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OU Viability Thread


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1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

I think Togekiss should move some ranks up, since it have gained some popularity and proved to be threatening enough to make you have

something ready to at least check it, even not being at top usage. B- is way too low for it.

Although I do agree Togekiss should be put higher (B+ minimum), it's also helpful to give some kind of a metagame analysis regarding the Pokemon more than stating its usage. Usage itself is not a lone argument for viability; sometimes a Pokemon could be used because of some specific niche that no other Pokemon has but the Pokemon itself doesn't have a stranglehold over the metagame. For example of this could be Pokemon like Mantine and Tentacruel.

 

But yeah, Togekiss is a massive lategame threat due to one of the most broken combinations in Pokemon - 30% flinch move and Serene Grace. The presence of Blissey and mediocre speed prevent it to be something you can build your teams around reliably but it can definitely be amazing wild card Pokemon that offers you a win condition lots and lots of times because of the flinch spam. However, faster Pokemon than Togekiss do have a very tough time OHKOing this Pokemon so that's a merit for Togekiss too. Its movepool isn't the greatest but Air Slash, Flamethrower and Aura Sphere is scary enough to keep lots of Pokemon from switching in blindly.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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I believe mienshao deserves a bit higher ranking. 105 base speed is awesome (4th fastest pokemon in the tier, and jolteon isnt that used)

Also, 125 base attack coupled with life orb high jump kick is just destructive. (Not even Full defense hippowdon dares to switch into it if hazards are on field) Stone edge helps nailing Gengar, which is probably the best offensive switch in for this thing, and to finish it all, hp ice deals with the things HJK can´t (Gyara, salamence, gliscor, etc etc )

Regenerator makes up for the life orb recoil, however, its stellar point is the fact mienshao can u-turn, gain momentum for the team, and even cure itself (It isn´t hard at all to pressure a switch with such a powerhouse) 

 

It also resists stealth rock and with regenerator chances are you will mostly see mienshao above 80% health (Or dead). (Even the strongest priority moves need a boosting item to take it down at such health, of those, scizor is the one that deals most damage, however it still needs life orb/choice band. Dragonite must have choice band if it wants to kill, and everything else fails to kill Mienshao at such health with priority). Also, Mienshao has its own type of priority, albeit kinda weak, in the form of Fake out.

Lastly, the issue Mienshao´s counters dread of (Ghost types, mostly gengar) is that u-turn Mienshao can easily bring a pursuiter to take them down.

Certainly it has flaws, but B rank seems kinda low. Just my opinion.

Oh, btw, Protect also works against it, but with Regenerator + u-turn, Mienshao has no issue regaining back the lost hp.

 

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15 hours ago, pachima said:

I believe mienshao deserves a bit higher ranking. 105 base speed is awesome (4th fastest pokemon in the tier, and jolteon isnt that used)

Also, 125 base attack coupled with life orb high jump kick is just destructive. (Not even Full defense hippowdon dares to switch into it if hazards are on field) Stone edge helps nailing Gengar, which is probably the best offensive switch in for this thing, and to finish it all, hp ice deals with the things HJK can´t (Gyara, salamence, gliscor, etc etc )

Regenerator makes up for the life orb recoil, however, its stellar point is the fact mienshao can u-turn, gain momentum for the team, and even cure itself (It isn´t hard at all to pressure a switch with such a powerhouse) 

 

It also resists stealth rock and with regenerator chances are you will mostly see mienshao above 80% health (Or dead). (Even the strongest priority moves need a boosting item to take it down at such health, of those, scizor is the one that deals most damage, however it still needs life orb/choice band. Dragonite must have choice band if it wants to kill, and everything else fails to kill Mienshao at such health with priority). Also, Mienshao has its own type of priority, albeit kinda weak, in the form of Fake out.

Lastly, the issue Mienshao´s counters dread of (Ghost types, mostly gengar) is that u-turn Mienshao can easily bring a pursuiter to take them down.

Certainly it has flaws, but B rank seems kinda low. Just my opinion.

Oh, btw, Protect also works against it, but with Regenerator + u-turn, Mienshao has no issue regaining back the lost hp.

