gbwead Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said: Double by the way, guys don't take Bluebreath's post is just a conversation starter. I'm not going to include any ranks in this guide before a sufficient amount of people have agreed on a rank. In that case, I'll make some nominations and comments: Mandibuzz B- rank: Very bulky mon with Roost and a decent Defog user against most walls like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Blissey, Forretress and others. As a special wall, it can switch on most Gengar, Reuniclus and Volcarona which are all very high on the current viability rankings. I suggest the following set, but I'm sure it can be played in other ways: Spoiler Mandibuzz @ Leftovers Ability: Overcoat (not working right now) EVs: 180 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 236 SpD / 20 Spe Careful Nature - Brave Bird - Knock Off - Defog - Roost Milotic C+ rank: It seems to be able to handle various threaths in the tier like Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, Azumarill and Cloyster with moves like Scald, Ice Beam, Haze and Recover. It might become more reliable once it gets access to flame orb. Tentacruel D+ rank: I have seen a decent amount of Tentacruel in OU and imo it is because it's one of best Volcarona counter and people have been struggling to find effective Volcarona counters outside of Toxic Blissey. Conkeldur A+: I think Reuniclus is just way too good now that it has Magic Guard and for that reason I have a hard time considering Conkeldur as S rank. Wobbuffet B+: I think B+ is a minimum for Wobbuffet since it ruins most band users. It's also a real nightmare for Conkeldur, Starmie and others. Gliscor B+: Even though Gliscor doesn't have poison heal, it remains an extremely decent wall. It might not be as bulky as Hippo, but it's much faster and a fast roost can be very useful in certain match ups. It also is very decent against any Lucario without Ice Punch unlike Hippo that takes high dmg from Close Combat. Edited December 12, 2017 by gbwead xXBlu3BreathXx, DoubleJ, OrangeManiac and 1 other 4 Link to comment
soyhector Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said: Hide contents Torkoal C-/D+ No real sun abuser to take advantage of drought, would have to delve into the lower tiers for a sweeper to pair with and even then it would be competing with rain/sand. lol why D+? One of the best spinners, also sets up sunny day when enter to the duel and learns lots of nice moves. If you make it wall stops lots of pokemons, there is no physical pokemon that makes torkoal 1hitKO and you can make some 1hitKO with flamethower. Also learns Shell Smash like a boss Edited December 13, 2017 by soyhector Link to comment
xXBlu3BreathXx Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 20 minutes ago, soyhector said: lol why D+? One of the best spinners, also sets up sunny day when enter to the duel and learns lots of nice moves. If you make it wall stops lots of pokemons, there is no physical pokemon that makes torkoal 1hitKO and you can make some 1hitKO with flamethower. Also learns Shell Smash like a boss I don't believe "one of the best spinners" would be weak to stealth rock and have no reliable recovery move, I get that you can switch this into Skarmory and Ferrothorn with ease but there are many other Stealth Rock setters now that Torkoal can't realistically Rapid spin on them. The main niche for Torkoal is setting up sun and without any viable sun abusers I don't think Torkoal is viable, quite frankly it has a minuscule roll in OU, which it performs quite badly as well because Tyranitar and Pelipper switch in with ease to cancel out the sun. You make a fair point that Torkoal is difficult to ohko on the physical side but realistically you won't be securing ohkos back with Flamethrower (aside from Scizor and some Ferrothorn) if you go bulky. Besides you are better off running Lava plume on a bulky set to up your chances of a burn. With a base speed of 20 I doubt we will see many shell smash Torkoal sweeps. Shuck, razimove and amanisnoone 3 Link to comment
soyhector Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said: I don't believe "one of the best spinners" would be weak to stealth rock and have no reliable recovery move, I get that you can switch this into Skarmory and Ferrothorn with ease but there are many other Stealth Rock setters now that Torkoal can't realistically Rapid spin on them. The main niche for Torkoal is setting up sun and without any viable sun abusers I don't think Torkoal is viable, quite frankly it has a minuscule roll in OU, which it performs quite badly as well because Tyranitar and Pelipper switch in with ease to cancel out the sun. You make a fair point that Torkoal is difficult to ohko on the physical side but realistically you won't be securing ohkos back with Flamethrower (aside from Scizor and some Ferrothorn) if you go bulky. Besides you are better off running Lava plume on a bulky set to up your chances of a burn. With a base speed of 20 I doubt we will see many shell smash Torkoal sweeps. There is no spinner with reliable recovery move. In OU there arent too many pokemons that can abuse of the sun but you can look for in other tiers, for example i use sawsbuck with chlorophyll. Is true that can do nothing against Tyranitar and Pelipper but there arent perfect pokemons, and if they exist they are Uber. If you do a good prediction besides defeating scizor or ferrothorn you can defeat dugtrio, kabutops, excadrill, mamoswine, lucario, swampert (using flamethower and solar beam respectively) some more, in the case you do a bad prediction if you are full ps you wont die of 1 hit. About the Shell smash, if you put 252 speed + speed nature you can reach 158 speed, it is a decent speed you can surpass a high portion of pokemons. Link to comment
