind, here's the chance for each prospective set to get a Substitute up while the opponent misses:

 

5 Sub Chomp: 67.2% Chance

4 Sub Chomp: 59.0% Chance

3 Sub Bright: 27.1% Chance

4 Sub Bright: 34.4% Chance

 

In case it isn't obvious, this is a massive difference. Yeah yeah sure you could run Brightpowder on anything, instead of Sand Veil being on just a top-tier OU pokemon, but the difference between Sand Veil and Brightpowder in these instances is that one has a significantly larger opportunity cost. Ultimately, this is one of the better hax items, in that it could potentially see some use, unlike the other two just being meme-tier, but I hardly think it's any more problematic than currently legal RNG-exploiting moves/abilities/strats/fucking whatever dude.

 

4: King's Rock
Effect: A pokemon holding King's Rock has a 10% chance to flinch on any attacking move that does not already have a Flinch chance.

 

This is only up here because Skill Link King's Rock is actually kind of a real thing. Any other application of King's Rock is pretty much Focus Band tier to me, so it's not even worth mentioning; If you understood what I was getting at with Focus Band/Quick Claw being bad, you'll probably get why 10% Flinch is similarly not excellent.

 

So, with that being said, let's talk about ~41% flinch chance, and why I don't think it's anywhere near as scary as it might seem. (Although it is a little scary)

 

The most important thing to understand is that King's Rock Cloyster is run in lieu of another, more consistently relevant item; White Herb to minimize damage taken and make you less susceptible to priority attacks, Life Orb to hit harder and nab some more KOs, but making yourself more susceptible to getting whacked by priority, Focus Sash for a really reliable setup along with good hazard control as a reliable, scary lategame sweeper, etc.

 

Every potential item has a use, and which item you choose depends on how exactly you want Cloyster to slot in on your team. In the case of King's Rock, although it does have a scary flinch chance, I think it similarly has a specific niche. It's an item that gives you a chance against defensive, bulky answers that hope to KO you after tanking a hit, that LO isn't enough to push through. It isn't necessarily objectively better than other item options, and even with a decently high 41% chance, is still unreliable against anything that can take a hit and then threaten to OHKO you, but can get the job done.

 

Does getting flinched by it suck? Sure, maybe. But it's not exactly a gimme; It's 1 item on 1 pokemon that, although useful, is in the place of other, more reliable items. Ultimately, the best answer to Cloyster (and really, every shell smasher) is and always has been to not let it set up, not deal with it afterwards. Ultimately, King's Rock lets it snatch victory from the jaws of defeat some of the time after it's setup, but it doesn't help it get there, and it doesn't always work. It's certainly not quite as obnoxious as other RNG bullshit, like pretty much any Serene Grace user.

 

Anyway, that about covers everything. Hax items are too inconsistent to be significantly abused, and come at too great a cost to just slap onto things and hope it wins you a game. Using them loses you a lot more games than it wins you, and while getting R1 Haxed by Quick Claw feels shitty, people aren't going to win tournaments off of the back of these things, and if someone somehow does, I don't think that's any more likely than someone winning a tourney off the back of crazy crits and bad misses from the opponent.

 

Ultimately, my biggest gripe on the matter is that hax items aren't even that bad. Compared to other RNG strategies like anything involving Serene Grace, they have a higher cost to abuse, are less likely to influence the game, and a lot of the time, aren't even as high-impact. The reason hax items are banned isn't because they're strong or overwhelming, it's because losing because of one, even if it's incredibly unlikely, feels awful. Because 99% of the time, anyone using these items is probably bad, to the point where they don't understand why these items are bad, or what's bad about them, so people would prefer not dealing with them. But I don't think that's exclusive to these items, and they're certainly nowhere near the top of the viability hierarchy on such strategies.

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I didn't read all of Seniles post yet, I'll get to it next year maybe. But 1 thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is Kings Rock + Fling which is a 100% viable strat, especially on Weavile in doubles as paired with Fake out gives you 2 turns of flinching your opponent. You can also pair it with thief to steal an item back but it's rare you get that chance with the frail weasel thing.

 

I'm against allowing 1-49 mons, I think the argument brought forward for them are already enough to solidify this point, but hax items I see no problem with. Skill Link Kings rock is the biggest factor for keeping them banned, and possibly the only viable one at that.

 

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-191788469 - turn 23, perhaps the only time I've seen Quick claw in action

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If the reason why low level comps can't be used is because we would get unprepared random players stealing the tournament spot of players that are prepared to compete, maybe buying some kind of ribbon with battle points would be a good way to legitimize these low level comps. A lvl 1 aron costs absolutely nothing, so paying 10k bp wouldn't be the end of the world for the right of using that mon in tournaments and it would also prevent random new players to enter tournaments with low level wild mons. 

 

I hope low level mons will at least remain allowed for unautomated tournaments because I don't believe they are broken, uncomp or unhealthy at all.

 

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15 hours ago, DaftCoolio said:

Wot even gets serene grace iron head

togekiss gets airslash, so

 

7 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

I didn't read all of Seniles post yet, I'll get to it next year maybe. But 1 thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is Kings Rock + Fling which is a 100% viable strat, especially on Weavile in doubles as paired with Fake out gives you 2 turns of flinching your opponent. You can also pair it with thief to steal an item back but it's rare you get that chance with the frail weasel thing.

 

I'm against allowing 1-49 mons, I think the argument brought forward for them are already enough to solidify this point, but hax items I see no problem with. Skill Link Kings rock is the biggest factor for keeping them banned, and possibly the only viable one at that.

 

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-191788469 - turn 23, perhaps the only time I've seen Quick claw in action

I'd say that isn't too scary though, 2 flinches one after another that can only happen once during the game. We already have fake out, I don't think abusing fling's effect to get a double flinch gives you any advantage whatsoever, when you could be running a better weavile set instead. The damage of fling is shitty anyways, so the only way you'd actually make it work is if you needed 2 turns of enemy not doing jack shit 'cause of side-effect like poison or burn or whatever other thing you got in plan.

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6 hours ago, gbwead said:

If the reason why low level comps can't be used is because we would get unprepared random players stealing the tournament spot of players that are prepared to compete, maybe buying some kind of ribbon with battle points would be a good way to legitimize these low level comps. A lvl 1 aron costs absolutely nothing, so paying 10k bp wouldn't be the end of the world for the right of using that mon in tournaments and it would also prevent random new players to enter tournaments with low level wild mons. 

 

I hope low level mons will at least remain allowed for unautomated tournaments because I don't believe they are broken, uncomp or unhealthy at all.

 

10K BP for EACH mon to use in tournaments?

LMAO don't give them ideas, something like a 100 BP ribbon would be enough to prevent "noobs" entering tournaments.

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5 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

togekiss gets airslash, so

 

I'd say that isn't too scary though, 2 flinches one after another that can only happen once during the game. We already have fake out, I don't think abusing fling's effect to get a double flinch gives you any advantage whatsoever, when you could be running a better weavile set instead. The damage of fling is shitty anyways, so the only way you'd actually make it work is if you needed 2 turns of enemy not doing jack shit 'cause of side-effect like poison or burn or whatever other thing you got in plan.

I did say in Doubles, which is where 2 free turns of flinching your opponent can give you full control. In singles I agree, it's terribad

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