 

I definitely agree Mienshao is super strong and there are such limited amount of Pokemon that are foulproof counters (however 4 moveslot syndrome is a thing). Because of its strength and capability of sweeping teams out of nowhere, I'm inclined to call it A mon although the significance of having good defensive switch ins to support Mienshao's pivot strategies hinder it a little bit. Would you consider A- ranking ... *wait for it*..

 

Fair?

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Just now, OrangeManiac said:

I definitely agree Mienshao is super strong and there are such limited amount of Pokemon that are foulproof counters (however 4 moveslot syndrome is a thing). Because of its strength and capability of sweeping teams out of nowhere, I'm inclined to call it A mon although the significance of having good defensive switch ins to support Mienshao's pivot strategies hinder it a little bit. Would you consider A- ranking ... *wait for it*..

 

Fair?

More fair than B. Still I understand 4mss is a slight problem and its not by any means super meta defining mon, but I just felt B was too little :)

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16 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Ah, sorry for the lack of analyzis, I just didn't felt like it was needed, since not only everyone already know about it, but was also being discussed on the

"OU Discussion Thread" a few days ago. I won't forget it next time. 

 

I mean, to be perfectly honest with you, I find arguments calling Togekiss like it's the most broken thing on the game (in the tier discussion thread) ridiculous and not focused on the big picture rather than maybe on a few selected unlucky games. But that's just my personal perception of the metagame with the teams I use, everyone sees metagame a bit differently based on their playstyle.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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  • 4 weeks later...

Time to suggest some changes:

Togekiss for S

Single handedly killed full stall with Heal Bell + Nasty Plot. Can support with Thunder Wave and generally pull wins out of its ass through it, scarf is a solid option for this too. Its offensive checks fear its coverage moves in Aura Sphere and Flamethrower. Without stuff like Zapdos/Rotom-W this Pokemon is just amazing and definitely deserves the S tier.

 

Kingdra for A+

The only things that can safely switch into Critdra are Ferro/Blissey/Chansey and after some chipping around it can even take on some of these threats fairly easily. Of course it's also an insane rain abuser.

 

Chansey for A

Eviolite


Mienshao for A

Amazing speed tier, great coverage, huge damage, can be tailored to beat whatever you need to beat, incredible momentum gainer, deserves much better than B.

 

Kabutops for A

Rain is good, this mon is good, it can be tailored to beat either Ferrothorn with Superpower or to hit hard with Aqua Jet regardless of the current weather, also helping it deal with priority abusers.

 

Mamoswine for B

Despite me hyping the absolute hell out of it at first it simply doesn't live up to the hype. Stuff like Mantine and Flame Orb Milotic keep it from exerting as much pressure as it wishes it could exert, Scizor being the most popular mon around and Conkeldurr being overall the best mon is also bad for it. It's not a bad mon, just an unfortunate one who has to live with most of its common checks and counters being incredibly popular.

 

Cofagrigus for B

With Conk being the absolute best Pokemon in the tier Cofagrigus is a decent mon to have around, it can Haze, Knock Off, set up Toxic Spikes, Hex, Shadow Ball, Pain Split it's an all around solid bulky pivot and a good mon to have to deal with Conkeldurr and Mienshao.

 

Azumarill for B-

I haven't seen this mon do a single thing ever, Milotic keeps it in check no matter the set and it rarely has a chance to set up, at leas in my experience. It has some worth as a Volcarona check though.

 

Smeargle for B-

Sash made it a pretty decent lead, its worst matchup is Mienshao, definitely miles better than the garbage in the C ranks.

 

Arcanine for C

Want a bulky Intimidator? Use bulky Salamence. Want to deal lots of damage with good coverage and also have good priority in the back? Use a Dragonite. Want Flash Fire? Use Chandelure. Want to spam Flare Blitz with a decent speed tier? Use Darmanitan, right now Sheer Force may be disabled but once fixed again Darmanitan will just proceed to outclass Arcanine again.

 

Weezing for C-/D

Don't use Weezing, it does nothing.

 

Dugtrio/Wobbuffet for UR

Banned.