Spaintakula Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Don't see bronzong, feel like it should be there seeing how it can easily switch into a few very important high-ranked threats on this list. Another stealth rocker, great ability, no recovery whatsoever though, so I guess something like a C, C+ seems suitable. And gyro ball hurts like hell if you don't resist it xXBlu3BreathXx and OrangeManiac 2 Link to comment
xXBlu3BreathXx Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, soyhector said: There is no spinner with reliable recovery move. Starmie? Regardless we now have many viable defog users, with reliable recovery like Skarmory. In OU there arent too many pokemons that can abuse of the sun but you can look for in other tiers, for example i use sawsbuck with chlorophyll. The problem here is that generally you have more consistency with rain/sand, Pelipper can U-turn to bring in the sweeper straight away and Tyranitar can run so many sets it could take you by surprise and continuously pressure you with the threat of a Excadrill sweep. No doubt Sawsbuck is viable in the sun, however keeping the sun up in the problem, the only benefit that Torkoal has over the other weather setters is the slow base speed to guarantee the sun if you lead it. Is true that can do nothing against Tyranitar and Pelipper but there arent perfect pokemons, and if they exist they are Uber. If you do a good prediction besides defeating scizor or ferrothorn you can defeat dugtrio, kabutops, excadrill, mamoswine, lucario, swampert (using flamethower and solar beam respectively) some more, in the case you do a bad prediction if you are full ps you wont die of 1 hit. Dugtrio would likely be coming in the revenge kill anyway (assuming Torkoal somehow gets a kill), Kabutops should always be on rain, Mamoswine and Lucario generally wouldn't fight Torkoal (if they did Torkoal would be low enough to die from a hit) and Swampert does lose 1v1 depending on the EV spreads. About the Shell smash, if you put 252 speed + speed nature you can reach 158 speed, it is a decent speed you can surpass a high portion of pokemons. Shell Smash is gimmicky, most teams will have something naturally faster to ko Torkoal even after it setup. Link to comment
soyhector Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 hour ago, xXBlu3BreathXx said: Shell Smash is gimmicky, most teams will have something naturally faster to ko Torkoal even after it setup. Just enjoy the gimmicky, yolo :v Link to comment
RysPicz Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Dugtrio surely S, no doubts. It's just so easy to slap this poke into any team archetype it's ridiculous and it will always do it's job. Stall? Banded dug is going to remove serious threats like Tyranitar, Heracross and with some prediction Magnezone. Offense? With sub reversal Dugtrio will punch holes through spdef walls for powerful threatening special sweepers such as Volcarona. Literally, if you have an open slot in your team, Dugtrio will fit right in. I would think about some more pokes when I'm off work but I would surely want to give some input on Dragonite and Gengar which I see as "S" potentials, but I will try to give the reasoning a tad later on gbwead, xXBlu3BreathXx and OrangeManiac 3 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) I'd love to defend my boy Torkoal. I just can't. The most obvious problem is that the overall Sunny Day sweepers just aren't amazing. The special blobs will wall all of the special sweeping variants to hell and back. Now if you run Dugtrio to bring down the special walls, so let's give him that. But biggest and most crippling flaw is that when Tyranitar or Pelipper switches in against those Sunny Day sweepers, rip their chances to Solarbeams and all. One of the only truly viable physical Chlorophyll sweepers is Sawsbuck and it isn't that amazing as it struggles with steel-walls, especially Skarmory. It's far away from being this powerful late-game sweeper even with Sun. I guess you could sort of play around with the reverted weather by running HP Electric or HP Fight respectively to counter those other weather setters but it needs massive amount of prediction and certain situations to actually work. Especially Tyranitar will laugh at any HP Fights and Giga Drains from any of those Sun sweepers after it has reverted the weather and may even start Pursuit trapping these things. There's just so situational cases where Sun teams can work. I'd probably put Torkoal to C- just because if you really put thought on it and support it hard, I suppose you could potentially build a meta-countering Sun team. However, the drawbacks are so evident that it's hard to argue it being anything higher. Actually, now that I put more thought to the Rapid Spinning part, I have to give Torkoal some credit. It can Solarbeam incoming Jellicent which is preventing the removal of hazards. I guess this is a small niche for it as something like Starmie struggles with Jellicent but not enough to praise it too much. This all being said, like mentioned it's weak to Stealth Rocks and needs lots of prediction to play around spinblocking Jellicent. I suppose this would be enough to perhaps give Torkoal C. Edited December 13, 2017 by OrangeManiac soyhector and xXBlu3BreathXx 2 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 Posting behalf of forumbanned LifeStyle. xXBlu3BreathXx 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I can't imagine Dugtrio not being S rank especially if ttar is rated so high. I would also argue that Magnezone would be ranked higher than B rank and Starmie would be more of an A rank than A-/B+ rank if Dugtrio wasn't around. RysPicz and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
semjon Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I'd suggest Hariyama for the OU. It has quite nice bulk, a decent ability, acces to Whirlwind, Knock off, status moves (Force Palm as a STAB move) and it counters/checks 2 of the most annoying special sweepers in the current OU (whose I matched against at least) - Volcarona +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 82-97 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 101-121 (40.2 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 92-109 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 73-87 (29 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 221-260 (88 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO 0 Atk Hariyama Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 188-224 (117.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO and Chandelure 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 118-141 (47 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 90-106 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 97-115 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 67-81 (26.6 - 32.2%) -- 51.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 60-71 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Hariyama Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 72-86 (53.3 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO suigin 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, semjon said: I'd suggest Hariyama for the OU. It has quite nice bulk, a decent ability, acces to Whirlwind, Knock off, status moves (Force Palm as a STAB move) and it counters/checks 2 of the most annoying special sweepers in the current OU (whose I matched against at least) - Volcarona +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 82-97 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 101-121 (40.2 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 92-109 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 73-87 (29 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 221-260 (88 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO 0 Atk Hariyama Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 188-224 (117.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO and Chandelure 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 118-141 (47 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 90-106 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 97-115 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 67-81 (26.6 - 32.2%) -- 51.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 60-71 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Hariyama Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 72-86 (53.3 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO What does Hariyama has over Snorlax as a special wall against Volcarona and Chandelure? Bug Buzz on Lax deals less dmg than Fire Blast on Hariayama if I am not mistaken. I feel Hariyama gets severely outclassed by other low tier mons. semjon and OrangeManiac 1 1 Link to comment
semjon Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 minute ago, gbwead said: What does Hariyama has over Snorlax as a special wall against Volcarona and Chandelure? Bug Buzz on Lax deals less dmg than Fire Blast on Hariayama if I am not mistaken. I feel Hariyama gets severely outclassed by other low tier mons. Whoa... THAT is absoluteley true! I somehow was still in the timeline, where Lax and blissey where Uber, so i used to make some (well working) alternatives. :X At least, it doesn't have a fighting wakness, and it resists stealth rocks. gbwead 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Not sure if it's a thing in our meta but I know that elsewhere, hurricane on volcarona is an option, especially to help with rain teams. Kinda wrecks hariyama, who has no business in OU from what I can tell OrangeManiac, DoubleJ, RysPicz and 1 other 4 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 More whispering from birds Link to comment
suigin Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Quote For some reason expected people to use Belly Darma kek I know someone who wanted to use it. pachima 1 Link to comment
FNTCZ Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 On 12/12/2017 at 4:23 PM, Mnemosyne said: Isnt A rank a bit too much for Tyranitar. isnt it too low? Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 S: Dugtrio, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn (Already gave my thoughts on this earlier, going to start on A now) A: Volcarona: This thing is a special sweeping legend. Being able to easily remove Blissey with Dugtrio allows Volcarona to really apply pressure late game. HP Rock, HP Ice, or even just +2 with Stealth Rocks up breaks Salamence. Dragonite is the better revenge killer with access to CB Extremespeed, but even that doesn't kill the bug. At the end of the day, you better just hope you've got an answer. Salamence: Without Draco Meteor, this dragon's diversity is severely limited. Regardless, it still has many tricks up its sleeves along with incredible typing and a beautiful ability. Nerfed Outrage or not, Salamence is a weapon of mass destruction. Haxorus: Being a pure Dragon, Haxorus has the luxury of carrying only two weaknesses and no 4x insta-kill worries. Add an insane 147 base attack along with the move Taunt, Haxorus can easily DD sweep you into oblivion. Especially if you rely on Skarmory as your primary answer. Blissey: The Pink Blob will never cease to be the premiere special wall in this game, so long as eviolite is absent. OrangeManiac and gbwead 2 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 (edited) About the Hariyama topic, I suppose if your team needs both a Fighting-type (for example TTar counter + general wallbreaker role) and a fairly reliable Volcarona counter (inb4 Hurricane, not meta yet tho) - then perhaps picking Hariyama over Conkeldurr isn't completely out of the question. However, as basically Hariyama is inferior to Conkeldurr in pretty much every imaginable way, I don't think we should give it too much credit. Because, however Hariyama does fulfill the combination of these two criteria arguably the best way I don't think it's completely out of the question to include it in the viability rankings. However, as this role is very niche I wouldn't rank it anything higher than C- for now. Especially because as strong as Volcarona is, we have not yet really found it to be S rank. In general, though: Glad to see this ball have been getting rolling. I'll probably start to include some ranks people are agreeing about to at least some extent and maybe rank the Pokemon according to the average of what people find it. Edited December 14, 2017 by OrangeManiac Link to comment