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1 hour ago, suigin said:

Time to suggest some changes:

Togekiss for S

Agreed. I'd say S- though.

 

Kingdra for A+

B+/B IMO. The crit set is quite slow at setting up; Focus energy by itself wont sweep anything, you need either a lot of team support (in the form of hazzards/twave) or to spend an extra turn to set up agility or sub. In the rain this mon is a monster indeed but it's still stopped cold by some pretty common mons like the blobs, ferro and some less common ones too like spdef milotic or jellicent. there is no surprice factor either as to which set kingdra would be running because if it's a rain team well, it's obviously a rain kingdra, if it's a random kingdra in a team with rain nowhere in sight chances are it'll be Scope Lens.. 

 

Chansey for A

Agreed. Even A+ imo

 

Mienshao for A

Agreed. Solid A. 

 

Kabutops for A

The only problem I see here is a definition one. As I understand it, A tier pokemon should be good on a wide variety of team archetypes, and while Kabutops is definitelly THE rain abuser (moreso than kingdra in our metagame) but it has no real use on other team structures. B+?

 

Mamoswine for B

I agree mamo suffers a lot from our metagame's most popular mons.. But I still feel like it's one of the best breakers we got, s stab combination is amazing, capable of 2hkoing the entire metagame as long as you predict correctly. It can also run a sash lead to guarantee rocks, even run endeavor to disrupt and I feel like Ice Priority is too rare and valuable. B+/A- IMO.

 

Cofagrigus for B

Agreed. Amazing movepool (Nobody's ever mentioned Snatch even tho it's great). Much like the opposite of mamoswine who hates the popular kids of the meta, cofag loves them. Conkel, mien, scizor.. you get it.

 

Azumarill for B-

Agreed on the ranking even tho I actually think azu is amazing just.. very niche. It needs the right team and set.

 

Smeargle for B-

Agreed.

 

Arcanine for C

Agreed.

 

Weezing for C-/D

Agreed. lol.

 

Dugtrio/Wobbuffet for UR
lol when was this thing last updated.

 

Quote

Conk for S+ btw.
Also reuni to S- bc it can no longer counter conkel 100%

 

 

Edited by FNTCZ
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@suigin I can't Agree with Togekiss. It's not that reliable Pokemon. Sure, if it has the right set against you it can cause you some big trouble. If you're playing fast offense, a Scarfer could potentially ruin your day. If you play bulky offense (or stall, kek), Nasty Plot, Roost, Air Slash could be just enough. However, more often than not Togekiss does need flinches to actually take threats down. Getting one is highly likely, getting two not really. Getting more in a row is almost a shot in the dark. I like Togekiss because it's amazing Pokemon that can offer you a win condition at any stage of game but S just seems way too high for a Pokemon that I find that unreliable. I would be fine calling it A mon at most, probably A exactly.
 

Mamoswine is a little bit too low at B imo. It's one of the only Pokemon that can two shot every Pokemon in the tier with Life Orb set. That is insanely good trait. Sure, it's defensively pretty garbage and it's hard to play but the two-shotting everything trait alone gives it sweeping potential no other Pokemon has. That's why it deserves A- minimum to me. (Also can't underestimate the significance of Ice Shard in OU.)

 

Other ones I can highly agree with.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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Update: I moved Mienshao and Togekiss to A and A- respectively. Further discussion to these are more than welcome but them being in lower B ranks was very wrong considering how powerful they are, so this was the least I could do for now.

 

Other discussion topics will be added in rankings when we have more input of them.

 

Also ranked Chansey A+ and Blissey A-.

 

Nevermind, forums being asshole again and doesn't allow me to edit OP.

 

Edited by OrangeManiac
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24 minutes ago, Kimikozen said:

I think Hydreigon should lose S tier status. Other dragons in tier can drop nukes with draco and overshadow the niche of the Specs hydrei set. Also, chansey and Eviolite pory2 are new hard checks/counters in most scenarios to Hydrei. Still extremely powerful and probably the best dragon, but A+ IMO.

I'm inclined to agree with this, would like to hear input from others as well.

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