Kimikozen Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 (edited) Mantine B- / B tier ive been using a haze/scald/defog/roost mantine since the patch and it's done pretty solid. It counters Volcarona, is a nice answer to rain, and is in general just a pretty good special blanket. But the reason why it's not higher is that dreadful SR weakness and I've found that as a bulky water, it can't keep up with the large amount of physical attackers in the tier. I think it could get better as time goes on but right now I'd place it Low b. edit: you guys should try it. It can do some pretty cool niche thingsbwith some speed too, like countering scizor and Hazing BD azumarill. Also, a bunch of shit like Ttar doesn't appreciate switching in to scald because of that high burn chance. This mon is pesky, but it is not a throw on every team mon. It fits well on teams as a piece of a good defensive core. I like ferro/mantine, ttar mantine, and mantine/magnezone. Edited December 14, 2017 by Kimikozen aftershocker, RysPicz, OrangeManiac and 1 other 4 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Kimikozen said: Mantine B- / B tier ive been using a haze/scald/defog/roost mantine since the patch and it's done pretty solid. It counters Volcarona, is a nice answer to rain, and is in general just a pretty good special blanket. But the reason why it's not higher is that dreadful SR weakness and I've found that as a bulky water, it can't keep up with the large amount of physical attackers in the tier. I think it could get better as time goes on but right now I'd place it Low b. edit: you guys should try it. It can do some pretty cool niche thingsbwith some speed too, like countering scizor and Hazing BD azumarill. Also, a bunch of shit like Ttar doesn't appreciate switching in to scald because of that high burn chance. This mon is pesky, but it is not a throw on every team mon. It fits well on teams as a piece of a good defensive core. I like ferro/mantine, ttar mantine, and mantine/magnezone. I highly agree with this. Even though I think Gliscor is the best overall Defogger most due to lack of SR weakness, there certainly are lots of cases where Mantine can be a better option for this role. I agree the biggest is being such a great Volcarona counter and an answer to rain. I would have no problem putting it B or possibly even B+, simply because we don't have that many amazing Defog users for OU. And the entry hazard setters are viable as heck, namely Skarmory, Ferrothorn and basically everything carries Stealth Rocks. Kimikozen 1 Link to comment
FNTCZ Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 On 12/14/2017 at 9:01 AM, OrangeManiac said: I highly agree with this. Even though I think Gliscor is the best overall Defogger most due to lack of SR weakness, there certainly are lots of cases where Mantine can be a better option for this role. I agree the biggest is being such a great Volcarona counter and an answer to rain. I would have no problem putting it B or possibly even B+, simply because we don't have that many amazing Defog users for OU. And the entry hazard setters are viable as heck, namely Skarmory, Ferrothorn and basically everything carries Stealth Rocks. Imo sciz is the best deffoger. gliscor has better things to do with its 4 moveslots. Also. K9 for B-/+ Two nice abilities and it completely wreks havoc with very nice movepool and stats. Also the very fast extreme speed is really valuable. works very nicely as an offensivr pivot and wallbreaker. (please dont use lefties on it) Link to comment
NikhilR Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 On 12/14/2017 at 5:54 PM, Kimikozen said: Mantine B- / B tier ive been using a haze/scald/defog/roost mantine since the patch and it's done pretty solid. It counters Volcarona, is a nice answer to rain, and is in general just a pretty good special blanket. But the reason why it's not higher is that dreadful SR weakness and I've found that as a bulky water, it can't keep up with the large amount of physical attackers in the tier. I think it could get better as time goes on but right now I'd place it Low b. edit: you guys should try it. It can do some pretty cool niche thingsbwith some speed too, like countering scizor and Hazing BD azumarill. Also, a bunch of shit like Ttar doesn't appreciate switching in to scald because of that high burn chance. This mon is pesky, but it is not a throw on every team mon. It fits well on teams as a piece of a good defensive core. I like ferro/mantine, ttar mantine, and mantine/magnezone. I listened to you and tested it, this thing was magnificent as fuck. It has almost everything you want in a wall. Thank you so much for the recommendation. Kimikozen and gbwead 2 Link to comment
Kimikozen Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 34 minutes ago, NikhilR said: I listened to you and tested it, this thing was magnificent as fuck. It has almost everything you want in a wall. Thank you so much for the recommendation. yeah man no problem. I use it on almost every balance team because its super solid at its role. If anyone reading needs further proof check any of my tournament replays ive used in nearly every single game haha. gbwead 1 Link to comment
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